Need Help ID of old Rifle

[Bigcypresshunter]

It doesn't seem to have any identification or serial numbers. I was told its a ladies rifle. Its a cool lightweight cap and ball type muzzleloader. I believe it to be authentic. It might be .22 caliber or .25. Check out the hammer and nipple on the bottom. The only marking I see is hand stamped "A.STORY VT."


Any idea what this is? Help needed from the antique gun people. Thanks

pictures loading very slow and having problems they are so big




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[Oroblanco]

It doesn't seem to have any identification or serial numbers. I was told its a ladies rifle. Its a cool lightweight cap and ball type muzzleloader. I believe it to be authentic. It might be .22 caliber or .25. Check out the hammer and nipple on the bottom. The only marking I see is hand stamped "A.STORY VT."


Any idea what this is? Help needed from the antique gun people. Thanks

pictures loading very slow and having problems they are so big




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Check out this one, notice the caliber is 33:
https://www.morphyauctions.com/jamesdjulia/item/lot-388-story-underhammer-rifle-52518/

 

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[NOLA_Ken]

Looking at the Numrich guns online, they look nothing like yours. So I think you're safe there. Target rifle makes a lot of sense, small caliber and heavy barrel means less recoil and better accuracy in most cases.

It's odd that there's so little info on Story himself, and he seems to be known best for his apprentice Kendall. I did find a mention of him having made traditional long rifles, but I can't find it again, and I couldn't find a single example of one online either. I'm thinking that he was more of a local gunsmith who also made guns, than an actual manufacturer and that there just aren't many out there.

That can have a few implications, it can mean your gun is very rare and very likely original, since forgers would be more likely to copy a well known maker like Kendall than they would a lesser known maker because the number of collectors who would even know to be interested is likely not that big. But.... The fact that his guns aren't well known and likely to interest a fairly small group of collectors can also mean that outside of a well publicized auction people wouldn't know what they were looking at and it might not bring much money even though it's rare.

I think if I was going to sell it, I would contact the Rock Island Auction, or Morphy's / James Julia auctions, their experts should be able not only to authenticate it, but give you an honest appraisal as well. They are the two biggest gun auctions in the US as far as I know, and if there's anyone who can advertise it and get a couple of collectors to fight over it, I'd imagine it would be one of them.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Check out this one, notice the caliber is 33:
https://www.morphyauctions.com/jamesdjulia/item/lot-388-story-underhammer-rifle-52518/

I think DizzyDigger and someone else posted this and maybe its as close as Im gonna get. My caliber is smaller if I measured correctly. My barrel is octagon to round and a few other differences like the German silver, no ramrod but taking a second look its pretty close otherwise. My peep site comes closer to the eye.

Mine is a very small rifle with only an 18 inch barrel. I didnt realize the Asa Story at auction was so small until I put these pics side by side. I assumed it was a long rifle which now looks as if it is not. My photo may be a tad larger.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Looking at the Numrich guns online, they look nothing like yours. So I think you're safe there. Target rifle makes a lot of sense, small caliber and heavy barrel means less recoil and better accuracy in most cases.

It's odd that there's so little info on Story himself, and he seems to be known best for his apprentice Kendall. I did find a mention of him having made traditional long rifles, but I can't find it again, and I couldn't find a single example of one online either. I'm thinking that he was more of a local gunsmith who also made guns, than an actual manufacturer and that there just aren't many out there.

That can have a few implications, it can mean your gun is very rare and very likely original, since forgers would be more likely to copy a well known maker like Kendall than they would a lesser known maker because the number of collectors who would even know to be interested is likely not that big. But.... The fact that his guns aren't well known and likely to interest a fairly small group of collectors can also mean that outside of a well publicized auction people wouldn't know what they were looking at and it might not bring much money even though it's rare.

I think if I was going to sell it, I would contact the Rock Island Auction, or Morphy's / James Julia auctions, their experts should be able not only to authenticate it, but give you an honest appraisal as well. They are the two biggest gun auctions in the US as far as I know, and if there's anyone who can advertise it and get a couple of collectors to fight over it, I'd imagine it would be one of them.

I will have to write all this down. Im looking for an exact match which may never be found. From Wiki

"The American Precision Museum is located in the renovated 1846 Robbins & Lawrence factory on South Main Street in Windsor, Vermont. The building is said to be the first U.S. factory at which precision interchangeable parts were made, giving birth to the precision machine tool industry. In recognition of this history, the building was declared a National Historic Landmark in 1966."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Precision_Museum

So before 1846, firearms were handmade by gunsmiths like Asa Story and parts were not interchangeable. So an exact match may never have existed. Asa Story is best know for training Nicador Kendall. http://www.nramuseum.org/guns/the-g...indsor,-vt)-underhammer-percussion-rifle.aspx

I would be happy to see any example of A.STORY VT. or any Asa Story marking to compare. My only concern is that someone hand punched his name on the barrel. If I can match those punches, which have some unique features, I think it would authenticate it and increase the value significantly.

I think you are correct. This rifle is so rare it may actually lower the value to collectors.

 

[releventchair]

https://www.americanprecision.org/firearms

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

https://www.americanprecision.org/firearms

Yes exactly. The American Precision Museum in Windsor manufactured the first factory made rifles with interchangable parts, not just in America but first in Europe as well, but I lost the page. My rifle from the 1820's or1830's was hand made.

 

[releventchair]

https://books.google.com/books?id=s...CAgQAQ#v=onepage&q=gunsmith Asa Story&f=false



https://books.google.com/books?id=z...page&q=west parish gunsmith Asa Story&f=false

 

[releventchair]

Looking at the Numrich guns online, they look nothing like yours. So I think you're safe there. Target rifle makes a lot of sense, small caliber and heavy barrel means less recoil and better accuracy in most cases.

It's odd that there's so little info on Story himself, and he seems to be known best for his apprentice Kendall. I did find a mention of him having made traditional long rifles, but I can't find it again, and I couldn't find a single example of one online either. I'm thinking that he was more of a local gunsmith who also made guns, than an actual manufacturer and that there just aren't many out there.

That can have a few implications, it can mean your gun is very rare and very likely original, since forgers would be more likely to copy a well known maker like Kendall than they would a lesser known maker because the number of collectors who would even know to be interested is likely not that big. But.... The fact that his guns aren't well known and likely to interest a fairly small group of collectors can also mean that outside of a well publicized auction people wouldn't know what they were looking at and it might not bring much money even though it's rare.

I think if I was going to sell it, I would contact the Rock Island Auction, or Morphy's / James Julia auctions, their experts should be able not only to authenticate it, but give you an honest appraisal as well. They are the two biggest gun auctions in the US as far as I know, and if there's anyone who can advertise it and get a couple of collectors to fight over it, I'd imagine it would be one of them.

Asa may have been quietly , by repeat customers and word of mouth staying busy. Low production (by future standards) and repairs of more guns than those he built in addition.
He seems to have predated any mass production.

A smith I watched working oin some fancy wire inlays estimated 1000 hours into a particular rifle.
Part of that was in repairing the fullstock when some one knocked it onto the ground and the vibrations cracked it....
(That was one of the guys that used a mallet to start a ball.)

Kendall improved upon Asa Story's lock. And went forward (without Asa) into gun building at a time greater production was forming.
Would be interesting to know Asa and Kendalls relationship after Kendall was on his own (or with new partners).
Was it a good one? Or was Asa not impressed with the lock being improved upon and therefore not to his credit?

Asa has been placed in Vermont. Connecticut valley . West Parish so far...
That might help locate more about him.

 

[NOLA_Ken]

Asa may have been quietly , by repeat customers and word of mouth staying busy. Low production (by future standards) and repairs of more guns than those he built in addition.
He seems to have predated any mass production.

I know that a lot of small "mom and pop" gunsmiths would buy locks and barrels and other parts to assemble guns. It's possible Story mostly did that and that most of his guns are unmarked. Maybe these underhammers he designed are the only ones he put his name on, which could also kind of explain the individually hand stamped letters on this gun

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Asa may have been quietly , by repeat customers and word of mouth staying busy. Low production (by future standards) and repairs of more guns than those he built in addition.
He seems to have predated any mass production.

A smith I watched working oin some fancy wire inlays estimated 1000 hours into a particular rifle.
Part of that was in repairing the fullstock when some one knocked it onto the ground and the vibrations cracked it....
(That was one of the guys that used a mallet to start a ball.)

Kendall improved upon Asa Story's lock. And went forward (without Asa) into gun building at a time greater production was forming.
Would be interesting to know Asa and Kendalls relationship after Kendall was on his own (or with new partners).
Was it a good one? Or was Asa not impressed with the lock being improved upon and therefore not to his credit?

Asa has been placed in Vermont. Connecticut valley . West Parish so far...
That might help locate more about him.

The underhammer was patented by Fordyce Ruggles in 1825. It may have been one of the first American patents. Due to a fire the patent file was destroyed or I would have posted it. I dont know how Asa Story obtained it. It was the copycats who gained greater fame than did Ruggles. But it all began with Fordyce Ruggles - the father of the American underhammer. With few moving parts, Ruggle's simple underhammer mechanism could be made by the frontier gunsmith or local blacksmith and with the addition of a piece of barrel, a serviceable firearm could be made rather quickly and inexpensively. Underhammers are as traditionally American as is the lever action repeating rifle. During that westward expansion there was a plethora of underhammer makers producing both singleshot and even a few repeating underhammer pistols throughout the settled East.


Nicadore Kendall was Asa Storys apprentice. They used Remington barrels. I read that somewhere that Kendall was able to obtain a patent. Im assuming on an improvement that you speak of.. I dont know what happened to Asa. Good question.

 

[releventchair]

Yes exactly. The American Precision Museum in Windsor manufactured the first factory made rifles with interchangable parts, not just in America but first in Europe as well, but I lost the page. My rifle from the 1820's or1830's was hand made.

i'd be tempted to dog that museum for more information about Asa .
With their collection they may have touchmarks that match yours. Or at least more info. (?)

 

[Oroblanco]

I think DizzyDigger and someone else posted this and maybe its as close as Im gonna get. My caliber is smaller if I measured correctly. My barrel is octagon to round and a few other differences like the German silver, no ramrod but taking a second look its pretty close otherwise. My peep site comes closer to the eye.

Mine is a very small rifle with only an 18 inch barrel. I didnt realize the Asa Story at auction was so small until I put these pics side by side. I assumed it was a long rifle which now looks as if it is not. My photo may be a tad larger.

View attachment 1736676
View attachment 1736682

Muzzleloaders smaller than 32 caliber are really rare, the reason for it was the difficulty of getting the powder charge properly down the bore, and seating the small diameter bullets correctly (and safely). Try a 32 caliber round ball with a thin paper patch and see if it doesn't go right down, of course make sure you have a ball puller to remove it as well.

Your rifle is a rarity and valuable - please don't sell it cheap or it will haunt you the rest of your life. You will likely never find another one like it for sale at any reasonable price.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

I hate to beat a dead horse but in light of new information that I obtained I'm removing the SOLVED designation. My April 1966 American Rifleman arrived and in an article titled "Underhammer Firearms" it describes the Asa Story mark as a 2-line marking on the barrel, "ASA STORY/ WINDSOR, VT." Unfortunately no photo of the marking to compare the lettering.



On the next page it shows a graceful underhammer rifle made by Stephen S. Baird of Chittenden, Vt. Check out that trigger guard, its a match. And it has the longer peep sight. The only thing that doesn't match is the barrel and patchbox. Maybe someone stamped A. STORY VT. on a Baird rifle thinking it would increase the value? Graceful and high standard of workmanship are great words to describe this rifle. Baird was a gunsmith between 1850 and 1881.

The Baird rifle was a light, small caliber arm for use against small game or at one of the popular "turkey shoots" of the period.

Is it just coincidence? Turkey shoot = no ramrod?

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Check this out this S.S. Baird its the same design just upside down. https://www.invaluable.com/auction-...den-vt-percussion-rifle-34-ca-16-c-96e40adade Coincidence?

View attachment 1738383

 

[NOLA_Ken]

oh boy, the plot thickens....

 

[Retired Sarge]

I just think a lot of gun manufacturers copied each other. The decorations on the rifles of the period reflect what was popular. Example how many car manufacturers put racing stripes on their vehicles.

As for the haphazard stamping of A Story, need to remember these were individually hand stamped letters. Plus gun manufacturers changed how they labeled their weapons. First starting out maybe just A Story, after becoming better known he added the second line.

Don't be too quick fo discount this as not being an actual A Story rifle. Maybe talk to one of the major weapons auction houses to get better resources and help.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

I see it as a very early A. Story mostly because of the old style octagon to round barrel that may or may not even be a Remington barrel. It might be before he started purchasing from Remington. Yes lots of copycats. My magazine says about the Baird rifle

"This rifle follows very closely the style first set by Asa Story in Windsor, Vt., and copied later by Pierson in Rutland, Vt."

That gives me another name to search.

Why did Baird copy the 1830's Asa Story rifle so closely in 1850-1881 and later Pierson but his apprentice Nicadore Kendall did not?

I still think its an early Asa Story but I cant find what I need to prove it. I would like to match the crude hand punched letters or match the rifle itself if I want to get true value I think. So far the Baird is the closest match but the barrel doesn't match. The barrel doesn't match any Asa Story either that we found online. I cant match the barrel, trigger guard, long peep sight, no ramrod or decorations to any Asa Story. But the overall shape is there. The problem is there are so few online. Im gonna search Baird and Pierson to see what I can find but that may be as far as we can go here at TreasureNet.

Thanks for the interest. If not for a few people here I would be talking to myself lol. Actually now that I think about it, Baird probably has his own mark on the barrel.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Pierson in Rutland, Vt used that same decoration.

 

[releventchair]

Unghh.

The Baird inlay being reversed on the Asa (or vise versa) is a head scratcher.
Trigger guard ends ,inlays, a groove or shape of a locks tail were individual flairs that could be unique to a builder...OR a school.That can be from/to boughten,outsourced parts.Or just local "school"/design at the time in a region.
School meaning , regional influence of design.

We have Asa narrowed down to a region.
A region in which he influenced ,and was influenced by. As seen in the works of others.

I'm not ready to discount the possibility of multiple builders influence on the rifle in question.
A broken stock could be a game changer. Or a damaged or simply not of the best quality or accuracy barrel.
Homes caught fire. A barrel might be salvaged...
A builder might be in a crunch for time and acquire a barrel from a source beyond their usual one. If not of their own making.
Or , a customer might provide a lock ,stock,or barrel.

The Baird inlay though....Why would a builder copy another builders inlay? Usually chosen by customers if not the builders personal design...
Unless the shape represents something of a common theme among a school or culture, pineapple,liberty cap, acorn,star, ect..

Edit. By your post above , the particular inlay seems regional. A school.(?) What it represents , I don't know.

The ramrod tip touching the flash cup is interesting...

 

[huntsman53]

ffuries is likely dead on in his statement. The A. Story VT could be the first stamping he used when starting out but like many others, he changed his stamping probably to become more well known as a quality Gun Maker. You may be in possession of the earliest known Asa Story underhammer rifle.