Need Help ID of old Rifle

[Bigcypresshunter]

It doesn't seem to have any identification or serial numbers. I was told its a ladies rifle. Its a cool lightweight cap and ball type muzzleloader. I believe it to be authentic. It might be .22 caliber or .25. Check out the hammer and nipple on the bottom. The only marking I see is hand stamped "A.STORY VT."


Any idea what this is? Help needed from the antique gun people. Thanks

pictures loading very slow and having problems they are so big




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[Bigcypresshunter]

I cant quite see how it attaches but it makes sense its a sight post adjustment thing. That explains the scratches in the wood as it slipped off the bottom mount. Look like a threaded post with a thumbscrew.



Im seeing the same prices for Asa Story but Im not finding this model. I think the possibility exists that its been stamped A. STORY VT. after the factory but I still dont see it as repro. Its still unsolved. Or it might be a very rare Asa Story. The hand punched lettering does have serifs.



Yes I can send some pics if we dont get it IDed here soon. thanks

 

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[Bigcypresshunter]

Any reason why I cant remove rust with Apple Cider Vinegar? I used it to penetrate threads as well in the past.


If you click on my photos, they enlarge quite a bit BTW if anyone didnt know that. They can be enlarged 3 times by clicking on the same photo.

 

[Retired Sarge]

I cant quite see how it attaches but it makes sense its a sight post adjustment thing. That explains the scratches in the wood as it slipped off the bottom mount. Look like a threaded post with a thumbscrew.

View attachment 1728042

Im seeing the same prices for Asa Story but Im not finding this model. I think the possibility exists that its been stamped A. STORY VT. after the factory but I still dont see it as repro. Its still unsolved. Or it might be a very rare Asa Story. The hand punched lettering does have serifs.

Yes I can send some pics if we dont get it IDed here soon. thanks

The post should attached to the striker portion of the sight, it acts as a hinge so the post can be folded up, the post would have a pin on the bottom that goes into the hole on the stock to hold/prop/secure it in position while shooting. Sort of like a kick stand per se. I'll blow the pics up and see if I can't find some details.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

The post should attached to the striker portion of the sight, it acts as a hinge so the post can be folded up, the post would have a pin on the bottom that goes into the hole on the stock to hold/prop/secure it in position while shooting. So of like a kick stand per se. I'll blow the pics up and see if I can't find some details.

Yea i can visualuze that but i cant figure how it attaches to the sight because there is no holes in it. I guess it may attach underneath like a kick stand.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Yea thats it it attaches underneath but i dont understand how it could have a thumbscrew on top?

 

[Retired Sarge]

Any reason why I cant remove rust with Apple Cider Vinegar? I used it to penetrate threads as well in the past.


If you click on my photos, they enlarge quite a bit BTW if anyone didnt know that. They can be enlarged 3 times by clicking on the same photo.

Don't know about using apple cider vinegar to clean weapons. I clean rusty gun parts with transmission fluid and 4 ought steel wool. It will clean without scratching the metal. Just keep the steel wool oiled. I also use PB Blaster with 4 ought steel wool to clean stubborn rust. After cleaning the rust off, I use transmission fluid to coat the metal parts, to include the inside of the barrel.

You'll hear a million different ways to de-rust and clean guns, there are as many ways as there are gun owners.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

I used apple cider vinegar to clean the inside of my atc90 steel gas tank and it worked great! Right down to bare metal. I just let it soak 3 days. I havent tried it on a gun.

I like Linseed oil for protection. It doesnt harm the wood

 

[Retired Sarge]

Yea thats it it attaches underneath but i dont understand how it could have a thumbscrew on top?

Not all are like that, see below pic, I believe the one you posted, what you see as a thumbscrew is the peep sight.

Also I'm only seeing A Story listed as making guns in 1835.

 

[NOLA_Ken]

Any reason why I cant remove rust with Apple Cider Vinegar? I used it to penetrate threads as well in the past.


If you click on my photos, they enlarge quite a bit BTW if anyone didnt know that. They can be enlarged 3 times by clicking on the same photo.

NOOOOO RUST REMOVER!!! Not vinegar or any other chemical! There are good methods for getting rid of the rust without scrubbing it down to metal.

Look into the technique of steaming the steel parts, it will involve "carding" the steel to remove loose powdery rust, generally by VERY lightly using 0000 steel wool and then steaming the metal to convert the red/brown rust (ferrous oxide) to black rust (ferro-ferric oxide) and will also preserve any of the original finish that might be hiding under the rust. I'm planning to use this method on my 53 Enfield which has turned a deep brown over its 159 years. There are a fair number of tutorials online that detail the process, check out this video of the process :

I can't say if this rifle ha any significant value or not but there's no sense risking it by an overzealous scrubbing. Take your time, and maybe talk to some experts before you do anything to it

 

[Reanm8er]

I'm pretty sure Dixie Gun Works sold them in kit form, but that's not to say this is one of them. Most old firearms
of this vintage didn't rust this way because the iron content was different.

 

[releventchair]

I'm pretty sure Dixie Gun Works sold them in kit form, but that's not to say this is one of them. Most old firearms
of this vintage didn't rust this way because the iron content was different.

Clime storage , humidity and salt in air , and if an air/moisture barrier was applied before storage (and how effective it was) all factor.
Fifty years in storage , the pictured piece don't look to bad , all things considered.

A builder I knew peed in a coffee can and put it in the bottom of a wood box heated with a light bulb built to "age" gun barrels in.

 

[Joe-Dirt]

It’s probably a Hopkins & Allen upper hammer ladies target rifle. I would have come in a nice wooden box with a metal ramrod and asst cleaning attachments. Circa 1860’s or 70’s, worth about $400 or $500 if it has a shootable bore and the mechanics work. Needs a good cleaning that’s for sure. Very nice, I’ve had several, they were made in my town for years.

 

[Oroblanco]

I'm pretty sure Dixie Gun Works sold them in kit form, but that's not to say this is one of them. Most old firearms
of this vintage didn't rust this way because the iron content was different.

Nope. None of the modern blackpowder gun makers (or kits) have made kits of A. Story rifles, and certainly not an underhammer like this one which is and always has been relatively unpopular with the market. All old guns rust, and "browning" (a type or rust finish) was very popular in the 19th century. A "plum brown" was highly desirable.

Hopkins and Allen always marked their guns.

This is exactly what I meant in my earlier post.

 

[Retired Sarge]

NOOOOO RUST REMOVER!!! Not vinegar or any other chemical! There are good methods for getting rid of the rust without scrubbing it down to metal.

Look into the technique of steaming the steel parts, it will involve "carding" the steel to remove loose powdery rust, generally by VERY lightly using 0000 steel wool and then steaming the metal to convert the red/brown rust (ferrous oxide) to black rust (ferro-ferric oxide) and will also preserve any of the original finish that might be hiding under the rust. I'm planning to use this method on my 53 Enfield which has turned a deep brown over its 159 years. There are a fair number of tutorials online that detail the process, check out this video of the process :

I can't say if this rifle ha any significant value or not but there's no sense risking it by an overzealous scrubbing. Take your time, and maybe talk to some experts before you do anything to it

My reply was for cleaning gunk, crud, rust build-up or active rust, no so much in removing or altering the patina. Hence keeping the steel wool oiled and using 4 ought, and cleaning lightly. That said I understand what you are saying and why you are saying it, and agree with your remarks.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

It’s probably a Hopkins & Allen upper hammer ladies target rifle. I would have come in a nice wooden box with a metal ramrod and asst cleaning attachments. Circa 1860’s or 70’s, worth about $400 or $500 if it has a shootable bore and the mechanics work. Needs a good cleaning that’s for sure. Very nice, I’ve had several, they were made in my town for years.

The elderly man I know said it was a "ladies rifle" but it must be extremely rare because I can find no example of it on the internet. Its possible that someone hand stamped A.STORY VT. with old serif type punches in an attempt to defraud but like someone said Hopkins & Allen always stamped their guns. Numrich manufactured muzzleloading under hammer guns in the late 50s and 60s as well but also stamped Hopkins & Allen Arms. https://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/threads/h-a-underhammer.109387/

Do any of the H & A guns use German silver?

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

I'm pretty sure Dixie Gun Works sold them in kit form, but that's not to say this is one of them. Most old firearms
of this vintage didn't rust this way because the iron content was different.

He had it stored in a backyard tin shed in humid, rainy South Florida with no oil whatsoever. This weather can rust away an entire car as there are many abandoned in the swamp that are rusting away to practically nothing. Its an extremely harsh climate for ferrous metals even aluminum with corrode down.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

I measured the bore and its .32 caliber. It looks as if the wood is expensive Rosewood, that has been shellacked, which would be hard to imagine used on a 60's replica. I recognize the wood from my work on antique shellacked wood plane handles and unshellacked Rosewood guitar frets. The buttplate, patchbox, trigger guard, and trim etc is German silver. Total length is 34" with an 18" barrel. The only stamp I can find is A.STORY VT. Im still looking for another example of this supposedly "ladies" underhammer rifle. Lots of different ideas but still looking for an ID. Looks like we need your help again ffluries. Nobody can find it. Thanks.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.naturalhandyman.com/iip/infpai/shellac.html

 

[Retired Sarge]

Here's another Asa Story rifle with similar lines, rear sight is different though, sold for $4300.00

LotNut

Another one missing the sight, sold for $575.00

http://www.lotnut.com/app/item.html?guid=7ef5143f-3de3-468f-a7ad-f14364255618

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Here's another Asa Story rifle with similar lines, rear sight is different though, sold for $4300.00

LotNut

Another one missing the sigh, sold for $575.00

LotNut

Those are probably the closest photos yet like you say very similar lines. I notice the sellers of these guns are often unsure what they are selling.

Differences being that my barrel is octagonal only the first 5 1/2 inches, wood is Rosewood and German silver parts. No brass on mine. Im gonna search Dixie Gun Works and Numrich to see if i can find any underhammer kit anywhere with these features but considering everything its probably authentic.

Too bad they dont show the actual Asa Story markings for comparison.

 

[Retired Sarge]

Those are probably the closest photos yet like you say very similar lines. I notice the sellers of these guns are often unsure what they are selling.

Differences being that my barrel is octagonal only the first 5 1/2 inches, wood is Rosewood and German silver parts. No brass on mine. Im gonna search Dixie Gun Works and Numrich to see if i can find any underhammer kit anywhere with these features but considering everything its probably authentic.

Auction houses try to do the best research they can, but as you have learned there is not a lot information on Asa Story, and even stranger it looks like he only made guns for one year, 1835, unless again not much is known about him. But If true there can't be too many out there.

You might need to reach out to a early vintage gun forum, where they live for these old guns to find more information. But in the meantime I'll keep looking and reading.

I don't see this being a kit gun, Springfield, Enfield etc yes, but a little known, early Americsn gunsmith 99% of people never heard of, no, at least in my opinion.