Need Help ID of old Rifle

[Bigcypresshunter]

It doesn't seem to have any identification or serial numbers. I was told its a ladies rifle. Its a cool lightweight cap and ball type muzzleloader. I believe it to be authentic. It might be .22 caliber or .25. Check out the hammer and nipple on the bottom. The only marking I see is hand stamped "A.STORY VT."


Any idea what this is? Help needed from the antique gun people. Thanks

pictures loading very slow and having problems they are so big




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[Bigcypresshunter]

What if Asa Story was asked to make a special rifle for a special lady? .32 caliber, German silver, Rosewood and all special trimmings. Maybe that would explain why we cant find it and maybe that would explain no serial number. What would he do stamp it 1?

 

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[Retired Sarge]

What if Asa Story was asked to make a special rifle for a special lady? .32 caliber, German silver, Rosewood and all special trimmings. Maybe that would explain why we cant find it and maybe that would explain no serial number. What would he do stamp it 1?

The Gun Control Act of the 1968, mandated that all weapons made in the US or imported to the US had to have a serial number. Prior to this date it wasn't a requirement, so a weapon made in the mid 19th Century not having a serial number would be a common occurrence. Especially for a local gunmaker, versus a major company like Springfield, Krag, Enfield etc.

So I wouldn't get hung up on the SN or lack of. I've got a pre GCA 68 family heirloom shotgun that has only 4 letters for the SN, which is no longer an acceptable SN format.

 

[releventchair]

A little more on who may have built it.
This description is of an octagon barreled rifle that was sold or listed for around 1600 dollars.
[STORY UNDERHAMMER RIFLE. Cal. 33. 26” octagonal bbl, marked “A. STORY / WINDSOR VT” on the upper left flat. Asa Story and two of his sons worked in Windsor for over 50 years. Iron trigger guard and buttplate, brass patchbox, German silver cheekpiece inlay. The ramrod is replaced. CONDITION: Fine overall. Traces of original blue on the bbl, which has some vise marks at the rear. Wood retains most of the original varnish with some small dents and dings.]
https://www.morphyauctions.com/jamesdjulia/item/lot-388-story-underhammer-rifle-52518/

 

[releventchair]

A pdf file mentioning Story as a gunmaker that influenced another well known one.
The first known gunsmith in Windsor was Asa Story. With him starting around 1825.
[He started making guns about 1825. While it has long been
on record that he made quite a number of guns, I have also
found rifles made by two of his sons, William and Pascael.
Perhaps the greatest thing that Asa Story did was to train a
certain young man in his shop in the ways of gun making.
This was a man destined to be the best known of any
Windsor gun maker, Nicanor Kendall.
The story is told of Kendall and his girl friend riding in a
sleigh when he noticed a squirrel in a tree. As he started to
draw his rifle from beneath the robe the hammer caught,
and caused the gun to fire. While neither party was hurt,
this prompted Kendall to invent or perfect the type of
underhammer in which the trigger and hammer were protected by the same guard. This was soon changed to the
conventional underhammer without the guard over the
hammer. This type of underhammer gun has several
advantages over the standard side lock: it is an easier gun
to stock, there is a clear sighting plane, no falling hammer
in sight to cause flinching, the exploding cap cannot cause
eye damage, and the lock consists of seven parts instead of
fourteen in the conventional lock.
The manufacture of Kendall guns was carried on under
the contract system in the State Prison in Windsor. The
system of pay at the Prison was that the contractor paid to
the State, not the prisoner thirty-three cents per day for
the labor of each man. If he did not do all that was ]
http://americansocietyofarmscollectors.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/B035_Owens.pdf

 

[releventchair]

Running out of finds with my feeble skills... But not of thoughts.

One rifle marked Asa Story has a barrel marked by a manufacturer/builder.
Barrels ,locks, ect. could be sourced from varied suppliers ,and customer desires.
A smith could often build everything ,but found economy in buying pre made locks ,or barrels ect.

The octagon to round transition of the o.p. may end up a clue in dating the piece should more be found regarding the Story's builds.

Another thought (yep ,always another..) is similar designs are being called "target" rifles.
The rear site being extended must factor. Not as practical in the field...
The next though is that of a "gallery gun" (think carnival or indoor range ,but not for too long) in which a "range rod" /longer ramrod was used for ease of getting a hand on the end...But too long to mount under the barrel. Same with a target rifle.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Trying to get a photo of that peep sight for you.

 

[cw0909]

following releventchair post about the lock found
Asa used the lock and watched the sight being made
just speculating,your gun could be one that Asa did
incorporating the lock and the sight in 1838 or shortly after
not thinking gallery gun, maybe turkey shoot

search term... asa story
American Machinist 1923 Volume 59
Nicanor Kendall percussion lock on Asa Story underhammer gun around 1835/36
and Asa Story, started using on his guns
https://archive.org/details/americanmachinis59newyuoft/page/542



Richard S Lawrence,made the 1st peep sight,on a gun that Asa brother owned
in Asa shop with Asa watching, around 1838
https://archive.org/details/americanmachinis59newyuoft/page/579

asa family
The History of Windsor County Vermont



death

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Running out of finds with my feeble skills... But not of thoughts.

One rifle marked Asa Story has a barrel marked by a manufacturer/builder.
Barrels ,locks, ect. could be sourced from varied suppliers ,and customer desires.
A smith could often build everything ,but found economy in buying pre made locks ,or barrels ect.

The octagon to round transition of the o.p. may end up a clue in dating the piece should more be found regarding the Story's builds.

Great idea. Asa Story used barrels made by a young Eliphalet Remington. If I could identify the unusual octagon to round barrel, I could eliminate any thoughts of replica and know that I have something special. I have tried to search antique Remington barrels but cant find anything much. Maybe its patented and I could try patent searching but my eyes are seeing double after several days and nights searching. Find this odd barrel anywhere, on any rifle and we may have authentication, or not.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/E._Remington_and_Sons

 

[NOLA_Ken]

Great idea. Asa Story used barrels made by a young Eliphalet Remington. If I could identify the unusual octagon to round barrel, I could eliminate any thoughts of replica and know that I have something special. I have tried to search antique Remington barrels but cant find anything much. Maybe its patented and I could try patent searching but my eyes are seeing double after several days and nights searching. Find this odd barrel anywhere, on any rifle and we may have authentication, or not.

View attachment 1728991

Octagonal to round barrels aren't uncommon on early sporting guns, I've seen quite a few. If you want to eliminate the possibility of it being a modern replica take out a couple of the screws and compare them to modern machine made screws. You'll know the difference between a screw from the early 1800's and one from the mid 20th century by just looking at them. Personally I think you have the real deal as I've never seen a repro underhammer gun and I can't imagine there being a big enough market for them that any of the likely companies would make one.

Me personally, I would take good clear pics and send them to the NRA Museum, and the Cody Firearms Museum, and see what they have to say.

Also I found a listing for a similar Story rifle in .33 cal, have you checked the bore with a caliper? Being an oddball caliber is a good indication of an original piece as well

 

[Retired Sarge]

Might need to slug the barrel. Taking a soft piece of lead (Fishing weignt) and running it down the barrel, it will conform to the barrel diameter. This way you can take your calipers and get a somewhat true ideal of the caliber of the rifle.

Here's a tutorial on slugging a M91/30 Mosin Nagant, it explains it better than I can, the same process will work for you.

Mosin Nagant Rifle Bore Slugging Tutorial

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Also I found a listing for a similar Story rifle in .33 cal, have you checked the bore with a caliper? Being an oddball caliber is a good indication of an original piece as well

I cant find my caliper but when I do I will post the findings. This one is still unsolved. Its very dirty inside but I think I see rifling.

 

[Retired Sarge]

I cant find my caliper but when I do I will post the findings. This one is still unsolved. Its very dirty inside but I think I see rifling.

See post above yours on how to slug a barrel to determine size.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Might need to slug the barrel. Taking a soft piece of lead (Fishing weignt) and running it down the barrel, it will conform to the barrel diameter. This way you can take your calipers and get a somewhat true ideal of the caliber of the rifle.

Here's a tutorial on slugging a M91/30 Mosin Nagant, it explains it better than I can, the same process will work for you.

Mosin Nagant Rifle Bore Slugging Tutorial

Yea thats some great information. I wish I could spend all day, every day on these antiques but I have to work on my truck. Thanks for the help, Mike. And if you get any more information from the gun forums it would be cool. I hope you are enjoying the holiday.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Octagonal to round barrels aren't uncommon on early sporting guns, I've seen quite a few. If you want to eliminate the possibility of it being a modern replica take out a couple of the screws and compare them to modern machine made screws. You'll know the difference between a screw from the early 1800's and one from the mid 20th century by just looking at them

I was able to take it apart. Im lucky the delicate mechanism is intact. 50 years in storage probably saved it.

 

[Retired Sarge]

Tell you this, I'm envious of you right now. If I had it, I would be figuring out the caliber and working up a load for it. After a complete break down, cleaning, inspection and reassembly, I'd take the old gal out and let her belch smoke and fire again. I love old guns, their history and love shooting them even more.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

I had to share this one...

 

[NOLA_Ken]

I was able to take it apart. Im lucky the delicate mechanism is intact. 50 years in storage probably saved it.

View attachment 1729537

That tank screw sure looks like an old one to me, I don't see anything in that pic that immediately screams repro to me.

I think I would fill that bore with evapo rust, being really careful not to get it on the outside of the barrel, that will take all the corrosion out and you can run a bore brush and some patches to get it good an clean. Then I would steam blue the barrel and all the iron parts and have a really great looking gun. a neat tip : you can wax the stock with a brown wax toilet ring and get a really nice finish on it without hurting anything. Use a little heat to melt the wax and it will lift off dirt and buff to a nice look.

 

[NOLA_Ken]

Tell you this, I'm envious of you right now. If I had it, I would be figuring out the caliber and working up a load for it. After a complete break down, cleaning, inspection and reassembly, I'd take the old gal out and let her belch smoke and fire again. I love old guns, their history and love shooting them even more.

I have a 3 band Enfield from IMA that I would love to put a few shots through, once I get the bore cleaned and run a camera down it I think I'll take it out and make some smoke

 

[Retired Sarge]

I have a 3 band Enfield from IMA that I would love to put a few shots through, once I get the bore cleaned and run a camera down it I think I'll take it out and make some smoke

I have a 3 band P1853 Enfield made in 1863 converted to the Snider breech loading system with an Oct 1866 barrel. Brought back from Afghanistan, thing is the Afghanis scrubbed the finish off the barrel above the wood line. She's been used so hard, her barrel is basically smooth now, you can just see the scratches where the grooves were.

Oh, and she's an real Enfield not a Kyber Pass copy.