Lost Dutchman Mine vs. Hidden Caches

[Blindbowman]

good morning real de ,, hows the weather .hows the mining going ,,, a ya should know i agree with you ..

" how did he find it originally " thats one of the best clues in the whole damn legend ,, sir!

he shot the 3 Peralta 's and took the mine ...i said i had not seen any human remains . i never said i did not find their 3 graves ..

by law i can not disterb a grave ...in fact i think i did tell you i did find 3 grave markers ..ya had to put two stroies back together to under stand how he got the mine ,,...

 

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[Oroblanco]

good morning real de ,, hows the weather .hows the mining going ,,, a ya should know i agree with you ..

" how did he find it originally " thats one of the best clues in the whole damn legend ,, sir!

he shot the 3 Peralta 's and took the mine ...i said i had not seen any human remains . i never said i did not find their 3 graves ..

by law i can not disterb a grave ...in fact i think i did tell you i did find 3 grave markers ..ya had to put two stroies back together to under stand how he got the mine ,,...

So you accept the version which has Waltz (perhaps with his partner Weiser or nephew) murdering Peralta men to steal the mine. Okay then how did the Peraltas find the mine? Every metal mine known was found in some way, originally. They didn't just always exist, someone had to find them in the first place or they never become mines. So I would like to know how and WHEN the Peraltas found the mine. Thank you in advance;

Gee, maybe for the same reason he said that "no cowboy will ever find my mine..." Can't see it from the back of a horse.

One version of this clue states that no cowboy will ever find my mine, because no cowboy will ever get off his horse to look at anything if he doesn't have to. It is a pain to have to get on a horse if you are tired or not tall or the horse is tall, the ground uneven, some horses will not stand good for mounting etc.

Oroblanco

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Good morning Oro de Tayopa: sheesh you beat me to the question , "how did the first miners find it" .

========================================================================================


BB: you posted --> "

if you got aces you dont play them till its time , to many aces have been busted by playing them to early ..if i lay the cards on the table , the treasure trove will vanish like the beer on a biker weekend
***************

Now you have the picture of my Tayopa, the time isn't right yet! Since it is a legitimate series of adjoining claims of some 2500 acres, it is also registered in the mining office, which is open to the public. So it cannot remain a secret, however the specific details can, and are, being kept as my aces.

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[Blindbowman]

good morning real de ,, hows the weather .hows the mining going ,,, a ya should know i agree with you ..

" how did he find it originally " thats one of the best clues in the whole damn legend ,, sir!

he shot the 3 Peralta 's and took the mine ...i said i had not seen any human remains . i never said i did not find their 3 graves ..

by law i can not disterb a grave ...in fact i think i did tell you i did find 3 grave markers ..ya had to put two stroies back together to under stand how he got the mine ,,...

So you accept the version which has Waltz (perhaps with his partner Weiser or nephew) murdering Peralta men to steal the mine. Okay then how did the Peraltas find the mine? Every metal mine known was found in some way, originally. They didn't just always exist, someone had to find them in the first place or they never become mines. So I would like to know how and WHEN the Peraltas found the mine. Thank you in advance;

Gee, maybe for the same reason he said that "no cowboy will ever find my mine..." Can't see it from the back of a horse.

One version of this clue states that no cowboy will ever find my mine, because no cowboy will ever get off his horse to look at anything if he doesn't have to. It is a pain to have to get on a horse if you are tired or not tall or the horse is tall, the ground uneven, some horses will not stand good for mounting etc.

Oroblanco

Or: So you accept the version which has Waltz (perhaps with his partner Weiser or nephew) murdering Peralta men to steal the mine. Okay then how did the Peraltas find the mine? Every metal mine known was found in some way, originally. They didn't just always exist, someone had to find them in the first place or they never become mines. So I would like to know how and WHEN the Peraltas found the mine. Thank you in advance;

yes i do . for good reasons , every location is not just dot on a map, there are clues that where created when the mine was and anyone that comes in contact with it ..

waltz tells one story the Peralta tell theirs .. but find the common folcrum point between them and fiocus on what they share in common ..in this case the Peralta find the map in the sanata ana church . when they are their checking up
on their land claim the church kept almost all the records in those day much like a town hall or cort house ...

but i do not beleive they found the mine with it . they took it alright .. but the Peralta found the mine why mending feance

the map was never used by them and was locked away and forgotten ..till it or a copy was given to ruth or we would never have seen it at all..we know that the land claim was filled around the time don got his land grant 1609 is the best date i found for this .. the Tayopa was active in these days and the land claim was not as big as it would be after , and the peralta would focus near home in the days of indain raids , we can not find any direct link between the Peralta and the spainish or jesuits , thats what scott was says .. i feel he may be right in that case .. finding a common link would be a psoable dead end that would take a lot of hard work and time if it still exits ..

the main focus is the Peralta do get the map and pass it on ..i beleive the map had nothing to do with them finding the mine ..


walta took the mine .. from what i know about the mine and its location waltz could not have found it on his own .. imposable ..

 

[Oroblanco]

Hola amigos,

Now that we know for certain that Always Lost is in fact the real Blindbowman (unless some impostor is also a good motorcycle mechanic, which seems unlikely) I am going to use his original ID rather than the new one, unless you mind amigo in which case I will use the new one.

Blindbowman wrote

<Oroblanco wrote>

So you accept the version which has Waltz (perhaps with his partner Weiser or nephew) murdering Peralta men to steal the mine. Okay then how did the Peraltas find the mine? Every metal mine known was found in some way, originally. They didn't just always exist, someone had to find them in the first place or they never become mines. So I would like to know how and WHEN the Peraltas found the mine. Thank you in advance;

yes i do . for good reasons , every location is not just dot on a map, there are clues that where created when the mine was and anyone that comes in contact with it ..

waltz tells one story the Peralta tell theirs .. but find the common folcrum point between them and fiocus on what they share in common ..in this case the Peralta find the map in the sanata ana church . when they are their checking up
on their land claim the church kept almost all the records in those day much like a town hall or cort house ...

but i do not beleive they found the mine with it . they took it alright .. but the Peralta found the mine why mending feance

the map was never used by them and was locked away and forgotten ..till it or a copy was given to ruth or we would never have seen it at all..we know that the land claim was filled around the time don got his land grant 1609 is the best date i found for this .. the Tayopa was active in these days and the land claim was not as big as it would be after , and the peralta would focus near home in the days of indain raids , we can not find any direct link between the Peralta and the spainish or jesuits , thats what scott was says .. i feel he may be right in that case .. finding a common link would be a psoable dead end that would take a lot of hard work and time if it still exits ..

the main focus is the Peralta do get the map and pass it on ..i beleive the map had nothing to do with them finding the mine ..


walta took the mine .. from what i know about the mine and its location waltz could not have found it on his own .. imposable ..

The Peralta Land Grant? Are you referring to the very same Peralta Land Grant that Reavis used in his gigantic fraud? The grant was found to be invalid (false) by a US court. Or are you talking about a different Peralta land grant? thanks in advance;

Next - you say that Peralta found the mine while mending fence? What sort of fence were they building/fixing? <Barbed wire was not invented until 1873> Do you mean a split rail fence, a stone wall, or what? Thank you in advance;

Are you also saying that a church map had the mine (or mines, plural) marked on it? If you are saying that the church map showed the location(s) of the mine(s) then how did the church discover the mine (or mines) in the first place? Thank you in advance;

Sorry for so many questions, but this Peralta legend mine(s) had to be discovered in the first place by SOMEONE, and I would like to know who or whom found it, how it was found, and as close to WHEN (what year or a close guess will do) the mine(s) were first discovered.
Roy ~ Oroblanco

 

[Twisted Fork]

Conventional wisdom might agree Jose, BUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUT,

We have to go back to the words of old Jacob Waltz himself:

"No prospector will ever find my mine...."

Since time in memoriam, the conventional way to find a vein of gold is to start panning a stream/streambed moving upstream. The closer you get to the runoff source, the more color you will see in the pan. All of a sudden, you will find no color. You go back to the last downhill runoff and slowly trace it uphill. Eventually you will find the source of the gold.

Waltz knew that. He had been a prospector for many years by the time he made that statement. What that says is that his vein has nothing exposed. Nothing to become placer.

Mike

Oh, there is a placer there. Roosevelt Dam destroyed the water pressure at Fresco spring. It once fed a placer long, long ago as it ground down the rose quartz chimney outcrop of the now buried funnel pit. White men found the placer back in the mid 20th century, but they never found the carefully landscaped mine off in the distance. And yes, the Peraltas picked the canyon clean of any surface sign between the two points.

 

[Blindbowman]

Hola amigos,

Now that we know for certain that Always Lost is in fact the real Blindbowman (unless some impostor is also a good motorcycle mechanic, which seems unlikely) I am going to use his original ID rather than the new one, unless you mind amigo in which case I will use the new one.

Blindbowman wrote

<Oroblanco wrote>

So you accept the version which has Waltz (perhaps with his partner Weiser or nephew) murdering Peralta men to steal the mine. Okay then how did the Peraltas find the mine? Every metal mine known was found in some way, originally. They didn't just always exist, someone had to find them in the first place or they never become mines. So I would like to know how and WHEN the Peraltas found the mine. Thank you in advance;

yes i do . for good reasons , every location is not just dot on a map, there are clues that where created when the mine was and anyone that comes in contact with it ..

waltz tells one story the Peralta tell theirs .. but find the common folcrum point between them and fiocus on what they share in common ..in this case the Peralta find the map in the sanata ana church . when they are their checking up
on their land claim the church kept almost all the records in those day much like a town hall or cort house ...

but i do not beleive they found the mine with it . they took it alright .. but the Peralta found the mine why mending feance

the map was never used by them and was locked away and forgotten ..till it or a copy was given to ruth or we would never have seen it at all..we know that the land claim was filled around the time don got his land grant 1609 is the best date i found for this .. the Tayopa was active in these days and the land claim was not as big as it would be after , and the peralta would focus near home in the days of indain raids , we can not find any direct link between the Peralta and the spainish or jesuits , thats what scott was says .. i feel he may be right in that case .. finding a common link would be a psoable dead end that would take a lot of hard work and time if it still exits ..

the main focus is the Peralta do get the map and pass it on ..i beleive the map had nothing to do with them finding the mine ..


walta took the mine .. from what i know about the mine and its location waltz could not have found it on his own .. imposable ..

The Peralta Land Grant? Are you referring to the very same Peralta Land Grant that Reavis used in his gigantic fraud? The grant was found to be invalid (false) by a US court. Or are you talking about a different Peralta land grant? thanks in advance;

BB: i found a story about don Peralta buying land around 1609

Next - you say that Peralta found the mine while mending fence? What sort of fence were they building/fixing? <Barbed wire was not invented until 1873> Do you mean a split rail fence, a stone wall, or what? Thank you in advance;

Are you also saying that a church map had the mine (or mines, plural) marked on it? If you are saying that the church map showed the location(s) of the mine(s) then how did the church discover the mine (or mines) in the first place? Thank you in advance;

Sorry for so many questions, but this Peralta legend mine(s) had to be discovered in the first place by SOMEONE, and I would like to know who or whom found it, how it was found, and as close to WHEN (what year or a close guess will do) the mine(s) were first discovered.
Roy ~ Oroblanco

the church did not discover the mines , the Indians knew the locations ,it is not clear if the Indians name the mines first or the Jesuits of tayopa name them first . .. IMHO the Jesuits only learn the name of the ma pa mines ,, and when they made the stones they change the name to Tayopa to isolate the mine as there own ..but the fact remains , this tayopa mine was in fact the MA PA first ..we have no real prof when the name was renamed . but we now it was on the stones and we know the stones were made around 1646 or shortly before ...most likely the logic would says the name was changed when the stones were made ..we can say that parts of the legend do not match Kino's account but we know Kino played a roll in the coding of the stones and his description of a event is possible to this location , but his own life time line proves the detail are wrong .. but . did kino here the stories from the tribes and write them as he knew them . and they were much older then kino's story of them ..or are these two diffrent stories that fit one set of details ..?

 

[Oroblanco]

the church did not discover the mines , the Indians knew the locations ,it is not clear if the Indians name the mines first or the Jesuits of tayopa name them first . .. IMHO the Jesuits only learn the name of the ma pa mines ,, and when they made the stones they change the name to Tayopa to isolate the mine as there own ..but the fact remains , this tayopa mine was in fact the MA PA first ..we have no real prof when the name was renamed . but we now it was on the stones and we know the stones were made around 1646 or shortly before ...most likely the logic would says the name was changed when the stones were made ..we can say that parts of the legend do not match Kino's account but we know Kino played a roll in the coding of the stones and his description of a event is possible to this location , but his own life time line proves the detail are wrong .. but . did kino here the stories from the tribes and write them as he knew them . and they were much older then kino's story of them ..or are these two diffrent stories that fit one set of details ..?

So the Indians knew of the mines, but how did they find them? Were they prospecting, or just accidently stumble on them while hunting or..
Now you have gotten me still more confused too. You state that the stones were made around 1646 or shortly before, and that Kino played a role in the coding of them? How? Father Kino was born Aug 10th, 1645 so he would have been ONE year old when the stones were made, by your dating of them. He didn't arrive in Pimeria until 1687. How does this work? I can't make sense of this timeline, or I don't understand what you are saying about how they were created, and how Kino is a factor in their being encoded. Tayopa as a legend runs back well before 1646 too - most sources state it was discovered in 1602 or 1603 - so, what Spaniard or Jesuit was in the Superstitions in 1602-3? Can you name any names?

If you can explain this origin further perhaps it will help. I still don't understand why that 1847 isn't a date, when that seems so obvious. Is it possible that we are just over-thinking this whole thing?

Sign me still puzzled,
Oroblanco

 

[Blindbowman]

the church did not discover the mines , the Indians knew the locations ,it is not clear if the Indians name the mines first or the Jesuits of tayopa name them first . .. IMHO the Jesuits only learn the name of the ma pa mines ,, and when they made the stones they change the name to Tayopa to isolate the mine as there own ..but the fact remains , this tayopa mine was in fact the MA PA first ..we have no real prof when the name was renamed . but we now it was on the stones and we know the stones were made around 1646 or shortly before ...most likely the logic would says the name was changed when the stones were made ..we can say that parts of the legend do not match Kino's account but we know Kino played a roll in the coding of the stones and his description of a event is possible to this location , but his own life time line proves the detail are wrong .. but . did kino here the stories from the tribes and write them as he knew them . and they were much older then kino's story of them ..or are these two diffrent stories that fit one set of details ..?

So the Indians knew of the mines, but how did they find them? Were they prospecting, or just accidently stumble on them while hunting or..
Now you have gotten me still more confused too. You state that the stones were made around 1646 or shortly before, and that Kino played a role in the coding of them? How? Father Kino was born Aug 10th, 1645 so he would have been ONE year old when the stones were made, by your dating of them. He didn't arrive in Pimeria until 1687. How does this work? I can't make sense of this timeline, or I don't understand what you are saying about how they were created, and how Kino is a factor in their being encoded. Tayopa as a legend runs back well before 1646 too - most sources state it was discovered in 1602 or 1603 - so, what Spaniard or Jesuit was in the Superstitions in 1602-3? Can you name any names?

If you can explain this origin further perhaps it will help. I still don't understand why that 1847 isn't a date, when that seems so obvious. Is it possible that we are just over-thinking this whole thing?

Sign me still puzzled,
Oroblanco

do you think all four digit numbers are dates ..?

the jesuits hide vast wealth this is not in question . but the jesuit order was not in one given time span and had one given group of people related to that time span

the fact is KINO most likely never went to the supers before the stones were made . but he played a roll in covering up dirt that had taken place around them .... i can only ask you this question ,, if crystal did not put the stones there
could Kino have put them there and why would he ...?

think about it .. if kino shows up and finds the stones in the Sana Ana church and takes them back and realizes what these sites are , and then hides the stones what good would they be now .. he knew where the treasure was ...

i think what kino wanted he could not find .. dont get me wrong . he knew where it was .. but finding it was much harder then he knew ... the letter tells us the bells were cast in 1603 . and i do beleive i read some data about the jesuits maybe being in this area as early as 1598 ..

but we may never know a set date ..

kino came after the stones had already been given to the church ,, and years had past before he got there .. one account gave .. tells us what the Indians showed kino and he tells them to put the gold back where it came from .. but he never relates that he has found the tunnel i think he found the area but never located the tunnel and that was what he wanted and never found .. so he help pack the dirt on the rest of the legend ...by barring the stones ...he knew with out the other stones in the tunnel he would not find what he was looking for ...

 

[Oroblanco]

Blindbowman wrote

do you think all four digit numbers are dates ..?

the jesuits hide vast wealth this is not in question . but the jesuit order was not in one given time span and had one given group of people related to that time span

the fact is KINO most likely never went to the supers before the stones were made . but he played a roll in covering up dirt that had taken place around them .... i can only ask you this question ,, if crystal did not put the stones there
could Kino have put them there and why would he ...?

think about it .. if kino shows up and finds the stones in the Sana Ana church and takes them back and realizes what these sites are , and then hides the stones what good would they be now .. he knew where the treasure was ...

i think what kino wanted he could not find .. dont get me wrong . he knew where it was .. but finding it was much harder then he knew ... the letter tells us the bells were cast in 1603 . and i do beleive i read some data about the jesuits maybe being in this area as early as 1598 ..

but we may never know a set date ..

kino came after the stones had already been given to the church ,, and years had past before he got there .. one account gave .. tells us what the Indians showed kino and he tells them to put the gold back where it came from .. but he never relates that he has found the tunnel i think he found the area but never located the tunnel and that was what he wanted and never found .. so he help pack the dirt on the rest of the legend ...by barring the stones ...he knew with out the other stones in the tunnel he would not find what he was looking for ...

OK now I got this timeline, thanks for taking the time to explain.
Roy

 

[Javaone]

Jacob Waltz BROUGHT pack animals to the mine.

IF, the mine is a mine of the Peraltas, the Peraltas lost SEVERAL mules at the massacre grounds - from the mine.

Beth

I would imagine that they would bring the mules as close to mines as they could, but ultimately they would have to carry the gold to the mules. Just a thought...

Jerry

 

[mrs.oroblanco]

Javaone,

I have thought about that - however, nowhere, at any time, have I heard that you couldn't walk up to the mine. I realize that, much like other desert mines, there are "layers" and people quite often don't go from the top, then make an adit in from the side (which I believe was supposedly tried by someone). The question, of course, is whether you would have to carry the gold to mules for 6 feet, or 600 feet. (I don't think the mules get "under" the load of gold in either case)

Beth

 

[Springfield]

....The question, of course, is whether you would have to carry the gold to mules for 6 feet, or 600 feet. ...

Doesn't really matter if it's a half mile. You carry what you can and make as many trips as you need until the animals are loaded.

 

[Javaone]

....The question, of course, is whether you would have to carry the gold to mules for 6 feet, or 600 feet. ...

Doesn't really matter if it's a half mile. You carry what you can and make as many trips as you need until the animals are loaded.

Thank You Springy.

Beth - I rest my case...

 

[mrs.oroblanco]

It would matter to me if I had to haul - anything heavy, 600 feet, if I could get away with hauling it 6 feet.

Now, I rest, too.


B

 

[Springfield]

It would matter to me if I had to haul - anything heavy, 600 feet, if I could get away with hauling it 6 feet.

Now, I rest, too.


B

If it were 100 lbs and you could only carry 20 lbs comfortably, you would make five trips.

 

[Blindbowman]

good in theory, both wrong , but sounded good ...

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

HI: Beth is correct, take the mules to the Gold. They can go just about anywhere that a man can, at times may need a little help, but easier if you intend to make more than one trip. The next time that you are in an isolated area just check the game trails. I have used them many times where there were no man made trails.

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[Blindbowman]

sorry real de , she is wrong in this case and now so are you ...lol

 

[Oroblanco]

Springfield wrote

If it were 100 lbs and you could only carry 20 lbs comfortably, you would make five trips.

Blindbowman wrote

good in theory, both wrong , but sounded good ...

Don Jose wrote

HI: Beth is correct, take the mules to the Gold. They can go just about anywhere that a man can, at times may need a little help, but easier if you intend to make more than one trip. The next time that you are in an isolated area just check the game trails. I have used them many times where there were no man made trails.

Don Jose de La Mancha

Blindbowman also wrote

sorry real de , she is wrong in this case and now so are you ...lol

All interesting points, however what evidence is there that Waltz's gold mine is is such rough country that a mule can NOT get right to it? The statement made by Waltz, that "you could drive an Army pack train right over it and not see it" certainly suggests that mules could walk right over the mine, so it sounds more like it is accessible by mule to me. So what exactly supports the idea that the mine is located in such rough terrain that a mule cannot walk right to it? Thank you in advance;
Oroblanco