Lost Dutchman Mine vs. Hidden Caches

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

HI DONNA: Excellent thinking. If Reed's area was below the Dutchman's, or in it's drainage path, then there is a possibility that a lower, still unknown outcropping of the LDM, could be feeding down to where it was / could be enclosed in Caleche - or has in the distant past. Reed could be correct.

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

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[gollum]

Conventional wisdom might agree Jose, BUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUT,

We have to go back to the words of old Jacob Waltz himself:

"No prospector will ever find my mine...."

Since time in memoriam, the conventional way to find a vein of gold is to start panning a stream/streambed moving upstream. The closer you get to the runoff source, the more color you will see in the pan. All of a sudden, you will find no color. You go back to the last downhill runoff and slowly trace it uphill. Eventually you will find the source of the gold.

Waltz knew that. He had been a prospector for many years by the time he made that statement. What that says is that his vein has nothing exposed. Nothing to become placer.

Mike

 

[cactusjumper]

Donna,

What if the Waltz pit mine looked something like this:

Joe Ribaudo

 

[donnaplace]

Donna,

What if the Waltz pit mine looked something like this:

Joe Ribaudo

if it looked like that.no gold would had gotten out.
but
his mine is right below the lip of a ridge.and that ridge at one time in the past had to be much higher.
just a ideal

 

[donnaplace]

dose anyone know about what year Waltz found his mine??
and what part of the Superstition Mountain is the roughest part.?

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Evening my buddy Gullum: Don't ever confuse present conditions with the distant past. This path / connection could have been eliminated any time, say millions of years in the past, and normal prospecting techniques would not apply since it's original path may have been wiped out with time and nature.. Donna may be correct, and possibly opening up a new link for the actual location of the LDM.

Where, when, and how 'did' the Gold in Reeds / Donna's mine originate?
=======================================================================================

You posted -->What that says is that his vein has nothing exposed. Nothing to become placer.
******************
That 'he knew' about. There are many scenarios that can easily explain why today there is no readily found connection between Reeds/ Donna's mine and the ldm, yet they could be connected if one could find the key.

So a circular geochem test surrounding REEDS / Donna's caliche deposit might be interesting.

Do you really care if it is actually where the Dutchman worked, or a separate, lower location of the same vein structure?

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[Blindbowman]

"No prospector will ever find my mine.."

Gollum do you know why Waltz said that .. i know but i wont tell anyone

no more free rides ...

 

[donnaplace]

because if you think lika a prospector thinks. your never find it,
you got to think different . out of the box!!

 

[gollum]

Gee, maybe for the same reason he said that "no cowboy will ever find my mine..." Can't see it from the back of a horse.

I think I explained pretty succinctly why he said what he did.

Best-Mike

 

[Blindbowman]

because if you think lika a prospector thinks. your never find it,
you got to think different . out of the box!!

wrong answer ,sorry

 

[donnaplace]

lol i am a newbe. its going to happen

 

[Blindbowman]

Gee, maybe for the same reason he said that "no cowboy will ever find my mine..." Can't see it from the back of a horse.

I think I explained pretty succinctly why he said what he did.

Best-Mike

no , not even close ....good try ..nothing new there ... try again .. what do you got to lose ...

 

[Blindbowman]

lol i am a newbe. its going to happen

lol you got a better chance then most of the people here they can misled you , set back and ride and watch .. dont let any of them be your friend ,, they will talk behind your back .. their greed will get the best of them .. .. its only a matter of time,,and yes i have found it ...

 

[Oroblanco]

dose anyone know about what year Waltz found his mine??
and what part of the Superstition Mountain is the roughest part.?

Hola amigo Donna,

First, just want to ditto our amigos, don't stop posting if we should disagree - if we knew where the Lost Dutchman was, there wouldn't be any disagreements, so none of us (as far as I know) have found it. Always Lost says he has found it, but won't show us any ore specimen, and the ore is about the only thing that can settle the matter absolutely and in a scientific way.

Waltz filed on a homestead near Phoenix in 1868, and we know he died in 1892 - so we can only surmise when he found his mine, sometime between those two dates are most likely but it could have been even earlier. There are several theories as to when he found the mine, and how many trips he made.

As far as I know, Waltz only ever sold, traded, gave or left in the candle box lode gold. There are a number of lode gold deposits in Arizona that have no associated placer, for various geologic/topographic reasons. While many think that Waltz's mine must not have a placer, it may have a very indistinct, or discontinuous placer; I agree with Gollum's recommended book selection (excellent sources) but these are not the only sources that exist. One version of how Waltz found his mine is that he hired a carpenter in Florence to build him a portable drywasher, and used that to trace bits of float back to his mine. Also, while the entrance to his mine was described as "no larger than a barrel" one version says that the vein actually could be traced quite some distance down the sloped, and showed in the canyon floor; this he supposedly covered up.

As for what part of the Superstitions is the very roughest, just my opinion but the very western end looks like it has to be the worst. I have not covered every inch of the Superstitions however, there may be other parts that are worse still.

lol i am a newbe. its going to happen

lol you got a better chance then most of the people here they can misled you , set back and ride and watch .. dont let any of them be your friend ,, they will talk behind your back .. their greed will get the best of them .. .. its only a matter of time,,and yes i have found it ...

Wow - don't be friends? I respectfully disagree about this. I don't think private messages <PMs> are necessarily what we would think of as "talking behind your back" either. A private message is a private message, not necessarily talking about anyone behind their back. You seem to have a suspicious mind amigo, not that keeping a cautious hand is a bad thing, there are folks here I would not trust whatsover, but some of them I consider to be real friends and I trust them as much as any I met in person. <A short list yes, but I have confidence in them.>

"Yes I have found it" - I still don't know what you found, and you know what I wish to see to become a believer. I can wait, I am a pretty patient fellow.

Good luck and good hunting amigos, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Roy ~ Oroblanco

 

[Oroblanco]

Postscript - dang but I forgot to add this bit;

Yes Mike (Gollum) is right that Sims Ely's book 'The Lost Dutchman' is the only source that interviewed people who actually knew Jacob Waltz, however NONE of our sources spoke directly with Waltz, nor do we have any written words from Waltz himself. The best source we have (Ely) is second hand, and that is a factor to consider for possible errors that creep in whenever anything is repeated from one person to another. (Remember that kids game "telephone") Even a single word being incorrect could result in never finding that mine - as in 'west' when it should be 'east' - and there is the possibility of deliberate falsehoods being introduced into the mix, and in the Lost Dutchman legend there are quite a few falsehoods in that mix. As Mike said, probably a ratio of ten to one, for false versus facts.

The earliest sources tend to be the most accurate in any treasure legend (or history) and there are others who claimed to have known Waltz and spoke with him, such as Reed we discussed earlier. Reed's story appears to be of a placer mine rather than hardrock, so it is questionable whether he knew Waltz at all, but this is one example of a person who claimed to know Waltz and his mine. There are a couple of others found in the pioneer interviews (also mentioned earlier) unfortunately not online, and this is where we find that other version of how he found the mine (using a drywasher to trace float gold). How reliable or accurate those other sources may be is unknown.
Roy

 

[Blindbowman]

you could not locate the mine with a dry washer ..imposable ...

i would have to say 6 by 6 ft or just better , 14 ft deep , you can not see it in the wash .. i know its there but its really hard to locate it .. you can walk past it with out seeing it ....even a good rock hound..

it is a hard rock mine .. there is no water in the area for more then a few hunderd yards but i have not coverd the whole area yet , but none shows up on the maps ..

a cowboy will never find the mine . because ,you could not posable get a horse up there ...Fact ! unless you got a horse that can fly .you would have a better chance rideing a mt goat..if you can ride a horse down that mt let me get my camera it would be a good youtube...one side is almost a straight drop ..i lived in Wym . there is no way you could get a horse up ther e let alone get it down and i have seen some real good riders ..if you try that we would be barring you and the horse ...

the reason i shared this is because i am leaveing ,,, good luck ..

 

[mrs.oroblanco]

Jacob Waltz BROUGHT pack animals to the mine.

IF, the mine is a mine of the Peraltas, the Peraltas lost SEVERAL mules at the massacre grounds - from the mine.

Beth

 

[Blindbowman]

Jacob Waltz BROUGHT pack animals to the mine.

IF, the mine is a mine of the Peraltas, the Peraltas lost SEVERAL mules at the massacre grounds - from the mine.

Beth

true but dose that mean waltz did not carry the ore to the mules..

 

[Springfield]

....
i am leaveing ,,, good luck ..

When?

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Good morning Gullum: You posted --> Gee, maybe for the same reason he said that "no cowboy will ever find my mine..." Can't see it from the back of a horse.
***********

Interesting that he would mention an animal? Two interpretations possible here, since the high one has been explored extensively over the years, with no success, This must obviously mean that it is in an area that ''is' negotiable for animals, NOT on top of an inaccessible mt. / mesa.

As you mentioned, the normal prospecting process is to track the float to the source, so how did he find it originally if he didn't do the same as evidenced by Oro de Tayop's remark of the dry washer? If so, we have a much simpler, faster, and far more efficient way today via geochem testing.

As for water conditions today, sheesh, how many thousands or milions of years ago was the placer formed and from where? Present water conditions have no place in this search. Remember, enormous water flow created that impressive network of deep canyons over eons of time.

So my gut feeling is that it is not up high, perhaps a few hundred ft, but not on top of a high mesa or in an inaccessible area. Perhaps this is why it has not been found. Too many False leads and over-reworked, incorrect interpretations which soon become shibboleths.

K I would co-ordinate his remark of what he saw from the vein and the sun set factors, and look in the lower levels, perhaps even in the bottom lands since he also mentions that you could drive a bunch of burros 'over' it, remember ?..

OK Dejuicy, now you can go get it. Remember, prob N/E of Reeds placer area.

Don Jose de La Mancha