Lost Dutchman Mine vs. Hidden Caches

[Connecticut Sam]

I enjoy reading about the Lost Dutchman mine. Any Updates?

 

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[cactusjumper]

Roy,

I have to say that EVERY period piece I have seen written about the Apache was that one of their trademarks was stripping their white and Hispanic victims of all their clothing and belongings.

The piece by William Edwards was the first one that I had read that said they didn't do that to their Indian Victims.

Mike

Mike,

Have you authenticated the existence of this particular "William Edwards"?

The source for his "manuscript/diary" is pretty shaky, pretty much like the Stone Map history.

Take care,

Joe

 

[gollum]

Roy,

I have to say that EVERY period piece I have seen written about the Apache was that one of their trademarks was stripping their white and Hispanic victims of all their clothing and belongings.

The piece by William Edwards was the first one that I had read that said they didn't do that to their Indian Victims.

Mike

Mike,

Have you authenticated the existence of this particular "William Edwards"?

The source for his "manuscript/diary" is pretty shaky, pretty much like the Stone Map history.

Take care,

Joe

Joe,

If the William Edwards Story is from the same source as the Olbers Manifest, then the Stone Maps History is on very solid footing in comparison! HAHAHA

Mike

 

[mrs.oroblanco]

That isn't necessarily so.

Have you, by any chance, read the most recent results of investigations by Gary Cundiff?

Beth

 

[gollum]

Beth,

I have read it, but as much as I respect Garry's Work, as the President said to the General in "The Fifth Element" ; "I HAVE A DOUBT."

Since my inside source on Travis has never said to me that TT carved the stones. I don't say that it is not possible, and I will be the first to say so if I find out it is true.

Best-Mike

 

[Blindbowman]

Beth,

I have read it, but as much as I respect Garry's Work, as the President said to the General in "The Fifth Element" ; "I HAVE A DOUBT."

Since my inside source on Travis has never said to me that TT carved the stones. I don't say that it is not possible, and I will be the first to say so if I find out it is true.

Best-Mike

dont worry about it mike .. the stones were created in 1603-1609 .

 

[Springfield]

Beth,

I have read it, but as much as I respect Garry's Work, as the President said to the General in "The Fifth Element" ; "I HAVE A DOUBT."

Since my inside source on Travis has never said to me that TT carved the stones. I don't say that it is not possible, and I will be the first to say so if I find out it is true.

Best-Mike

They say I shot a man named Gray and took his wife to Italy.
She inherited a million bucks and when she died it came to me.
I can’t help it if I’m lucky.
Idiot Wind, Blood on the Tracks (1975)

Mike, you must live right - you have more 'inside sources' on numerous 'lost mines/hidden treasures' than anyone I've ever heard of in this field. But, since I don't know you, so I'll have to assume you, like the guy in Dylan's song, are just lucky. Re Travis Tumlinson, it seems to me that his daughter's word ought to weigh pretty heavily in the current debate (and many thanks to Mr. Cundiff for the work that should have been pursued decades ago by the stone boys). Your inside man must be way inside to trump the daughter - maybe he could comment.

 

[mrs.oroblanco]

The problem, of course - which is so obvious that it hurts, is that, as we have seen very recently - supposed reliable "inside" sources can be big fat liars.

Beth

 

[gollum]

Beth,

I have read it, but as much as I respect Garry's Work, as the President said to the General in "The Fifth Element" ; "I HAVE A DOUBT."

Since my inside source on Travis has never said to me that TT carved the stones. I don't say that it is not possible, and I will be the first to say so if I find out it is true.

Best-Mike

They say I shot a man named Gray and took his wife to Italy.
She inherited a million bucks and when she died it came to me.
I can’t help it if I’m lucky.
Idiot Wind, Blood on the Tracks (1975)

Mike, you must live right - you have more 'inside sources' on numerous 'lost mines/hidden treasures' than anyone I've ever heard of in this field. But, since I don't know you, so I'll have to assume you, like the guy in Dylan's song, are just lucky. Re Travis Tumlinson, it seems to me that his daughter's word ought to weigh pretty heavily in the current debate (and many thanks to Mr. Cundiff for the work that should have been pursued decades ago by the stone boys). Your inside man must be way inside to trump the daughter - maybe he could comment.

Spring,

Janie was only ten years old when her dad passed away. About only four or six when he was actively pursuing the stones.

I put it to you:

1. If TT carved the stone maps himself, then why did he take almost a dozen secret trips into the Supers trying to solve them?

2. Why did he NEVER attempt to sell them? Why did he keep them (for the most part) a complete secret from 1949 until his death in 1961?

3. Since Robert Tumlinson was Travis' Uncle, then why would Travis have given him the stones and let him spend several years and much of his meager pension traveling to Arizona trying to solve them?

4. Since Clarence Mitchell was a family friend of the Tumlinsons, then why did he not know that Travis carved them?

5. Since Clarence Mitchell was a family friend, then why didn't Aileen tell him that Travis had carved the stones?

6. If Mitchell knew that Travis had carved the stones, then why did he keep their existence a secret from 1961 until the Life Magazine Article came out in 1964?

To answer your question, YES. My source trumps a 1998 Janie Tumlinson. As far as inside sources on different stories, I have to admit that I have been extremely fortunate in meeting the people that I have met. Some of it was purely by accident, but most of the people I have met have known each other for many years. The real treasure hunting community is not very large. If two or three of them know you and believe they can trust you, you eventually get to meet most of the others. I have been fortunate.

Talking about weird luck; while looking into the Victorio Peak subject, I started learning more about Willie Daught. Then learned he fled to San Diego and changed his name after Doc Noss was murdered. He died in the late 1990s, and it turns out that he is buried in Forest Lawn Cemetery less than three blocks from my office. From New Mexico to San Diego, to Glendale, Ca. THAT, my friend, is the kind of strange luck I have. LOL

Mike

 

[mrs.oroblanco]

Mike,

We really don't know if Mitchell knew it or not. We DO know that Mitchell planned on using the stones to get investors. We have that in his own meeting notes.

Adding to the questions, though.

Why did Tumlinson change his name for the story? Why do the stones look like they have 2 different types of carving. Why does DA (the only folks who have ever really written about them after physically looking and touching them) think they are not authentic?

How do we know, for sure, that Mitchell didn't know they were carved by TT?


If you wanted to use something to con folks - why would you sell them? They are worth more using them the way Moel did - to raise revenue for operating capital.

Is is possible that TT went into the mountains to add authenticity to his story?

Tiring of that, why wouldn't he send his uncle to do the exact same thing - or that his uncle was part of the story?


And, last, by not least - some "great inside sources" have turned out to be "real big fat liars".

We have recently been very exposed to THAT fact.


Beth

 

[Blindbowman]

you guys have the best source to translating the stones right here talking to you ...lol

 

[gollum]

Beth,

First, Travis T NEVER changed his name for anything. Mitchell changed TT's name for his own purposes.

The minutes of which you speak were from December of 1963. Look at ALL the minutes Eberstein reported on:

From November 1960 (three years earlier) "It was suggested that we look for treasure in the Superstitions [a mountain near Apache Junction, Arizona], work to begin as we can become equiped (sic) to do so..."

What that says is that for the first three years of ownership, Mitchell and MOEL were going to use the stones to find a treasure in the Supers. THAT says to me that Mitchell believed the stones to be authentic. You should also reread the Peck Letters. The picture painted of Mitchell says that he faithfully believed in the authenticity of the stone maps, and also that his interpretation was the only one that mattered. He had become obsessed.

Mike

 

[Springfield]

....
Spring,

Janie was only ten years old when her dad passed away. About only four or six when he was actively pursuing the stones.

I put it to you:

1. If TT carved the stone maps himself, then why did he take almost a dozen secret trips into the Supers trying to solve them?

2. Why did he NEVER attempt to sell them? Why did he keep them (for the most part) a complete secret from 1949 until his death in 1961?

3. Since Robert Tumlinson was Travis' Uncle, then why would Travis have given him the stones and let him spend several years and much of his meager pension traveling to Arizona trying to solve them?

4. Since Clarence Mitchell was a family friend of the Tumlinsons, then why did he not know that Travis carved them?

5. Since Clarence Mitchell was a family friend, then why didn't Aileen tell him that Travis had carved the stones?

6. If Mitchell knew that Travis had carved the stones, then why did he keep their existence a secret from 1961 until the Life Magazine Article came out in 1964?

To answer your question, YES. My source trumps a 1998 Janie Tumlinson. As far as inside sources on different stories, I have to admit that I have been extremely fortunate in meeting the people that I have met. Some of it was purely by accident, but most of the people I have met have known each other for many years. The real treasure hunting community is not very large. If two or three of them know you and believe they can trust you, you eventually get to meet most of the others. I have been fortunate.

Talking about weird luck; while looking into the Victorio Peak subject, I started learning more about Willie Daught. Then learned he fled to San Diego and changed his name after Doc Noss was murdered. He died in the late 1990s, and it turns out that he is buried in Forest Lawn Cemetery less than three blocks from my office. From New Mexico to San Diego, to Glendale, Ca. THAT, my friend, is the kind of strange luck I have. LOL

Mike

I don't know if your questions can ever be answered cleanly - my responses would certainly be speculation. All I am sure about is that the provenance of the stone maps, with the Tumlinsons as protagonists, is highly suspect, and by extension, so are the stones themselves and all that surrounds them. These carvings have a purpose, but I haven't seen anything conclusive as to what the purpose is.

That's a good story about Daught's path ending near your doorway. I wasn't trying to gig you about your TH 'luck' - I wanted to hear your response. I can accept your synchronicity explanation ('many are called, but few are chosen'), but my experience with 'insiders' is that most either want money or attention, the former type reluctant at first then very convincing, and the latter too eager at first and naggingly zealous. Human behavior is very predictable and, by nature, those who hold some terrible secret do tend to want to talk, but they nearly always obfuscate the secret. Why would they reveal something so important?

 

[mrs.oroblanco]

Clarence Mitchell used Travis Tumlinson's story in Life magazine, writing under the name Travis Marlowe. Interesting that he used the first name, Travis - isn't it?


In a letter, from Mel Brower (an associate who was involved with the stones), to Peck, spoke specifically, about Travis Tumlinson altering the stones.
A short quote from that letter:

"Bob Bair at this point stated: - there is something I think you should know. The zeros cut across the back side of the heart were carved there by Travis Tumlinson himself after he found the stones. He stated that Travis did this to throw any one off guard who might see or steal the stones. (I rather suspect he did this to further entice financial assistance)" unquote.

Another thing interesting about TT, is the fact that - though a police officer in Oregon, his police file just upped and disappeared - and, strangely enough - so did all his medical files. Hmmmmmmm. Almost like he didn't really exist under that name.

There are many, many more things that make this a strange story, to say the least.

Beth

 

[somehiker]

Too bad really,that Tumlinson's relatives, "Joe" and his mother,would not allow Garry to photograph the large "stone tablet" which he and Carol were shown during their visit with them.Perhaps he will describe it ,or provide a sketch from memory in a further post.

Regards:SH.

 

[cactusjumper]

Wayne,

Knowing Garry, I would not be so sure that he did not eventually get that picture.

Take care,

Joe

 

[gollum]

SH,

I don't doubt that every word of what Garry posted actually was said. Garry's research has always been totally beyond reproach. My only doubt is the veracity of the teller. I think there may have been other motives at play for her to say what she said about her dad. I don't even say it wasn't true. I am only saying that I have just as good reasons for believing the opposite.

Spring,

I completely agree with your opinion regarding most "insiders". My definition of "insider" and yours are a bit different I think though. There are people who have become well known and others that loudly proclaim to be "insiders". The real "insiders" I am talking about you mostly would have never heard of them. They are in it strictly for the pot at the end of the rainbow. They seek no fame at all. I would even go so far as to say that they actively look to not be famous. It would be a big hindrance to keeping a found treasure secret. These guys have a lot of money, but you would never know it to talk to them. The money they made from treasure hunting is tied up in offshore accounts, LLCs, property investments, etc. For the most part, they are a secretive bunch that troll treasure websites but NEVER post.

Usually, the ones that get reality TV Shows, are in the news, writing books, etc. are usually people that need public feedback to feed their egos. Most have never found anything of any consequence, neither has anybody who followed their instructions either. The only one I can attest that actually found substantial treasures, and I have been able to verify a lot of their "clues" and "interpretations" in the field is Chuck Kenworthy. Since I have access to much of his original research from the areas I hunt, I can without a doubt attest that the meanings he gives in his books are for the most part accurate.

Best-Mike

 

[somehiker]

Joe:
If so,then I hope that he will include the photos (it was described as being carved both front and back) in a future instalment.
Same for any pictures that he was able to take of the other carvings mentioned in his account.

Mike:
Nor do I.
I also have a great deal of respect for Garry and his work.

Regards:Wayne

 

[gollum]

Beth,

As far as the Melford Brower Letter; I can only say that not one person has EVER come forward to state that Travis Tumlinson approached them for financial assistance regarding the stones.

I will argue that point to the grave. While I have to admit the possibility of the "stolen from Arizpe Mission" story, I highly doubt it, and have absolutely no reason to doubt the version told by Travis Tumlinson to his Uncle Robert. Tumlinson has never been proven to have lied about ANYTHING in relation to the stones.

Best-Mike

 

[Springfield]

.... Usually, the ones that get reality TV Shows, are in the news, writing books, etc. are usually people that need public feedback to feed their egos. Most have never found anything of any consequence, neither has anybody who followed their instructions either. The only one I can attest that actually found substantial treasures, and I have been able to verify a lot of their "clues" and "interpretations" in the field is Chuck Kenworthy. Since I have access to much of his original research from the areas I hunt, I can without a doubt attest that the meanings he gives in his books are for the most part accurate.

Best-Mike

I guess we differ here. I realize that Kenworthy, like von Mueller, Dobie, and other notables, is considered a demigod by many. However, even though these guys shared some useful things, I believe for the most part they were disinformationists. They knew human psychology, first and foremost.