Lost Dutchman Mine vs. Hidden Caches

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Hola amigos,

It is presumption to connect the pile of ore and pack saddle found by Silverlock and Malm with the Peralta massacre, especially since it was not found at Massacre field. The ore they found, could have come from miles away, literally, perhaps tens of miles, lost by a Spaniard, Mexican or American, due to Indian attack or just because a quail spooked the mule and it took off on the owner. If you have done any horse or mule packing in the tall tules, you know exactly what I am talking about. It is tempting to connect the dots, but may not be justified.

There is a newspaper account of a massacre of a band of Pimas in the Superstitions, of which there were two survivors, a boy and a girl; the boy was taken in by a local family and raised, and the time period for the massacre would be before the finding of the skeletal remains by Army scouts. Three men viewed those remains, one of them believed it was a party of Mexicans due to the gold tooth, the other scout and the officer both concluded the victims were Indians, likely Pimas. It would be presumption to conclude that a set of skeletal remains must be Mexican due to the presence of a gold tooth, for even some of the wildest Apaches are known to have gotten "western" dental work, including none other than the Apache Kid. So, YES, there was a massacre, it is documented in an Arizona newspaper, even the name of the surviving boy. This is why the Army did not find scattered mining tools, pots, pans etc as you would expect to be left if the victims had been Mexican or Anglo, as Apaches would not take such useless things. <They might punch holes in the pans however> If we believe trooper Green, he claimed to have also found a pouch of gold and that "seals" it for the Peralta massacre for some folks, however even Apaches are known to have gathered gold to trade for guns, powder etc and Pimas definitely owned and operated mines so it would not be safe to make any conclusions on that either. <Kino wrote that one group of Indians asked how much gold and silver they would need to get from their mines in order to "buy" a padre for their tribe.>

There is also a newspaper account of two men named Peralta coming in to Phoenix; one wounded from being attacked by Apaches while they were mining - in the Goldfield hills. Of course, some folks put zero faith in anything published by a newspaper.

Most legends are based on facts, and I strongly suspect this massacre and the Peralta incident are the roots of the legend of a Peralta massacre, having been confabulated by time and treasure writers. A real massacre, and real Peraltas whom were attacked by Apaches and survived, became blended into a single much more romantic event.

Oroblanco
 

Mike,
ooops - just read it *red face*
I do apologize - not very smart of me, was it? I actually _have_ read the 'bible' before, but that particular part I must have slipped up on :-(
Guess it was rather early in my efforts and there were other things that interested me more at that time ... guess its time to read it all again ...

Per
 

Anyone remember stories from one of the old printings where a funnel was found years ago by someone walking along up high and the ground suddenly settled some under his feet? It was hard to get to, but after some work excavating it, they found sections of timber layers and goat blood concrete as they worked their way down. Something scared them out of the area, some activity. Don't remember much more than that, but they were sure they had found it.
 

No, I sure don't recall ever running across a report like that - I did find a couple on the old lost Black Maverick mine, in which the maverick bull's foot went through the ground and rotted timbers in one version, in the other the cowboy's horse stuck his foot through it and it was then cleaned out, but that is not even in the Superstitions. Can you recall any other details? Thank you in advance,
Oroblanco
 

I'm sure the book was in the archives or maybe in the book "The killer Mountains". Can't be sure other than it was a very early story when Apache were still somewhat of a worry. In and around the Superstitions. Early 1900's ?
 

I don't have "Killer Mountain" so can't look that one up, but I now will keep an eye open, thanks for telling us about it. :icon_thumright:
Roy
 

I have it.

I believe that what you are thinking of is the story of a man who was hiking in the Supers and his foot slipped into a hole and he broke his leg (I think). When he looked into the hole, he saw a larger space and a solid gold statue.

The story was not related to the DLM but to the Jesuit Treasure supposedly hidden in the Supers.

Best-Mike
 

what happen .. did you guys all get drunk at the same time ... wow ...

yes the story was in the killer mts . and he fell in the hole and saw the statue after he got his bearings ..


"The story was not related to the DLM but to the Jesuit Treasure supposedly hidden in the Supers."

are you kidding . your going to set here now and tell us you dont under stand whats going on or know about this story mike ..

come on .. you got to be kidding right ... i am just not going back and starting over trying to help you all under stand the basics .. to late for that .. latter
 

Oroblanco said:
...... This is why the Army did not find scattered mining tools, pots, pans etc as you would expect to be left if the victims had been Mexican or Anglo, as Apaches would not take such useless things. ....

On the contrary, the Apache coveted exactly such things. Their routine raidings of Mexican/Anglos were planned to steal livestock primarily, but they also carried off anything else usable - especially weapons, cookware, clothing, tools, and metal that could be worked into arrowheads. This behavior is mentioned in a legion of books, but a particularly excellent read is a collection of interviews with surviving old warriors compiled ca 1930 - Western Apache Raiding and Warfare, from the notes of Grenville Goodwin, University of Arizona Press.
 

cactusjumper said:
Per,

There was a time when I would have taken that story from Mrs. Corbin's book and defended its truth with everything I have. Circumstances have changed my attitude in the last year or so. :(

While the story may be true, I would not speak one word in its defense today. I would suggest that you read it with the possibility in your mind.....that it is complete fiction.

Take care,

Joe

Joe, would you like to expand on that? (ie can you give us (one or more) reason why you no longer completely trust it??)

Per
 

Springfield said:
Oroblanco said:
...... This is why the Army did not find scattered mining tools, pots, pans etc as you would expect to be left if the victims had been Mexican or Anglo, as Apaches would not take such useless things. ....

On the contrary, the Apache coveted exactly such things. Their routine raidings of Mexican/Anglos were planned to steal livestock primarily, but they also carried off anything else usable - especially weapons, cookware, clothing, tools, and metal that could be worked into arrowheads. This behavior is mentioned in a legion of books, but a particular excellent read is a collection of interviews with surviving old warriors compiled ca 1930 - Western Apache Raiding and Warfare, from the notes of Grenville Goodwin, University of Arizona Press.

Springfield,

You are correct. Grenville's "Among The Western Apache" and "The Apache Diaries" are also good sources. "The Apache Diaries" was compiled by Grenville's son, using his father's notes.

Take care,

Joe
 

Per,

"Joe, would you like to expand on that? (ie can you give us (one or more) reason why you no longer completely trust it??)"

The source has proven to be.......questionable. Just my personal opinion, others should follow their own opinions, but I would urge caution when quoting/believing accepted stories from modern-day "experts". :dontknow:

Take care,

Joe
 

so your saying dont beleive you ...?

i cant wait to meet you joe you must be a totally diffrent person in real life ... i can only hope ...

your saying you dont beleive the MRS Corbin book or given parts of it ....it was the next book on my list ...lol

i think i beleive you before i beleived any of the books out there joe .. 54 years you had to have some idea of how to waste time ...
 

The buried pit and statue come across to me as being more than similar to the money pit of "Oak Island" and with this as the other I believe that both of them were a misleading trap to keep the French busy and distracted with lust. Lust was their greatest weapon against treasure hunters then and now. Just another salted trail and probably a group of Jesuits in control of any number of native slaves with little better to do.
 

Twisted Fork said:
The buried pit and statue come across to me as being more than similar to the money pit of "Oak Island" and with this as the other I believe that both of them were a misleading trap to keep the French busy and distracted with lust. Lust was their greatest weapon against treasure hunters then and now. Just another salted trail and probably a group of Jesuits in control of any number of native slaves with little better to do.

what happen to the UFO...?
 

please Real De talk some logic to these guys ... their loosing it ...lol :hello2: :hello:
 

cactusjumper said:
Springfield said:
Oroblanco said:
...... This is why the Army did not find scattered mining tools, pots, pans etc as you would expect to be left if the victims had been Mexican or Anglo, as Apaches would not take such useless things. ....

On the contrary, the Apache coveted exactly such things. Their routine raidings of Mexican/Anglos were planned to steal livestock primarily, but they also carried off anything else usable - especially weapons, cookware, clothing, tools, and metal that could be worked into arrowheads. This behavior is mentioned in a legion of books, but a particular excellent read is a collection of interviews with surviving old warriors compiled ca 1930 - Western Apache Raiding and Warfare, from the notes of Grenville Goodwin, University of Arizona Press.

Springfield,

You are correct. Grenville's "Among The Western Apache" and "The Apache Diaries" are also good sources. "The Apache Diaries" was compiled by Grenville's son, using his father's notes.

Take care,

Joe

I have to respectfully disagree on this one; even in the Waltz story, he finds a pot that had holes in it; I can't recall instantly whether Bark or Ely thought this detail was not true because he could not believe any Apache would waste ammo on shooting holes in a pot, but the holes could have been made with a pick pretty easily, and Indians were not so careful of wasting ammunition in general. One look at a photo of an attack site will verify this; plenty of arrows and bullets wasted. Heavy, thick iron items like picks, cast iron pots etc were not useful for making arrows or knives, especially with the primitive techniques available to Apaches at the time. Weapons obviously would be recovered, but anything not immediately useful would more likely be simply broken or spoiled in some manner, a "ceremonial killing" of the item. (Beth and I recently visited a Sioux ambush site, where all kinds of belongings had been left by the attackers, broken to pieces or with holes shot in them, but the guns and knives of the victims were missing when found by Americans.) Picking up or leaving such things as iron pots or mining picks would be largely at the caprice of the particular warrior who stood victorious on the spot. Obviously some times the warriors would take such things for future use or trade, but not on every occasion.
Oroblanco
 

Roy,

I have to say that EVERY period piece I have seen written about the Apache was that one of their trademarks was stripping their white and Hispanic victims of all their clothing and belongings.

The piece by William Edwards was the first one that I had read that said they didn't do that to their Indian Victims.

Mike
 

Blindbowman said:
please Real De talk some logic to these guys ... their loosing it ...lol :hello2: :hello:

The mines have traps and so do the trail. The folk heroes you have been reading about, who's skeletons have been found in the Supers with gold on their persons in the last century, were victims of those very much intended and well arranged traps. Folks who would be a threat to the Peralta trail.
 

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