Do you have PROOF of a KGC treasure?

[truckinbutch]

What would constitute PROOF of a KGC treasure in YOUR mind?

This isn't a thread for booksellers. If you want to hawk your wares, this ain't the place, go and find your naive marks elsewhere.

What I want to know is quite simple, and it may be that my standards of proof don't agree with the other folks here so I'll explain what I see as proof.

To me, PROOF means something TANGIBLE! You can see it. You can feel it with your hands, not your heart or mind.

Proof is not a 150 year old paper that can neither be proven or disproven.

Proof is not a 150 year old story that has been handed down for at least 4 generations, with all the inaccuracies that it entails.

Proof is not an allegation that a large part of the Confederate treasury did not make the entire trip it was supposed to. Those people are dead. You can't call them to account for their statements.

On the other hand,

Proof IS a photograph of the treasure before it is removed with or without the one who found it.

Proof IS a photograph of the place the treasure was removed from with or without the one who found it.

Proof IS copies of the documentation you used to locate the treasure, as in "this is how to find it".

Proof IS the documentation that led you to a treasure that someone else had already taken -- along with pictures of where the treasure HAD BEEN.

Somebody prove me a liar when I say that these types of treasures do not exist. I would like to believe the stories I read, the legends I hear, and the signs that others tell me about as well as those I have personally seen.

Just seeing signs is not proof. Anyone like me could have made them so that you could spend your life running in circles. I love to stir things up, as you can see from my posts. I know I'm not the only one who would get a big laugh out of something like that.

The outboard motor is firmly attached to the cesspool, the starter is engaged, let's stir some crap!

OK! The crap has hit the fan.The Civil war had left it's mark in VA and NC.Without doubt monies were hoarded by the Southern Gov't at the end of the War in hopes that it wasn't the end.Clanishness and Fellow Travelers protected these stashes until it was determined that the South would not rise again as a separate entity. Distributions were then made on an as needed basis to preserve political and social structures.
My mother's family benefited from this to the point that she was given $100 in gold coin when she produced a male heir(me)in 1950 with the advice that she be cautious in disposing old gold coinage.That was beyond what she had been given as a dowrie.
I was always well received by her brothers and uncles when I went to visit because I went to visit rather than beg.
This is disjointed for those not 'country'enough to understand.

 

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[lamar]

Dear beale;
It's now time to throw a few darts into those charts, my friend.

In the chart which you've so thoughtfully provided, the state Virginia of shows revenue collected in excess of 135,000,000.00$ on cotton, wheat and corn exports, yet, oddly enough the Gross Domestic Product for ALL combined exports for the ENTIRE United States was a paltry 69,346,000.00$. In other words, the taxes collected on the combined corn, corn and wheat products for a single state outstripped the entire GDP for the entire USA by more TWO TIMES!!!

The figures you've posted are so astronomically inflated that they are laughable. Do you realize that if the taxes on the combined corn, wheat and cotton exprts for the Southern states were real, then they would have outstripped the GDP for the ENTIRE WORLD in 1860

Let us all bear in mind that the figures posted by beale are NOT of the actual VALUESof the products, rather they supposedly represent the taxes which were COLLECTED on the products. This would mean that the products themselves would have had to represent an actual value of 15 to 20 times more than the alleged taxes which were supposedly collected. Those posted charts are simply a fabrication of a highly overactive imagination, my friends.

As a footnote, the figures which I've posted come directly from US government historical data and they are generally believed to be accurate within + or - 2%.
Your friend;
LAMAR

 

[Rennwaggen]

Beale and Lamar, thanks for sharing your views on what research you have done.

OK folks, we seem to have drifted a little ways from what I had in mind. It is probably because I never explained WHY I wanted proof as to whether these things caches ever really existed.



I have some signs that another forum member has turned over to me, which they believe are KGC. They are not interested in following them, but I have been there and seen these bent trees and some others . . . including the 2 "4" trees. One 4 tree is on private land within 20 yards of the land owner's home. Got a very close look while "asking for directions" when I commented on the strange tree in their yard. It's not an accident of nature. From where this tree is located, it is less than 100 yards to two other of the bent trees. Both trees are visible from the highway, with the owners having cleared the areas where they set.

Now, some say Indians, some say KGC, some say Outlaws.

I hope someone can give me evidence that there really were some huge caches. The problem comes with documentation here. There are no records, no old stories, no reason to believe that there ever was KGC activity in this area. So far, I have not found any trees with carvings on them in this area.

The only "gold" stories here are one about a Confederate payroll being lost . . . and one of a plantation owner who was buried by his slaves with 10 grand in gold coin in an old slave's cemetery. One of his slaves actually lies in his grave according to the story.

 

[truckinbutch]

I have disagreed rather strongly with Mr.Atwell in a couple of areas but have to agree with him on this.

 

[Rebel - KGC]

Yeah... gotta look for "thong/sinew scars" on those trees, too.

 

[Old Dog]

Thong trees are good
but these guys also grafted trees to grow what they wanted.

You may find an apple tree with several different kinds
or a peach tree that has plums as well

weird stuff

 

[Rennwaggen]

Yeah... gotta look for "thong/sinew scars" on those trees, too.

yep rebel, got 'em. Next thing you know somebody is gonna tell me they're indian trees.

 

[Timberwolf]

beal,

As much as I would like to believe in a large KGC cache, buried in this cemetery......I can't see the writing on your map pic either.

Can you take a better photo/scan, and email it to me?
Thanks,

TW

 

[dragon6banger]

why cant people believe in what they want to if us Southerners want to believe theres a treasure then let us believe don't most northerners believe William kid stashed away a treasure up you'lls way

 

[gldhntr]

this thread seems to have gotten off line a bit...from proof of kgc treasures to city maps of a cemetery...the top secret map can be had for 8 bucks compliments of the danville engineers office....common sense would prevail on the thinking that when a fellow was paid in 1880 to redraw the cemetery that instead of actually redrawing it, it would be alot easier to change the old one a bit, erase this, add that, and get paid for the complete job..see if i can put it in terms you may understand......kind of like if you had a white pre fab house sitting behind your trailer collecting dust...someone wanted a grey one..so instead of going to work, and building another for minions wages you simply take the one you have, dust it off, and paint it a bit...make sense ?

i am glad to see we have another self made kgc expert...bet you are a wealth of information being as about two years ago your reply to someone talking about kgc was '' what is kgc ?

this kgc , was it by chance the '' Kitchen Girls Club'' ? reason i ask is related to the rich danvillians ans richmonders you speak of building the Confederate monument in green hill to hide whatever you are talking about...this is straight from the danville historical society website....

Confederate Row leads to Danville's Confederate Soldiers Monument. This 16-ton obelisk and base of Virginia granite stands 32 feet atop a six-foot artificial mound. It was dedicated 3 September 1878 and paid for with $2,000 raised by the Ladies Memorial Association. Every spring, the Anne Eliza Johns Chapter of the United Daughters of the Confederacy conducts their Jefferson Davis celebration near the obelisk at Greenhill.

i knew certain kgc operatives at times used disguises but i never knew they wore dresses...they must have gotten the idea from the wildly embellished reports of jeff davis' capture in a frock coat...

as for drains, while living in a trailer might prevent you from knowing, those living in actual houses should know full well that drainages are around each one...these serve two purposes...one, they drain water away from the house to help prevent basement flooding...two, they help keep area around house dry so as to keep dirt from washing away and foundation collapsing...# 2 probably relates to the statue i would think....

the post in this thread that is about the only one that makes sense to me comes from old dog....
''On the other hand once found...
It becomes a moot point...
You sit here yelling for proof,
While the one looking for the treasure has it in his hands .
You are still yelling for proof ...
the one with the treasure is quietly disposing of it.
and all the while you are yelling for proof,
the man with the treasure KNOWS,
that the only person he ever had anything to prove anything to was himself.

So ... He just leaves you guys here

yelling for proof.

Thom
so right you are old dog.....

oh and you might read this before slandering anyone again....i think it was written for you.....
http://forum.treasurenet.com/index.php?action=accept_agreement

gldfndr

 

[gldhntr]

oh, back to the original thread....big empty holes do not prove any type treasure....

 

[jeff of pa]

oh, back to the original thread....big empty holes do not prove any type treasure....

They do not Disprove it Either

 

[gldhntr]

wasn't trying to imply it did or didn't jeff...rennwagon in one of his first posts said proof was a pic of a hole/place where treasure had been recovered...the threads title being ;; ''do you have proof of a kgc treasure''....i have pics of holes ranging from around 2 ft by 3 ,, 7 ft by 10 ft 10 ft deep, up to nearly 30 ft across...even have a pic of a very old grave recently dug , most likely because someone saw the A.G. on it, noticed the A was a masons compass/square symbol, and thought it stood for '' masons gold''...counting this one, that makes 9 holes altogether i have located near/around tree carvings....does it mean treasure was dug there ?...does it mean treasure was ever buried there ?.....possibly a perk hole from years past ?.....could it possibly be a decoy, to make others think the actual cache was gone ?, or is it just a hole left by some wild eyed treasure hunter with the gleam of gold and greed in his eyes ?,,,,maybe even something else,,...you make the call....i was just pointing out that a pic of a hole means nothing...sorry for interupting such an informative thread,,,,.. ..........g

 

[gldhntr]

in case you haven't noticed that for quite awhile, you have not seen me on here or anywhere else posting, nor boasting about anything...not worth the time to argue with your type...i have no useless books to hawk so there is only one other reason to bother posting at all and that relates to proving your wonderous research wrong at every chance i get, which seems like quite alot as i do not bother with this site much anymore but usually when i do i see something like your info about the monument, which is quite wrong, and take the time to correct it for you....we all know you know this, you know that, you own every treasure and its story on the eastern coast..you try selling them daily.....i have said there is no need kicking a dead dog and what you are obsessed with in your cemetery certainly is...i saw to it...no, i am not interested in digging it up..{kind of strange for a greedy backstabbing liar cheat as you try making me out to be, huh ? }...........yes hawkins safes are there..a few other things too....but certainly nothing to get all riled up about...using common sense, just how much specie could be in a few small 2 ft by 3 ft safes ?....not enough to lose your mind over.....seems like you have been playing sherlock holmes on your top secret map...have you found Emmeline yet ? on my last post a long while back i do remember posting that when you, or anyone else here could show me they knew that i would post ALL the info on ''your'' treasure here including exact burial plots..she is on the map......no one has contacted me with the info as of yet, including you.....in fact, according to the last couple mails below from you, you still do not even know where your own treasure is buried.....pity...


Todd,

Lyle Lacy has told me and he has told Frank that there will be no digging in the cemetery so long as he is in charge as Assistant City Manager. He may have even told you. Frank is now gone to a better place. I hope you don't do as Frank did-------wait too long to try and make a recovery. If you know where anything is------EXACTLY----Let's dig it up. I am tired of the argueing, tired of the competeing with one another and I am especially tired of Lyle Lacey's attitude. Enough said. If you want to go for IT, let me know. The forum is going no where and so are we--------if we let Lyle Lacy have his way.

I know you should never speak to me again, if you don't, you have a nice life.
Albert Atwell
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beale
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« Sent to: gldhntr on: Mar 25, 2008, 02:16:33 PM » Quote Reply To This Topic Save PM Remove

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Todd,

This is the last time I will send you a message if you do not reply.

I can get the treasure dug up. I have things in place. We are waiting to get gpr and em scans done. Since you already have them and it would save time and money--------can we work together? I can get the treasure dug up-----I only need an exact location. Do you want to do this or not? Do you want the City to hold the cards and say we can not dig. Well I can dig and I can do it any time I want. Let me hear from you. Albert
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enough said....if you want to argue further you should respect rennwagon and his thread, so it can be kept on subject, and start your own, title it'' wah wah wah'' and i might reply to it in a year or three when i get a chance..........gldfndr

 

[Rennwaggen]

SWR,

This is a City of Danville document dated 1880, it is not something you could forge or make. You do know city, county, state as well as usa documents are not fake don't you?

Can anyone else see the writing that is hidden on the 1880 Map of Greenhill Cemetery? You can see the lines either white or yellow on the blueprint. The blueprint I changed to red shows the lines of writing as blue. Surely you can see this?

Back for the day --- Please, post larger photographs. The ones posted when enlarged are very pixilated. They are not detailed enough to read anything except the largest letters in the circle.

Cannot see anything in the other (red or blue) pics for the same reason. Please scan with more Dots per inch.

The pics shown, the same detail but expanded to about 800 pixels wide should be sufficient for all but the most minute details.

 

[Rennwaggen]

Well, I hope that isn't what I have to look forward to.

Beale, gldhntr, I appreciate that you guys have had issues in the past. I sincerely hope you folks can work things out. Hate to see folks who were once friends fighting. Just don't let pride get in your way. If it's there, working together is always preferable to fighting.

gldhntr, when I mentioned "holes" what I meant were holes that came about as the result of pursuing clues to a KGC deposit. If someone beat you there, so what? What I'm looking for is any proof that will make me a little more comfortable pursuing the clues I am still gathering.

I've done reading, I've read the posts here on Tnet, I've PM'd with a couple of folks here. A lot of the stories I have heard sound just like something that someone made up. They don't sound real, they don't sound legitimate. Not all of the stories, just most.

Based on what I have read, and heard, I am on the fence as to whether these allegations of treasures placed by the KGC are real or fantasy. I am looking for something that says: "Here were my clues. After assembling the evidence, and following the trail, here is the hole I found where the cache was originally placed" or something along those lines.

No one has come forward to share anything like that. Can you?

 

[Hoss KGC]

Jump off that fence. The KGC never existed much less buried anything. Don't waste your time. Bunch of hawgwash. Just ask SWR, he knows the truth. He's done extensive research. It's obvious from his posts.

 

[gldhntr]

treasure is not like hand grenades or horseshoes.....only with hand grenades or horseshoes does ''close'' count....being ''close'' to a treasure but not being exact means absolutely nothing...people in boats and ships get ''close'' to treasures all the time yet they do not in any way get anything out of it.....unless they are a fisher......so goes our hobby, right ?... .....
rennwagon, i have tried posting pics on here several times but evidently being computer illiterate prevents me from actually getting them posted...i will be happy to send you pics via email if you would like of several big empty holes from several sites....i can also send a pic of a simple tree carving beside one of these that when deciphered relates '' dug up and moved''........gldhntr

 

[lamar]

Dear group;
Again, while the monetary figures posted by our esteemed colleague Mr. Beale is not in dispute by myself, common sense *should* dictate that if the figures posted by him were real, then the Southern States of America would have been the most powerful government on the planet, with a GDP far exceeding the combined nations of all of western Europe.

So, are the dollar figures grossly exaggerated? No, not exactly. The dollar figues, as quoted are factual accounts, however it MUST be understood the CSA had it's own monetary unit, the CSA dollar and as such, all figures were computated using CSA monetary rates of the day. In other words, the revenues collected by the CSA government were wildly inflated, to the tune of THOUSANDS of times more than if they were computated using US dollars.

As a curiosity, I'd like to point out that NOWHERE are the gold and speccie amounts annotated in Troy ounces or pounds, rather the amounts are ALWAYS quoted in dollar figures. What is convienently keeps getting left out by Mr. Beale and others in his camp is the fact that the dollar amounts as quoted are in CSA dollars and NOT in USA dollars. If in fact there existed an actual account of the WEIGHT of these speccies then we may soon find a rather large discrepency in the CSAs accounting practices.

To quote an oft overused cliche, I would like to close with this:
"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof."
Your friend;
LAMAR

 

[lamar]

Dear Beale;
I wholeheartedly agree that the cliche ""Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof" is severely overworked, however in this particular instance, it rings true as a bell. Thus far, the only facts which have been presented are those which are common knowledge and none of these facts lends credence to lost Civil War treasure.

The *facts* which purport wildly optimistic claims of fabulous stashed riches have thus far been little more than fanciful speculation, legends, yarns, tall tales, myths and a bewildering hodge-podge of figures. And so, the statement "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof " is quite literally the truth in this discussion as up to now there has been NO definitive proof of ANY KGC treasure trove and precious little unsubstantiated rumor as well.

This simply does not pass the common sense test. I can understand that when a persons' greed takes control, the minds' other facilities shut down, with common sense and logic being among the very first casualities, however, no matter how much a person WISHES for a treasure trove to be hidden away somewhere, all of the wishing in the world won't be able to produce a single gold coin.
Your friend;
LAMAR

As saddened as I am to state this, I must now say that I require a bit more proof than that which may be found in your two books, which looks suspiciously like either CDs or DVDs, judging from the packaging, however I try to "never judge a book by it's cover".

Again, if a sane person were to take the purported CSA monetary figures and compare them to same figures from Europe during the same time frame, one would immediately become suspicious. For the amounts you are stating, the CSA could have purchased entire European Armies to field against the North, yet this plainly did not occur.

You are also stating that South imported far more products than the North did. Perhaps the reason for this was because the Souths' industrial base was shattered beyond repair and as such, imports became the norm for continued survival and resistence.

So, my question is this:
If the South indeed had almost unimaginable weatlh, or at the very least, a very healthy and thriving balance sheet, why did they lose the Civil War? It would stand to reason that the South would have had the ways and means to continue resisting the North for many decades, if the amounts you've quoted are in fact real. Also, how can one explain the abject poverty throughout the South following the Civil War, which can still be evidenced in many parts of the rural South?

Therefore, I shall put a theory of mine to the test. If the knights of the Golden Circle did in fact exist, and if they did in fact have the monetary means which you and others so boldy claimed that they controlled, then why didn't they continue armed resistence against the Northern States after General Lee surrendered in 1865? That they had the ways and means available to continue fighting, yet failed to use those very same ways and means would mark each and every member of the KGC as a traitor, by my reckoning. Were these not honorable gentlemen? How then, could this have happened?

Once more, the facts in the matter stand clear. The South lost the Civil War. In losing the Civil War, the South lost it's industrial base, and not withstanding some steel foundaries in Alabama at the turn of the last century, the South relied chiefly on agriculture and some textile mills until the late 1940s, when it finally started experiencing slow re-growth, which continues right up until today.

Again, studying the historical facts, one can almost immediately conclude that the South had the cream of officers' crop to lead it's military, and as a point of fact, Lincoln wished for Gen. Robert E. Lee to lead the Union forces, however Gen. Lee could not go against his home state of Virginia therefore this left Lincoln to choose Gen. Grant as the Commander of the Union forces by default. The type of "honor above all else" is plainly evident in Gen Lees' decision, and this type of thought process runs through the time period, especially in the Southern States and the largest percentage of the US Armys' Officer Corps were gentlemen who were born and raised in the South, and when conflict was inevitable they returned to their respective home states to fight on behalf of it's citizens.

Yet, with everything going for the Southern States they still lost the Civil War in less than 5 years. They lost the war because they could no longer afford to equip it military, not because they were experiencing a shortage of fighting men. The fact remains that the South inflicted casualities at a 2 to 1 ratio against the North, yet they still lost the war. They won battles on the field yet they lost the war of attrition. This IS a fact and it cannot be disputed.

And now, along comes a tiny faction with the statement that the South not only had money at it's disposal, it had such a large surplus of money that agents of the KGC were able to go gallevanting around, burying hoardes of gold and silver everywhere their horses paused to drink water or eat fodder.