Do you have PROOF of a KGC treasure?

[Texas Jay]

As always, Tnwoods, you are wrong again. I was responding to RGINN's allegation that Pike's efforts to get Native Americans in Oklahoma Territory to join the Confederacy was NOT successful when the facts clearly show that his efforts were very successful and the best example of that was General Stand Watie and his Cherokee Mounted Rifles. My reply to RGINN did not address the Native American members of the KGC because that was not the point that needed correcting. Once again, it's back to ignore for you Tnwoods so you can have time to catch up with what has actually been said and what hasn't.

~Texas Jay

 

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[Tnwoods]

"Do you have PROOF of a KGC treasure?" No. I can take you to Oklahoma where there are carvings on a tree and a big hole in the ground, not too far from where 2late is, but no KGC connection. Farther west of there a treasure of some type really was dug up, but not KGC. It was probably related to the Kiowas attack on traders on the Canadian in the 1830's who had some silver specie, but maybe not. Albert Pike did come to what is now Oklahoma to the Ft. Cobb area in an attempt to recruit the Plains Indians for the southern cause, but it didn't go over real well because after all, it was a rich white man's war. So I guess technically there is a KGC connection to SW Oklahoma, but no proof of a treasure.

Ok Texas Jay, nice way to deflect and change what your post did or did not mean.

RGINN made one post that states, as noted above: Albert Pike did come to what is now Oklahoma to the Ft. Cobb area in an attempt to recruit the Plains Indians for the southern cause, but it didn't go over real well

Here is a list of the "Plains Indian tribes: Blackfoot, Arapaho, Assiniboine, Cheyenne, Comanche, Crow, Gros Ventre, Kiowa, Lakota, Lipan, Plains Apache (or Kiowa Apache), Plains Cree, Plains Ojibwe, Sarsi, Shoshone, Stoney, and Tonkawa.Arikara, Hidatsa, Iowa, Kaw (or Kansa), Kitsai, Mandan, Missouria, Omaha, Osage, Otoe, Pawnee, Ponca, Quapaw, Santee, Wichita, and Yankton.

Notice that the Cherokee are not mentioned, because they were not Plains Indians. A lot of the Plains Indians joined the Union.

So maybe his statement isn't incorrect after all?

I guess we can play this game forever. I'm still waiting patiently to learn why you think Henry Ford of Brownwood TX was Jesse James.

 

[okietreasurehunter]

It wasn't only the Cherokees who fought in the war. The Choctaws as well as others joined in. The Plains Tribes just took advantage of the war to expand their raiding parties into Texas and Kansas. Pike failed to bring the Comanches, Kiowas, etc. into the confederacy for many reasons but one was that the confederacy couldn't deliver on their promises of supplies. Get on ebay and buy the book Carbine and Lance if you want to learn the history of Ft Cobb/FT Sill and the Plains Tribes.

 

[Tnwoods]

As always, Tnwoods, you are wrong again. I was responding to RGINN's allegation that Pike's efforts to get Native Americans in Oklahoma Territory to join the Confederacy was NOT successful when the facts clearly show that his efforts were very successful and the best example of that was General Stand Watie and his Cherokee Mounted Rifles. My reply to RGINN did not address the Native American members of the KGC because that was not the point that needed correcting. Once again, it's back to ignore for you Tnwoods so you can have time to catch up with what has actually been said and what hasn't.

~Texas Jay

No my friend, I know your game.

You ignore facts that do not fit what you want to believe. You sir, can put me on ignore all you want. Your favorite saying when presented with facts is "you are just trying to muddy the water".

Facts sir, do not muddy the water, they clear it up. Only someone who has no facts tries to "muddy the water".

You are free to believe what you want, but please sir, do not expect anyone else to believe it with you, when the facts are not on your side.

And until you answer any of my questions, which you have not, and you should know what they are by now, as I have repeated them several times - do not tell me to go and study anything.

I know how you believe William C. Anderson was Bloody Bill. Despite the fact that Brownwood tax records show he never left Brownwood during the war, or that his lineage is well established and is not that of Bloody Bill, which is also well established.

Henry Ford of Brownwood TX was not Jessie James. He left tax records too - and he never left the county during the war. I do not know where you get your ideas from, but basing them in just a little bit of fact would be nice.

So spare me the I will ignore you crap.

Put up.

I am tiring of your silly game. I want the truth. Don't you?

 

[cccalco]

ust a quick google of Stand Watie and the Knights of the Golden Circle indicated the following. Now I am not saying that these are correct, only that they were found on the internet. Now can I prove that Stand Watie was a member of the KGC or anything else, can i even prove that he even lived or was a General or a Confederate or an indian. No not really, not unless you believe everything you read. So if anyone tell me that Stand Watie was a Cherokee I will just have to say prove it.

http://spirittalknews.com/standwatie.htm
"In 1861 the Civil War broke out and Stand Watie organized a small private army which called itself the “Knights of the Golden Circle.” He was soon commissioned as a colonel in the First Cherokee Mounted Rifles, a unit of the Confederate Army."


http://www.yvwiiusdinvnohii.net/Cherokee/CivilWar-AWarWithinAWar.htm
March, 1861
Elias C. Boudinot, Stand Watie’s nephew, elected Secretary of the Arkansas Secession Convention. Watie organized pro-Southern Secret Society called the “Knights of the Golden Circle” which later became “The Southern Rights Party.” Watie also raised guerilla company of Cherokees to assist the south.

"Stand Watie assumed the leadership of the Ridge-Watie-Boundinot faction and was involved in a long-running blood feud with the followers of John Ross. He also was a leader of the Knights of the Golden Circle, which bitterly opposed abolitionism."

http://www.civilwarhome.com/watiebio.htm
http://www.mycivilwar.com/leaders/watie_stand.htm
http://www.congray.com/dixie/standwatie1.htm
http://historyonair.com/?page_id=6&id=95

The article above has been removed from this forum by me and edited for spelling and context and has been reposted to the forum at:
http://forum.treasurenet.com/index.php/topic,284538.0.html
I am quoting as it was originally for archival purposes.

 

[cccalco]

"The leader of the Knights of the Golden Circle was Stand Watie, a Freemason, and members of the Knights of the Golden Circle included many of the elites of the Cherokee Nation, John Rollin Ridge; Elias Boudinot; William Penn Adair; James Bell -- all leaders of the Southern Rights party. [48]"
[48] McLoughlin, Cherokees and Christianity, p. 258
http://www.us-data.org/us/minges/keetoo1.html


"The leader of the Knights of the Golden Circle was Stand Watie, a Freemason probably affiliated with Federal Lodge #1 in Washington, D.C. Members of the Knights of the Golden Circle included many of the elites of the Cherokee Nation: John Rollin Ridge, Elias Boudinot, William Penn Adair, James Bell, Joseph Scales, and Josiah Washbourne -- all leaders of the Southern Rights party and former “Treaty Party” members. [113] The Constitution of the Knights of the Golden Circle, as recorded on August 28, 1860 states among its provisions:

We, a part of the people of the Cherokee Nation, in order to form a more perfect union and protect ourselves and property against the works of Abolitionists do establish this Constitution for the government of the Knights of the Golden Circle in this Nation...
No person shall become a member of the Knights of the Golden Circle in the Cherokee Nation who is not a pro-slavery man...

The Captain, or in case of his refusal, then the Lieutenant has the power to compell each and every member of their Encampment to turn out and assist in capturing and punishing any and all abolitionists in their minds who are interfering with slavery....

You do solemnly swear that you will keep all the secrets of this order and that you will, to the best of your abilities protect and defend the interests of the Knights of the Golden Circle in this Nation, so help you God. [114]"

[113] Franks, 114-115; McLoughlin, Cherokees and Christianity, 258. Of these, William Penn Adair was a member of Flint Lodge, John Rollin Ridge was most likely a Mason [Parins, 191], and Boudinot and Washbourne were Masons from Fayetteville, Arkansas.

[114] Knights of the Golden Circle. Constitution and By-Laws, Cherokee Collection: Northeastern State University, Tahlequah, OK, 1-2.
http://www.us-data.org/us/minges/keetood2.html


"On June 23, Stand Watie sent Knights of the Golden Circle William P. Adair and James Bell to meet with General Francis Herron to negotiate terms of surrender for the Confederate Cherokee."[14]
[14] Franks, 182.
www.tngenweb.org/tncolor/keetood5.htm

 

[Timberwolf]

Back to the original question of this thread...Do you have PROOF of a KGC treasure?

Even if someone did have PROOF, they would be nuts to post it here on an Internet Forum!
The same holds true of ANY treasure found that amounts to anything.

Have I seen with my own eyes, any large treasure recovered (KGC or otherwise), no.
Does that mean there isn't any? No, it just means I haven't seen it.

Are there large amounts of gold buried by the KGC? I don't know...maybe there is and maybe there isn't.
Two things are for certain...if there isn't any large KGC treasures buried, then those who have claimed to have found them are lying, and if they are buried....the KGC naysayers are doing us all a favor by downplaying their existence.

Timberwolf

 

[Old Dog]

we'll classify you right up there with the best.

all the historians who gain fame by coppying each others books.
refusing to accept any new evidence.

 

[cccalco]

Myths of the Cherokee By James Mooney. From Nineteenth Annual Report of the Bureau of American Ethnology 1897-98

"The breaking out of the civil war in 1861 found the Cherokee
divided in sentiment. Being slave owners, like the other Indians
removed from the southern states, and surrounded by southern influ-
ences, the agents in charge being themselves southern sympathizers,
a considerable party in each of the tribes was disposed to take active
part with the Confederacy. The old Ridge party, headed by Stand
Watie and supported by the secret secession organization known as
the Knights of the Golden Circle, declared for the Confederacy. The
National party, headed by John Ross and supported by the patriotic
organization known as the Kitoowah society — whose members were
afterward known as Pin Indians — declared for strict neutrality. At
last, however, the pressure became too strong to be resisted, and on
October T, L'861, a treaty was concluded at Tahlequah, with General
Albert Pike, commissioner for the Confederate states, by which the
Cherokee Nation cast its lot with the Confederacy, as the Creeks,
Choctaw, Chickasaw, Seminole, Osage, Comanche, and several smaller
tribes had already done."

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Knights_of_the_Golden_Circle/

 

[cccalco]

Famous Native American Freemasons
http://bellsouthpwp.net/g/o/goodoowah/freemasons/
Stand Watie Leader of Cherokee Nation and canonized as the last Confederate General to Surrender
Elias C. Boudinot Leader of the Southern Cherokee during the Civil War
John Ridge Leader of the Cherokee Nation and Advisor to the Muscogee
http://bellsouthpwp.net/g/o/goodoowah/freemasons/

"Of the five tribes, Pike had most trouble with the Cherokee. Their leader was John Ross, a full-blood opposed to slavery. However, another senior member of the Cherokee was Stand Watie, who was also leader of the Knights of the Golden Circle (KGC). Ross refused to sign a treaty with Pike. Pike threatened Ross,
"If he refuses, he will learn that his country is occupied; and I shall then negotiate with the leaders of the half-breeds who are now raising troops".
Around May 1861, a faction of Cherokee led by Stand Watie, also leader of the KGC, met with Pike to request the Confederacy to protect them from the Pins should they join the Confederacy and fight for slavery, protection which Pike agreed to give. Pike left the Cherokee and easily formed treaties with the other four tribes. Upon Pike's return to the Cherokee, Ross signed a treaty with Pike.

Stand Watie's brother was Lone Watie, also known as Elias C Boudinot. In the spring of 1860, Pike raised Elias to the 33rd Degree of the Ancient and Accepted Rite of Scottish Freemasonry. Elias was also the secretary to the 1861 secession convention of Arkansas, at which the Arkansas Ordinance of Secession was passed. Elias and Pike would later work together in Washington DC as lawyers."
http://www.theconspiracyexplained.com/People.html

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Knights_of_the_Golden_Circle/

 

[Texas Jay]

Tnwoods, wrong again. Show me one statement where I ever said that I believed that Henry Ford of Brownwood was Jesse (not Jessie) James.

"I'm still waiting patiently to learn why you think Henry Ford of Brownwood TX was Jesse James."

~Texas Jay

 

[Shortstack]

we'll classify you right up there with the best.

all the historians who gain fame by coppying each others books.
refusing to accept any new evidence.

Just like the Bangers who copy Darwin's crap and each other's muses; right down to incorrect sentence structure and misspelled words. Most of Darwin's "great theory" was plagiarized from his own grandfather.

What does THIS have to do with the topic? It justifies not taking the mainstream authors' works for anything but "rumor". If you want to know the real stories, read the writings of those who were there and did the "deeds". Their writing styles may not meet academic standards, but they aren't copying other peoples' info, either. AND, you won't hear them keep singing that same, tired, old song, "Show Me Proof, diddle, diddle".

 

[Shortstack]

Mr. beale:

Your posts reinforces my last post. Thank you.
Did you "flush" all of your previous postings?

 

[Timberwolf]

I understand 18 bars of gold weighing about 30 pounds each with the CSA Stamp on them was found,

Well, imagine that.
I'm sure them Knights of the Golden Circle didn't have anything to do with burying this treasure.
My good buddy SWR hasn't been shown the proof and documentation that he desires...so it just can't be true.

TW

 

[Timberwolf]

Good Morning Jim,

Yes, that was my feeble attempt at humor...not one of my strong suits of course.

Tom

 

[lamar]

Dear group;
On a personal note, I would like to see a bit of proof as well, in order to prop up my flagging faith in the KGC. Thus far, my view of the KGC is that they were a bunch of lazy, no-accounts who were sluffing off when they should have been hard at work burying treasure caches here and yon.
Your friend;
LAMAR

 

[Timberwolf]

Gentlemen,

Let's be honest. If any of us found 18 bars of gold (KGC or otherwise), how many of us would actually post our recovery on the Internet?
I'm guessing that number would be somewhere near...zero!

Good luck, getting someone to show you proof of their recovered treasures.
Those smart enough to do the research and make a recovery, are smart enough not to talk about it.

TW

 

[Timberwolf]

 

[Shortstack]

Hey, Timberwolf, do you know what is REALLY funny? These people sitting around demanding "proof" of caches, will remain poor and ignor-ant (concerning recoverable valuables) while the folks they're making fun of are going about their business, keeping their own council, and FINDING those "nonexistent" vaults and caches. THAT is the greatest justice of all.

 

[Hoss KGC]

:::cough cough::::

"Caches (buried treasure) of mammoth proportions are newsworthy. A good example would be the recently discovered Anglo-Saxton hoard in the UK. Other examples would include the recoveries of Mel Fisher and others in Florida, other large hoards in the UK, discoveries in Israel, Amsterdam, China and various other locations around the world."

Actually Jim, these are bad examples. I didn't say anything last time you gave these poor examples but I'm going to this time. If you find a treasure in the UK, you actually WANT to report it to the government. The treasure trove laws in the UK are very clear and fair. If the government wants your treasure, they will pay you what it is worth. If they don't want your treasure, you keep it. As for Mel Fisher, he fought the state of Florida for years with money and lawyers to keep his treasure. The state gave him a hard time on other issues after the successful suit. The US does not have clear treasure trove laws as other countries. Anybody who finds any treasure in the US, KGC or not, would be an idiot to tell anybody, especially the US government.
Boattow