Do you have PROOF of a KGC treasure?

  • Thread starter Thread starter Rennwaggen
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Clueman said:
I'm almost done (code for maybe months still) with a nearby recovery. I wasn't going to post till completion, but this guy is getting blasted.

Don't br harsh! This person IS a believer! He isn't inept. He KNOWS there have been recoveries. He just hasn't found any. His obsession with asking for proof is simply a request for someone to teach him. He wants someone to send him a pic of a hole with the "how to get there" instructions. Come out to Arkansas, and I'll show you a hole near a hoot owl tree, that was made AFTER a clue, and a carving were analyzed. Most successful treasure hunters have partners they share info with...I am NOT YOUR PARTNER, but if you want to see proof, come to www.sunsetridgeresort.com and reserve for a few days. I will show you a hole, I won't provide you with KGC Hunting 101....which is what you need. If you have half a brain, you can figure out why people dug where they dug. You have had the chance to see proof before, and didn't come see it...Come in person...and see.... then stop whining and learn for yourself.

Very, very close to the complete truth Clueman. But please, don't hawk anyone's books on the subject. Otherwise I will expect you to buy one of mine if I find what I have leads on ;D .

One example of proof of a found treasure:

Now, I have seen a kettle (about 2 feet across) which a friend located through dowsing. He plotted the location out on a map to within a few feet of the actual location. He had NO stories of a cache. He had NO documentation of the cache's origin. Heck, he had no experience with dowsing. There are no stories floating around of KGC activity in his area. Therefore, his story probably does not fit here except for the fact that he has evidence that the cache actually existed. When he arrived the kettle had been dug up and was empty -- but the soil inside was still moist and you could plainly see the impression that the coins had made in the soil. The impressions went from the bottom to the top on all of the interior wall of the pot. It appeared that there had been a lid (the area has been known to flood, and therefore mud could seep between the pot and lid), but whoever took the cache took it also. A day late and a dollar short I guess. He did bring me pictures of the location and the kettle.

Since there was no documentation, I doubt that it was KGC, but if we were still on speaking terms I would post his pics from the pot. It was real.

Dowsing? Don't believe in it as a mechanical thing in any way, shape, form or fashion. Otherwise, it would always work for everyone. It was a simple shot in the dark that somehow worked out for him.

Now, Clueman, since you have gotten so close you know what I am looking for. I want to know that I am not wasting my time following some guy's last practical joke. That can't be learned though until the entire process is complete on this particular search. However, if there were others who have done so -- not just stories but hard proof that these HUGE caches ever existed -- my mind could justify continuing to work on the project as then the possiblilty exists that the signs are legit, that the information has validity, that there is or was a treasure.

As for people blasting me, I'm a big boy and I asked for it by starting this thread. NO OFFENSE TAKEN, everyone has a right to believe what they want. Those who missed the point, don't worry you can't hurt my feelings. I was waiting for much worse than I got. I also know that my allegations probably offended some of you. When you believe so strongly in something, it is easy to become offended.

I do, however, really feel that way about folks coming out and hawking books without proof. Fiction writing is easy, documenting and actually making a huge recovery takes elbow grease and the use of one's back muscles too. Not too many "book writers" are willing to do that. And let's face it, most treasure books DO belong in the fiction section of the library.

Have fun folks, I'll be back to civilization in a few days to see what happens. In the mean time . . . Thanks for everyone's comments.
 

HI swr: you posted -->

Having to babysit you is becoming very annoying. Once again (and again and again) you have failed to read and comprehend my post in its entirety
~~~~~~~~~~
You and my wife sound all too familiar, are you related snifff.
**************************************************************************************

You also quoted -->

I am not asking to see the unfound treasure....but, the documentation that claims there is treasure in the first place
~~~~~~~~~~

Thanks to you, l now have an eye ache from going over finely printed War dept. documents on the KGC. You owe me a bottle of aspirin swr.

In effect, I honestly did not find any documented notations of their activity in the southern states and so wonder just why "THEY" would be picked for hiding any treasure for the defeated South when they had quite a few readily available, fully trust worthy men themselves.

I did find that they were well supplied with arms and ammunition, plus a bit of coercive money, but no mention of huge amounts similar to a million or more dollars in gold.

I found references to some sympathizers attempting to buy ships for blockade running, and the secretary authorizing the payment of $100 dollars for the information on their organization.

So I am back to square one, while it is possible, it is highly unlikely, that the south would be trusting the future (?) of the south to a group of guerrillas of questionable loyalty, or why they would be willing to send it over / through the gauntlet of federally controlled areas before, during, or after the fall of the south..

I found it interesting that what they believed in and intended to do, is strikingly similar to today's situation on federal powers, the constitution, and war. Some posts in the rant and political sites could be taken almost word for word. from their declarations, or vice versa.


Don Jose de La Mancha
 

My good friend Lamar: You posted -->

That the meanings of symbols were passed down through the generations by word of mouth is too indistinct of a statement for me to buy into and it is fraught with all sorts misinterpretations. For now, there would be at least four passing generations and this is more than enough time for meanings to become clouded.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

While reviewing the war department's documentation on the KGC I found a complete set of the secret signs that the KGC used during the civil war period, such as the extended finger while shaking hands or the position of the feet while doing so. For this, the gov't paid the huge sum, for those days, of $100 dollars.

Don Jose de La Mancha
 

I have to chuckle about this. It has been a long time sense my last post due to heart problems, but I have a clean bill of health now so I can start enjoying my Hobie again. As per the KGB, don't waste your time. Do you really think that someone is going to tell you they found something and have the Feds come take it away from them? This includes posting pictures of an empty hole. If there was such a thing, why would I or anyone want to show pictures which would compromise the location and piss the land owners off, as per KGC fiction, which would probably contain a few more smaller or even larger catches.
 

HI BOB: you posted -->

It has been a long time sense my last post due to heart problems,
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Female or treasure caused?

Don Jose de La mancha
 

Rennwaggen said:
Dowsing? Don't believe in it as a mechanical thing in any way, shape, form or fashion. Otherwise, it would always work for everyone. It was a simple shot in the dark that somehow worked out for him.

And this after seeing documented proof (the kind you're asking for here). People like you are never going to believe ANYTHING, no matter what anyone shows you.
 

Bob Turrentine said:
I have to chuckle about this . . . As per the KGB, don't waste your time. Do you really think that someone is going to tell you they found something and have the Feds come take it away from them? This includes posting pictures of an empty hole. If there was such a thing, why would I or anyone want to show pictures which would compromise the location and piss the land owners off, as per KGC fiction, which would probably contain a few more smaller or even larger catches.

Me too! How can anyone believe in the stories when there is absolutely no proof that any of these caches ever existed? Hmmmm, KGC . . . gotta be a good acronym in there somewhere other than Knights of the Golden Circle. I'll keep working on that.

As for the similarities to the KGB, they went out of business for a while, but apparently it was just a vacation, and now they are back. On the other hand, the KGC checked out. Kaputnik, gone!

To hide a treasure, you must first OWN the treasure. Poor folks are not generally known for their wealth, nor the great treasures they posses, other than the love of their families and their relationship with their creator. Other than that, living from hand to mouth, as the south did during the war, makes it kinda hard to store up treasures on (or in) the earth.

My family was relatively wealthy when the war between the states broke out. They owned a rather large plantation and did quite well monetarily. After the war, there wasn't enough money, and the land was eventually sold off just to keep going. Why would that matter? My family was related to Jefferson Davis' wife, one of my great grandfathers is buried on Jefferson Davis' Beauvoir estate, as are several of his brothers. They lived their last days at the Confederate Veterans home there, and were buried on the estate.

The south was BROKE! Why do you think that the confederate currency was worthless even while the war was ongoing? In reality, there was nothing to back it up. If you are broke, you don't have any wealth to hide, you can't back the money you're printing.

Between January 1861 and April 1865, something like 900% inflation? That would make gas over $36 a gallon and bread more than $27 a loaf in 4 years.

Nope, don't think they had anything to squirrel away.
 

Cache Crazy said:
Rennwaggen said:
Dowsing? Don't believe in it as a mechanical thing in any way, shape, form or fashion. Otherwise, it would always work for everyone. It was a simple shot in the dark that somehow worked out for him.

And this after seeing documented proof (the kind you're asking for here). People like you are never going to believe ANYTHING, no matter what anyone shows you.

I don't think it is a mechanical thing either. Witchcraft is more likely than mechanics to make them things work. But that's a discussion for another time ;D and another place.
 

Don Jose de La mancha
I wish it had been both. I had a bout with skin cancer also which has kept me out of the field as my doctor removed 4 in a row and it is hard to dig when you have stitches. This killed my soul as I have some good leads and have found even more. I had a nerve die in my heart, but the electrical impulse rerouted itself. It just took a long time and that one scared me as it was very hard to breath. But now I have a clean bill of health.

Sometimes I see people post digging for info. Some use any tactic possible to get info. So if I were working on a lead or following the B trail...why would I post it on this site or any other site? Its nice when someone is willing to share info and sometimes that info is good.
 

There is a similar thread in which you wrote:

beale said:
Some of my stories that have been published in Treasure Cache and Lost Treasure magazines tell of some of these depositories. They are real and they are out there to find. Some of the larger KGC caches were used by the southern state governors during the "reconstruction" period after the Civil War. Historians still are amazed how the south was able to "reconstruct" and get their states build up so quickly without "Yankee" handouts.

http://ngeorgia.com/history/recon.html The author of this site doesn't seem to agree with that statement. The Carpetbaggers, well yes, they wanted to say that the reconstruction had been done in record time, cause they was in charge of it. Yes, the Northerners were in charge. I believe for the above statement to be true, the southern governors would have been the ones completing the job. Oh, wait, most of them were "appointed" by the North. Heck, during part of the reconstruction Louisiana had a BLACK YANKEE for its governor! Like to see the KGC support HIS efforts to reconstruct with the gold they had been hiding!

Reconstruction in some parts of the south lasted for more than 10 years . . . Folks, think the people of Louisiana are taking a while to clean up after Katrina and get back to normal? I hasn't been 4 years there yet.

THEY WERE BROKE! Jefferson Davis' economy was a shambles --- so much printing of worthless paper money with NOTHING TO BACK IT UP completely destroyed the economy. They couldn't use their money to buy anything unless it was in the south, and then carrying enough could put a strain on the back because it was WORTHLESS. They sent what gold they did have abroad to purchase ships, and other necessities of war. A lot of it wasn't even paid for with gold, but rather certificates for cotton --- valuable to England and Europe --- but it isn't gold.

Sorry, I don't buy your allegations because history is against them. You dismiss documented proof of a failed economy of a broken government, and insist that they hid vast amounts of gold THEY DID NOT HAVE. It just doesn't add up.
 

It's my understanding that many gave their valuables for the cause. Could this be ONE reason why they (individuals) were broke? And if so, maybe it was not all spent on gun powder.

And just as a "what if", suppose those in power buried confederate money before it became worthless. After all, many thought the War would last only a little while.
After the money became worthless, why would they go back and retrieve it?
I'm just wondering if there are caches of confederate money out there to be found.
It would be worth a fortune.
 

Dear group;
The South lost the Civil War for one very classical reason. They could not feed the machine. This is the ONE singlemost important aspect of maintaining an army in the field. The machine needs to be fed.

By the body count standard, the South SHOULD have won the war as they killed many more Northerners than the North killed Southerners, however, victory was never in the stars for the doomed South.

One of principal tenets of war is the need to keep the war machine in motion. Once the machine loses momentum, it grinds to a halt and falls apart. This aspect of war was first discovered by the Greeks, most notably, the Spartans and they turned logistical support into an art form.

The Romans, who modelled so much of their societys' structure from the now ancient Greeks, fine tuned these strategies and they replaced the art of logistics with the science of logistics. They concentrated on rapid troop movement and maintaining the war machine resupplied with men, equipment and consumibles. This is why the Eagles of Rome at one time flew over the entire civilized world.

The South lost the Civil War simply because it was unable to keep men, rifles, ammunition, clothes and foodstuffs in the field. The South was where the nation recieved the greater part of it's argicultural products and it could not build enough machines necessary to sustain itself.

The North could produce more rifles and munitions than it's armies needed, and it was the Norths' foundaries and textile mills which won the war. The basic strategy of the South was to recieve it's desperately needed supplies from Europe in trade for the Souths' argicultural products, most notably cotton, tobacco and sugar.

This, of course, did not happen and it broke the first tenet of war. Do NOT rely on others for supplies and logistical support while in the field. Looking back through very fine eyeglasses of time, one can readily examine the cause and effects of the Civil War and the myriad of reasons why the South was doomed before the first shots were fired.

To think that there were a group of Southern gentlemen, who were raised during an era of very deep honor and pride, were hiding vast sums of critically needed funds, whilst in their very midst, their very kinfolk were dying in the fields in mind numbing numbers, from the effects of guns, artillery, exposure to the elements and starvation, is simply absurb.

That Jesse and Frank James were part of a vast conspiracy to change the course of the history of the USA is even more absurd. They were robbers, plain and simple. That they didn't steal from Southern banks has a very simple, and a very real, explanation. The South was completely broke! There was no money in the banking instutions of the South, therefore there were no bank robberies in the South.

That Jesse James was a man of education with a profound view of future events is a total farce. He was an uneducated dirt farmer from Missouri. That's the sum of it, gentlemen. SUPPOSEDLY he kept vast diaries, when the fact remains that he could do little more than sign his own name.

To believe that KGC was a vibrant thriving fraternity, while all around them, their very homeland lay in shambles and smoldering ashes, is astonishing.

So, the question remains, are there any leftover treasures from the Civil War. Personally, I believe that there are, however the treasures are of a completely different sort than most treasure seekers imagine. There are no caches of gold and silver, however there ARE treasures. It all depends on your perception, gentlemen.
Your friend;
LAMAR
 

good morning my buddy LAMAR: I agree on most of your well written post. Excellent work.

This is precisely why modern warefare includes destroying the civilian population's ability to contribute to the machine through an intensive action designed specifically to neutralize their ability to produce, manufacture, or support the machine. Hence the practice of bombing villiages, cities, or wherever they may be concentrated, as well as their system of transportation.

The days of chivalry are long gone, if you wish to win a war with as few casualties on your side as possible, the civilian population's contribution is a legitimate and necessary target..

Don Jose de La Mancha
 

lamar said:
The South was completely broke! There was no money in the banking instutions of the South, therefore there were no bank robberies in the South.

There were bank robberies in the south.
 

There were MANY bank robberies in the South,
as well as large Union payrolls that were taken
trains that were popped for huge sums

many miners coming back from the gold fields robbed,
as well as freight companies,hauling loads of semi reduced gold amalgam bars and fine ore to refineries.

The stretch of the imagination that says their resources were not as flush as they appear is very inaccurate.
Blanket statements concerning Fantasy treasures need to be clarified.
(since we are looking into facts and proof)

there was a lot going on that has yet to be explored and I'm not ready to say nay yet.
 

Dear Real de Tayopa;
Thank you for your encouraging words, my friend. I am merely attempting to illuminate the terrain in which we now find ourselves situated. To quote an old military anxium, "Novus bulla ars dum professio bulla suggero" (Amateurs study tactics while professionals study logistics).
Your friend;
LAMAR
 

Dear group;
With all due respect, I find various purported figures to be out of line with actual numbers. Very much out of line, as it were. The gross export of textiles(upland cotton) for the ENTIRE state of the North Carolina for the year 1860 was 45,514 bales with each bale weighing 477lbs. and an average market price of 12.4 cents per pound, for a total of $5,597,594.80USD. Therefore, it seem to be rather incredible that a single man, or even family, would have been able to amass a $50,000,000.00 fortune in a single lifetime, taking into account that the South would have to wait until 1870 to see it's cotton exports rise once more to their former 1860 levels. In other words, entire financial structures went bankrupt, or approached near insolvency during and immediately after the Civil War.

That there may have been 37 million US dollars aboard a train, during a time when the nations' entire public debt was under $65,000,000.00USD seems to be highly improbable, at best.

Now, if we may, let us factor in the alleged lost gold itself, shall we? With gold prices fixed at $20.00USD per ounce, and there being 12 troy ounces per troy pound, $50,000,000 USD in gold in 1860 would translate into, hold onto your seats everyone, TWO MILLION, FIVE HUNDRED THOUSAND OUNCES! That's 208,334 Troy POUNDS of gold! All I can say is, the hole they would have had to dig in order to bury all of this alleged gold in must have been a big one!

Again, that $37,000,000USD worth of gold on board a train translates into 1,850,000 troy ounces, which in turn translates into 154,166 troy pounds. It's highly doubtful that any single locomotive engine at that time would have been able to pull away from the station with that amount of weight onboard, to say nothing of having to ascend a grade.

And now, for the purpose of illustrating a point, let us assume for just a moment that there actually was 37,000,000$ in gold aboard a train. An average mule can carry 80 pounds Troy lbs. all day without overly tiring, so that means that it would have taken 1,927 mules just to be able to transport all of this imaginary wealth from one place to another! That'd be one long mule train, my friends!

And what of these so-called 'diaries' which seem to be such a popular fount of information? Have any of them been authenticated as genuine, and if so, who performed the authentication and what methods did they use to determine the validity of these diaries? It may be assumed that less than one person in hundred keeps an actual diary in our time and back in the 1800s that number would have been far lower, due to high rate of illiteracy, the high cost of pens, inks, paper, etc.

It seems odd to me that there are so many 'diaries' floating around which just happen to provide the reader with salicious bits of information, such as there being $37,000,000 tucked safely away aboard a train. That a young lady would have been privy to such information, let alone have been permitted to board a train that most assuredly would have been guarded to the teeth, seems highly likely.

And now, for an explanation of the minds' thought processes, everyone. Once an average person reads a figure such as $50,000,000.00USD, the mind automatically surges forward, and when coupled with a likely and difficult to disprove story, we now have sowed the seeds of a treasure tale. Once we factor in our acceptance of large numerical figures, from our higher standard of living, and from seeing such high amounts, such as a $10,000,000 lottery jackpot, most people today will not take into consideration what the sum of $1,000,000.00 represented back in the 1860s.

To make such claims, there would need to be a substantial documentation to back the claims up with, yet strangely enough, there seems to be no official state or bank records of the Banks of Tennessee losing, misplacing, overlooking or having $600,000 dollars purloined from them. The same may been stated of the banks of South Carolina. As an aside, Cheraw happens to be in South Carolina and not in North Carolina. Again, oddly enough, the towns' official records state that while Shermans' Union troops did in fact occupy the town, they left it amazingly intact, albeit there was an accidential explosion in the business district, however damage was minimal and the Union troops even assisted the towns' citizenry in extinguishing the flames. Again, there exists no known public records of any ransacking of the bank by Union troops or anyone else.

Once again, when we examine the historical plats of the actual township in the 1860s, we may soon discover that the population of Cheraw, South Carolina was less than 1,000 inhabitants. This would mean, that in order for the bank of Cheraw, South Carolina to have had $200,000 on deposits, that every man, woman and child in the township would have had to had an average of $200.00 deposited in the bank proper. This would seem to be highly improbable, taking into account the monthly average wage scale of the period, not to mention the fact that the South was still struggling from the effects of the Civil War.

To touch on the subject of cotton harvesting in India during the American Civil War for just a moment, it seems that once more, the facts of the matter have been reversed. During the time of the Civil War, India was a British colony, and as such, was a subject of the King of England. When American cotton production dried up because of the Civil War, India drastically increased it's own cotton production, however, practically none of the profits realized from this increased production were realized in India, due to heavy taxes levied against cotton imports by the Crown of England.

Mahatma Ghandi, who was an Indian patriot, summed it all up very neatly in a statement:

1)English people buy Indian cotton in the field, picked by Indian labor at seven cents a day, through an optional monopoly.

2)This cotton is shipped on British bottoms, a three-week journey across the Indian Ocean, down the Red Sea, across the Mediterranean, through Gibraltar, across the Bay of Biscay and the Atlantic Ocean to London. One hundred per cent profit on this freight is regarded as small.

3)The cotton is turned into cloth in Lancashire. You pay shilling wages instead of Indian pennies to your workers. The English worker not only has the advantage of better wages, but the steel companies of England get the profit of building the factories and machines. Wages; profits; all these are spent in England.

4)The finished product is sent back to India at European shipping rates, once again on British ships. The captains, officers, sailors of these ships, whose wages must be paid, are English. The only Indians who profit are a few lascars who do the dirty work on the boats for a few cents a day.

5)The cloth is finally sold back to the kings and landlords of India who got the money to buy this expensive cloth out of the poor peasants of India who worked at seven cents a day.

And therein lay the crux of the cotton dilemna in India during the Civil War. It would seem that ones who were profiting the most from the dwindling cotton exports caused by the Civil War were not the citizens of India, rather the British Crown and the British textile mills.

On another note pretaining to India, it has been surmised that perhaps 50% of all gold wrested from the bowels of the Earth currently resides in India, however it is not stashed away in caches in the ground, or even in bank vaults, rather it is worn as jewelry by the ladies. As a part of the Hindu religion, gold is considered to be a sacred metal, as is in evidence by the ornate jewelry and the lavish use of gold leaf on temples, statues and religious buildings.

And now I may close this discourse as all of my main points have been touched upon.
Your friend;
LAMAR
 

I would dare say that more gold was put into the ground after we were taken off of the gold standard, and it was illegal for an American citizen to own gold, than what was buried by the KGC.
 

I could believe that 2late. I found an area that had a pointer stone, hoot owl trees, 3 large square stones in a row (18 x 18) & another weird bent tree all in about a 30 foot radius. There was also an old grave in this radius. The reason I mention this is the hoot owl tree didn't appear to be that old. This area is full of hoot owl trees and the Spanish were known to have mined this area. The pointer stone & hoot owl tree pointed in the same direction and the weird bent tree and square stones pointed in another direction. I never found any KGC marking there.
 

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