David and the Peralta stone maps.

[cactusjumper]

David,

Is this the heart you are trying to show us?

Joe

 

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[Quinan Bear]

Cactusjumper;

Do you even look at what I post? or do you just comment on them just for fun?
I posted the heart before and all of the markers were all pointed out. Here is another pic....you find the markers, they are there.

 

[cactusjumper]

David,

To be honest, I don't give your pictures more than a cursory glance. Your imagination requires more effort to follow than I am willing to give. I seldom see more than a vague image of what you believe to be in your pictures, which are often so blurry that they make my eyes cross quickly.

However, I can see the outline of the heart you have added to your last post. Without your drawing, I doubt I would have called it a heart. Even after you outlined it, I believe you have taken a few "artistic" liberties.

Did you have any such problems with my "heart" picture? How much imagination was required for you to follow my map......right to the exact location of the heart? I realize my work is not as "high tech" as yours but, at least, I can say I've been there. I realize that doesn't hold much water for you, but some of us consider it, at least, of some help.

You are only one in a long line of folks that come along every year and tell the experienced old timers how stupid they are. All of them, eventually, fade into an amusing, dim, memory. Let's hope you will be the first to stick around long enough to turn your nebulous claims into reality.

I, for one, am open to that remote possibility. Maybe that makes me.......somewhat open.

Good luck,

Joe

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

good afternoon Joe my fellow 'Oro ole sock/eggshell coffee' drinker. I am beginning to that the rock data is some what similar to the HOLY BIBLE, in that you can find almost anything that you want both pro and con. By a slight tweaking and imagination you can see many things, even find them physically.

The one factor that still bothers me is why did someone go to so much trouble when they could have done the same with a far simpler map, if it was simply a con game?

About my post, he he, you posted --> How and where do you place the stone to get the desired shadow?
************
The basic area is shown, the actual spot would depend upon the physical configurations. It could well be that stones are not needed for this, but are only to show the area where the shadow crossings from local peaks etc. are the actual key, hence the holes merely show that the shadows are the important factor. You figure what date and what peaks. Although 7 played an important religious part in those (?) days.

In Tayopa, March the 7 th was the critical date.

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[cactusjumper]

Don Jose,

No one can say why......with any authority, although there may be someone still alive who knows the reasoning behind creating the Stone Maps. It's possible that they were created to provide some kind of authenticity for a treasure which was placed in the Superstitions.......to be found.

Harry La France's gold bars would be one such treasure that might need that kind of home. If the gold that the bars were made from came out of Mexico, as a direct or indirect results of Pancho Villa's depredations, it could be that a change in appearance was felt necessary to cloud the time and place of origin.

For some reason that plan was abandoned, perhaps there was even a double-cross. There are stories, from reliable sources, which add weight to that theory, at least for me. One such story from the right time period, is about a man who found a cache of gold bars marked with a crown just outside the Wilderness Area. He had two partners, and they agreed to come back the next day and retrieve all of the gold.

When the man came back in the morning, he found a huge hole in the ground, and never saw his partners again. Believing there were more gold bars at that location, he spent many years searching with a backhoe. His son told the story to a good friend, who related it to me. Since then, he posted the story on the LDM Forum.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Hi Joe am in basic agreement with you. But not on Pancho villa. It is too far north of the border and access to Arizona was heavily patrolled. Besides Pancho didn't have the gold for that. In fact the gov't bought him off with a pension and a contract. His widow also needed a pension from the gov't to survive.

Besides why would he hide anything in the US when there was a price on his head for the Columbus raid?

He supposedly had many treasures buried, yet when he desperately needed money to survive, he never dug up any of these supposed caches, but raided Columbus to rob the Bank for peanuts compared to what he supposedly had hidden?

However I did learn from a former Capt of his, now deceased, that he did hide enough arms, munitions, explosives and a couple of small 75 mm field guns in a remote cave just above the high water mark of a certain river to equip a battalion, still there . No mention of any Gold or Silver bars.

Under the present Mexican laws on firearms, I haven' t even bothered to seriously plan to open it, although I would have loved to fire the field and machine guns, being a gun nut. It is isolated enough to safely do so.

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[Quinan Bear]

Cactusjumper;
Why should I bother to explain something to you, if you are not even going to look at it with an open mind?

Hi there Tayopa, I would love to see pictures of you firing those guns.

There are many thoughts on how to read, why they were made, who made them, what they show? etc.etc...
Can anyone say for sure? Could it be that the information lies in the places that they point to? If those gold bars were part of the maps? What stamp if any, were on the bars? the cross that came from the other cache on the north of the superstitions, should give you an idea as well. The marks around the mines and places, tell a story as well.
One man might get lucky and find all the answers on his own, but i think that if we all pooled our knowledge together we could do it. And in less time and effort. It is time to show these places. Time for them to be seen by all. I am sure that time is catching up on some of you and that you would (admit it or not) like to see it as well, even if you didn't find it, Just to have been there and seen it all.

 

[cactusjumper]

Don Jose,

I am pretty well informed on the history of Pancho Villa. As for his coming across our border, you have got to be kidding. Even with all of the technology and presence we have on the border today, Hannibal's army, elephants and all could cross in many places.

Here is what I wrote:

"If the gold that the bars were made from came out of Mexico, as a direct or indirect results of Pancho Villa's depredations, it could be that a change in appearance was felt necessary to cloud the time and place of origin."

That leaves a lot of room for other scenarios. There was a man involved in the Superstitions who claimed he had ridden with Pancho Villa. The Stone Maps and Harry La France's cave of gold bars touches his associates in the mountains.

If nothing else, it's one hell of an interesting story........maybe even true.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

HI Joe: In those days it was basically by animal traffic. The Military were guarding the Border, Any heavily laden animal tracks would be followed up. It wasn't like today regarding the volume, also he would be traveling in the remote areas for obvious reasons.

Who knows, all that I can say is that if I ever open that cave come along and have fun shooting up much of that ammo, that isn't illegal under the circumstances.

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[cactusjumper]

Don Jose,

If my theory is correct, the gold in Harry La France's cave came into this country a number of decades after Pancho Villa's death. It would have been removed from Villa's hiding place by his own soldiers.......Possibly even the one I have mentioned.

Someone double-crossed in Mexico? Surely that couldn't ever happen.

It's just a story.......

Take care,

Joe

 

[Quinan Bear]

Is there anyone, that has photos of the two monument rocks that are in the center of the two humps next to Black top mesa, shown on this topo?
If so, could you please post them and put the direction your facing?

Thanks.....

 

[Oroblanco]

Quinan Bear wrote

Loke;

I never said that I found the LDM, I just said that I found 3 rocks in a triangle.

I realize that this was addressed to our mutual amigo Loke, but just to remind you David, you did say this, quote

OK guys/gals;
You want to see the "Lost Dutchman's Mine ? Here are the coordinates to the entrance to the high, narrow canyon where the vein is to be found. 33.45.56 N - 111.35.70 W.

http://forum.treasurenet.com/index.php/topic,85284.msg1435308.html#msg1435308

Don Jose - 75mm mountain howitzers? Intact and not torch-butchered? I am definitely interested in hearing more!

Please do continue amigos,
Oroblanco

 

[Quinan Bear]

Ok ok, I said it.....but it was only because someone sent me those co-ords and i just relayed them to you guys.
The lost duthman is a scetchy tale to follow. I think that if you find the mines in the stones, then you will find the LDM. Too many veriables. Like the three rocks in the shape of an triangle.
Were they themselves, like triangles? were they placed, so that if you made a line from one to the other, it would form i triangle. Or is it three triangle shape rocks?

At least with the stones, you have a better idea of where to go and look for the markers and mines.

 

[cactusjumper]

David,

Quote from: Quinan Bear on Nov 24, 2008, 04:23:33 AM
OK guys/gals;
You want to see the "Lost Dutchman's Mine ? Here are the coordinates to the entrance to the high, narrow canyon where the vein is to be found. 33.45.56 N - 111.35.70 W.
Since I can't get there it would be nice is someone would send me pics once they are there, or even a little piece of the vein with a hint of gold in it would be nice too.
__________________________________________________
I missed the part where you say someone sent you the information. I also thought it was the results of your own research. So are you now saying that someone else is feeding you this stuff?

One wonders who this person is, who convinced you that he (or she) knew the exact location of the LDM. Have to admit, I was sure you found it with Google Earth.

Joe Ribaudo

 

[Quinan Bear]

I got those co-ordinates from someone (in my opinion), that wanted me to go there and find nothing and then give up. I thought i would relay this info to you guys.
My knowlrdge of the LDM is limited, as it is for everyone, too many missing pieces to be able to figure out. Reminds me of the Beale Codes without the key.

My studies are on the stones and yes they remind me every now and then, that the LDM could be one of the mines on the stones.
I decided to look at things in a whole new way. I would study what the mountains were made of and how those rock types flowed through the land and to see where other mines were located. then i would try to follow the veins from those mines, to see if i could find a place where someone else had dug or mined. I also kept in mind that the mines were all hidden and made to look like nobody had been there.

When i asked about the triangle of stones, it was to see what exactly he said. I have found three seperate rock types, that punch out through another type rock and it looks like a triangle. Here is a pic to show you what i mean. Could it be this type of triangle he was trying to discribe?

 

[cactusjumper]

David,

I believe that information is not attributed to Waltz, but to an Indian woman.

Personally, I don't trust any Waltz quotes that did not come from Julia Thomas and Rhiney Petrasch. Even then, I would not take much of that to the bank.

Searching for clues that you don't really know the source of, could be a huge waste of your time. That seems like a basic first step to me....Know your source.

Good luck,

Joe

 

[Quinan Bear]

Know your source...

This is my delema. how do we even know that the directions that Waltz himself gave, were understood properly? This is another reason why i look for rock layers and formations.

Here is a photo that caught my eye instantly as i looked at it. I saw definite proof that gold was near this area. I also saw three things that were said to be identifiable markers for the LDM. Can you see what i see?

 

[Quinan Bear]

Not one of you can see it? I'll give you a hint.....look at the river.

 

[somehiker]

Was a "river" mentioned as one of the clues?
I'm kinda wonderin about that white thing on the left slope,though.
One clue mentioned a "spirit" that guarded the "mine" four hours a day.
What time was this photo taken? Now that could be really important cause it might be the wrong time.
Other than that,it looks like a great place to take a bath.
Even do a little panning,maybe,cause water's gettin scarce out there.

Regards:SH.

 

[somehiker]

I wonder what the reason was for the "removable heart"? This seems to be some sort of a key to something and if it was removed the solution would never be found but it was found with the stones
so this would defeat the whole purpose of creating a removable heart. Why create this removable "key" and then just leave it with the stones to be found unless what is underneath is also very very important. It sure would be hard to create that heart space without leaving any no ticable chisle marks. Its just odd that someone went to a lot of trouble to create that removable heart and then not keep it seperate from the stone that it fits into, what kind of a way is that to safe guard a treasure map?
Bill

Bill:
The answer to your question is likely that the heart portion of the map was not intended to be cached with the second part of the trail maps.My theory for the solution of the maps indicates that the heart stone was to have been hidden elsewhere along the trail and only found at the point indicated on the Priest map.The physical journey could then be completed to the correct position shown on the Heart itself.From that position,where a small piece of stone with a single hole lies jammed into the gap between two of the rocks of a flat grouping of different types of stone can be found,as well as the 80' triangular area above,a searcher who has studied the maps can look downward in the direction shown by the arrowhead (triangle)on the heart stone at the final destination and reason for the creation of the maps themselves.That same final destination is indicated by the meaning and appearance,as well as the position relative to the trail by which you have just travelled,by the omega symbol on the face of the stone.The reverse side of the heart was the second reason for a removeable piece that could be cached separately.It was used to indicate,in a symbolic fashion,what had been buried.Any additions to that burial could have been added to the blank half of the stone after the last shipment was interred.That last shipment never made it to the heart and the stones never made it to the locations that were intended either.
The stones were ultimately left,instead,where they were found in 1949.The last shipment wound up being scattered in places of hurried concealment at several locations by a party that had no maps to follow while they were in the mountains.Just a theory,but it seems to be working for me.

Looking up from the mound,at what would be the point where the trail on the map joins the trail on the heart.
A view of a triangular opening.The orientation of which matches the triangle inside the heart cavity.
Also happens to be what is viewed in the direction indicated on the Latin heart (noto triangulum)as well as the Perficio map (triangulum).

Regards:SH