Who decides whether we live or die ????

[0121stockpicker]

Many do, I know of several people getting everything from food stamps, heating assistance, electric assistance, free college, veterinarian care for their pets, pet food, rent assistance, healthcare, cell phones, house phones, renovations to their homes, cash, disability, drug addiction, mortgage help (like usda) free breakfast, lunch, and in some cases diner for kids at school, Earned income credit on taxes, free childcare (daycare not headstart), Headstart, free transportation, Homeless get free hotel stay with use of pool and gym (Tradewinds Rockland Maine) provided school supplies for kids, and on and on. Some of this does vary state to state...

All adding up what what?? 5 grand, 10, 15?? I certainly don't call that living high on the hog??

 

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[onfire]

All adding up what what?? 5 grand, 10, 15?? I certainly don't call that living high on the hog??

To the honest ones yes this isn't much. But get in the real world. Have 6 kids each get a supplement, Mom's name different then daughter husband different then both of them but are married 3 X's that and that's while they get a free ride at some university.

Sorry the system created by Johnson is a failed solution to the problem.

 

[dieselram94]

All adding up what what?? 5 grand, 10, 15?? I certainly don't call that living high on the hog??

No not high on the hog, however lots of people on these programs can work but choose not to. On top of that their kids often continue the milking of the system. Then we have the cases of people on these programs who work...Under the table so they qualify. Besides I bet all said and done the average recipient receives way more than 15 grand a year. Just the college alone probably goes higher than that, not to mention healthcare especially if they are sickly or hypochondriac...

 

[0121stockpicker]

No not high on the hog, however lots of people on these programs can work but choose not to. On top of that their kids often continue the milking of the system. Then we have the cases of people on these programs who work...Under the table so they qualify. Besides I bet all said and done the average recipient receives way more than 15 grand a year. Just the college alone probably goes higher than that, not to mention healthcare especially if they are sickly or hypochondriac...

There will always be people who abuse a system but so you penalize the law abiding and needy.

Seems to me I remember an argument being made that law abiding gun owners should not be penalized because of the action of some criminals? I will assume that you will afford the needy the same courtesy. Lets not penalize the needy because some criminals are abusing the system. If someone is illegally using our benefit services than they should be arrested and tried pure and simple.

 

[onfire]

There will always be people who abuse a system but so you penalize the law abiding and needy.

Seems to me I remember an argument being made that law abiding gun owners should not be penalized because of the action of some criminals? I will assume that you will afford the needy the same courtesy. Lets not penalize the needy because some criminals are abusing the system. If someone is illegally using our benefit services than they should be arrested and tried pure and simple.

Nice try. With the way this Administration treats illegal benefits You have to be kidding.

 

[dieselram94]

Picker, I agree my big point is we need to make sure these people have a clear and realistic way to bring themselves up and off the system. A hand up, not a hand out...

 

[Crispin]

I thought this thread was about who decides if we lie or die? Let's get back to the drama!

OUT of the night that covers me,
Black as the Pit from pole to pole,
I thank whatever gods may be
For my unconquerable soul.

In the fell clutch of circumstance 5
I have not winced nor cried aloud.
Under the bludgeonings of chance
My head is bloody, but unbowed.

Beyond this place of wrath and tears
Looms but the Horror of the shade, 10
And yet the menace of the years
Finds, and shall find, me unafraid.

It matters not how strait the gate,
How charged with punishments the scroll,
I am the master of my fate: 15
I am the captain of my soul.

Invictus - William Ernest Henley

 

[onfire]

Your right Crisp we'll let them decide.

 

[Crispin]

I loathe the IRS...they take, take, take, and give nothing back. In medicine, we call that a leech.

 

[Crispin]

Also, don't think for a second that I support Obama Care. All of healthcare insurance is about to get turned upside down. I don't have a better idea...I do applaud him for trying something; however, I think what is coming down the pipeline will be a disaster.

Crispin

 

[dieselram94]

Also, don't think for a second that I support Obama Care. All of healthcare insurance is about to get turned upside down. I don't have a better idea...I do applaud him for trying something; however, I think what is coming down the pipeline will be a disaster.

Crispin

Unfortunately his trying something had bad motives at work and it will be far worse than if it was left alone.

 

[Sir Gala Clad]

Who decides whether we live or die?
I cannot speak for others, but the answer for myself is I do.
Subject to how well I am able to protect my assets, hide my location, and relocate when and where necessary.

While most of the world is a better and safer place to live , thanks to the sacrifice(s) by our veterans and allies,
I cannot say the same for the country I live in.
The abuse of power by elected, appointed, and employees of government, including independent agencies,
services, at all levels (Federal, State, County) is rampant and accelerating.

It is key lower level employees that I fear the most as they are rewarded by the savings they make.
Sadly, many of these who should be helping our veterans, first time responders, and seniors are rewarded
by depriving those very same people of their benefits in time of need.
They routinely do this by non disclosure, obfiscation, deliberately lying and if that does not work direct confiscation.

Since, I strongly believe that our citizens deserve better from our government, I consider the right to bear arms under the 2nd amendment vital. Further, I have resumed treasure hunting, the path not taken
– rather than continue support of the status quo as the government has already taken far more from its citizens
than it should while large multinational corporations are allowed to avoid/not pay taxes.

 

[Sir Gala Clad]

NF: IIRC, it's guilty until proven innocent, under IRS guidelines.
Our leaders allowing multinational corporation(s) favored tax status while destroying small businesses by excessive taxation
is akin to taking from the needy and giving to the greedy.

Something is wrong, very wrong. If we have the hardest working people on earth , have superior training, and vast natural resources, as we are told
how is it that an overpopulated nation whose major earth moving technology was a peasant with a yoke and two pickle barrels has become and economic
powerhouse, which we depend on - as we cannot even afford to buy the pickle barrels without their economic help?

 

[0121stockpicker]

NF: IIRC, it's guilty until proven innocent, under IRS guidelines.
Our leaders allowing multinational corporation(s) favored tax status while destroying small businesses by excessive taxation
is akin to taking from the needy and giving to the greedy.

Something is wrong, very wrong. If we have the hardest working people on earth , have superior training, and vast natural resources, as we are told
how is it that an overpopulated nation whose major earth moving technology was a peasant with a yoke and two pickle barrels has become and economic
powerhouse, which we depend on - as we cannot even afford to buy the pickle barrels without their economic help?

Corporations are merely following the tax laws created by our politicians. So as you have done - blame the politicians not the companies that are following the law. And obviously you know which party is for low taxes for corporations and wealthy individuals.

As far as your second point I think your statement that American are the hardest working people is incorrect on many levels. Not saying Americans are lazy but I also do t think one can say hardest working. Best trained?? I'm also not sure about that. Countries like china, India etc turning out a lot more engineers, drs, etc, etc than us.

In the end you can blame American insatiable appetite for consumer goods for our position with china. We buy all their goods and they get our money and now our debt that we have run out of money. No one to blame but ourselves - pure and simple.

Best

 

[Sir Gala Clad]

Deepseeker and Bosnmate:
I understand your pain all too well.
Even though I carried full health insurance, the hospital was disallowed approximately $50,000 as I am legible for Medicare benefits (which I did not pay additional insurance for). Benefit – benefit to whom?
Further, I later found out that I will not have coverage until the next enrollment period for a bill from Medicare which I never received.
Further, I no longer receive social security as they have impounded these benefits to pay the Medicare bill, again which I never received.
To me this is a form Euthanasia and discrimination against the elderly, as a senior citizen you are pretty much toast if seriously ill. The hospitals, can only afford so much loss, before they go out of business.

If you think your home is your castle, think again, as it will be taken away to pay for uncovered health care cost(s).
The late Norman Garnush, The Golden Olde - Web Magazine for Metal Detecting and Treasure Hunting was well aware of this and chose to buy a large motor home to travel in comfort to different treasure hunting locations. I found his philosophies, such as elastic morality, under Coffee Break fascinating. It is as if he purposely made them difficult to read (yellow on grey) as you have to use select all to be able to read them or copy to your word processor then change text color for ease of reading.

 

[0121stockpicker]

Deepseeker and Bosnmate:
I understand your pain all to well.
Even though I carried full healthcare coverage, the hospital was disalllowed approximately $50,000 as I am elgible for medicare.
Further, I no longer have any health benefits as I will not be elgible till the next enrollment period for a bill from medicare which I never recieved.
In addition, I am no longer recieving social security as they have impounded theese benefits to pay the which I never recieved.
In my opinion, we now have a form Euthenasia and discrimination against the elderly, as you are pretty much toast if you are seriously ill.
The hospitals, can only afford so much loss, before they goe out of business.

What we now have in Euthenasia for the elderly

Clad, this will co to us to be a big issue as the baby boomers continue to age. What do you think the answer is? Should the gov/taxpayers pay and go bust to keep people alive as long as possible - even if the quality of life is gone. As I'm sure you are aware massive amounts are spent in the last minutes / hours of a persons life? Should every 95 year old be hooked up to all sorts of machines to artificially extend life for another hour or two? Tough questions and no easy answers. But this needs to be answered or Medicare for the baby boomers is going to bankrupt this country and every future generation.

 

[dieselram94]

I hope your not in favor of death panels...

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[0121stockpicker]

I hope your not in favor of death panels...

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I'm in favor of people not expecting tax payers to spend hundreds of thousands of dollars of their hard earned money to keep a terminally ill elderly person alive for a couple extra minutes all hooked up to tubes and machines.

I'm in favor of people taking responsibility for their own health and not expecting tax payers to pay for triple bypass surgeries because someone wants to eat a terrible diet and not exercise.

Is this wrong you think?

 

[Crispin]

Clad, this will co to us to be a big issue as the baby boomers continue to age. What do you think the answer is? Should the gov/taxpayers pay and go bust to keep people alive as long as possible - even if the quality of life is gone. As I'm sure you are aware massive amounts are spent in the last minutes / hours of a persons life? Should every 95 year old be hooked up to all sorts of machines to artificially extend life for another hour or two? Tough questions and no easy answers. But this needs to be answered or Medicare for the baby boomers is going to bankrupt this country and every future generation.

The answer is to allow doctors to design a health care system, or at least have an important role in it. It makes no sense to me why politicians, Obama included, lawyers, and insurance agencies all get to decide these things. Doctors are the experts on medicine because we do it every day. Pharma has its own set of greed that makes it difficult to trust even the most sincere of drug reps (I have banned them from my office.) The problem is that doctors are worked to exhaustion and all are emotional energy is consumed. We literally, don't have the time, or the ability to trek off to DC and constantly lobby. If you want Health Care fixed then put doctors on the board, reform nonsense tort laws that allow for frivolous malpractice claims, put better regulations on controlled substances. And yes DieselRam, not everybody can be in the ICU vent until they have had every last ounce of hi-tech care. These are not death panels. These people die and never regain a quality of life above drooling in a bed. Yet, it costs hundreds of thousands, at the end of life. Advanced directives are necessary. Everybody should decide for themselves what they want done at the end of their life before they are unable to. Here is an example:

I have a pt. that was past his 80's and had many, many health problems. He was admitted to the hospital for abdominal pain and coded while the doctor was in the room. The doctor spent 30min to resuscitate him and was successful. However, after 30 minutes of very little oxygen to the brain there would have been nothing left of the poor guy. He was transferred to the ICU, the family came to say goodbye, I went to say goodbye. Later that day he coded for the second time. This time, per his advanced directive, no resuscitation attempts were made.

These are the types of decisions doctors must be allowed to get more involved with and families must be more informed. Had the family wanted to they could have kept resuscitating over and over and over in the ICU for a week or two more. The result would have been the same but the hospital bill would have been over 500,000.

 

[0121stockpicker]

The answer is to allow doctors to design a health care system, or at least have an important role in it. It makes no sense to me why politicians, Obama included, lawyers, and insurance agencies all get to decide these things. Doctors are the experts on medicine because we do it every day. Pharma has its own set of greed that makes it difficult to trust even the most sincere of drug reps (I have banned them from my office.) The problem is that doctors are worked to exhaustion and all are emotional energy is consumed. We literally, don't have the time, or the ability to trek off to DC and constantly lobby. If you want Health Care fixed then put doctors on the board, reform nonsense tort laws that allow for frivolous malpractice claims, put better regulations on controlled substances. And yes DieselRam, not everybody can be in the ICU vent until they have had every last ounce of hi-tech care. These are not death panels. These people die and never regain a quality of life above drooling in a bed. Yet, it costs hundreds of thousands, at the end of life. Advanced directives are necessary. Everybody should decide for themselves what they want done at the end of their life before they are unable to. Here is an example:

I have a pt. that was past his 80's and had many, many health problems. He was admitted to the hospital for abdominal pain and coded while the doctor was in the room. The doctor spent 30min to resuscitate him and was successful. However, after 30 minutes of very little oxygen to the brain there would have been nothing left of the poor guy. He was transferred to the ICU, the family came to say goodbye, I went to say goodbye. Later that day he coded for the second time. This time, per his advanced directive, no resuscitation attempts were made.

These are the types of decisions doctors must be allowed to get more involved with and families must be more informed. Had the family wanted to they could have kept resuscitating over and over and over in the ICU for a week or two more. The result would have been the same but the hospital bill would have been over 500,000.

I agree to an extent crispin. I do believe that given a drs oath that they always ere on the side of keeping someone alive even if someone is completely terminal and life extension is completely artificial. Drs tend to be most comfortable recommending a hospital setting etc when often some form of hospice or a dignified end of life at home is the best solution.

If drs want to be more involved with end of life decisions I believe they will need additional non medical training. Personally I would involve social workers / councilors along with drs to decide on the most dignified end of life solution.

But lets never forget that in the end someone has to pay for all this stuff so it sounds heartless but cost must be a consideration.