Was Adolph Ruth really seeking the Lost Dutchman mine or another?

[deducer]

deducer,

Consider this. According to MCSO files and newspaper accounts, Erwin Ruth arrived in Mesa on July 3, 1931 and stayed with Cal Morse at the Morse house in Mesa.

On July 12 at 5:00 pm Erwin and Morse were to meet with Charles Knickerbocker at Morse house in Mesa. Knickerbocker was to tell Erwin where his father was going in the mountains and who he was going with.

But at approximately 1:00 am on the morning of July 12 Knickerbocker was mysteriously killed. He was found dead laying alongside the road near Claypool, Arizona. His truck was parked about 2 miles away in Claypool, the motor had been running and ran out of gas and his dog was asleep on the seat. The coroner's report showed blood all over Knickerbocker but no blood on the highway where he was found.

Erwin Ruth never got to have the meeting with Knickerbocker later that day. The timing of Knickerbockers death was too much of a coincidence. Whoever was responsible for the disappearance of Adolph Ruth most surely was also responsible for the death of Knickerbocker. That person did not want Knickerbocker telling anyone who Adolph Ruth had been with in the mountains.

Did you ever try to track down what happened to George Bashford?

I agree that he is the primary suspect- not only did he have the MOM required to make him a suspect in the murder(s), but he had also fought in the Spanish-American war, which makes him no stranger to killing.

 

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[Matthew Roberts]

deducer,

Yes, Bashford went to the Prescott, Mayer area after the Ruth incident. He was a prospector and miner all his life. He went to live in the Arizona Pioneer Home at Prescott and died there in 1962 at the age of 97. He is buried in the Pioneer Home Cemetery.

An interesting note is that when he died he was believed to be indigent but Pioneer Home officials discovered he had almost 6,000 dollars in a Prescott bank account.

 

[deducer]

deducer,

Yes, Bashford went to the Prescott, Mayer area after the Ruth incident. He was a prospector and miner all his life. He went to live in the Arizona Pioneer Home at Prescott and died there in 1962 at the age of 97. He is buried in the Pioneer Home Cemetery.

An interesting note is that when he died he was believed to be indigent but Pioneer Home officials discovered he had almost 6,000 dollars in a Prescott bank account.

In your opinion, did Ruth set off for Arizona on his own, or was he summoned?

I think the key to that answer is in how he came to get his hands on a new car. Where did the money for it come from?

 

[Matthew Roberts]

In your opinion, did Ruth set off for Arizona on his own, or was he summoned?

I think the key to that answer is in how he came to get his hands on a new car. Where did the money for it come from?

deducer,

He was definitely summoned to Arizona by Cal Morse. The MCSO file confirms this as did Ruths wife and son Earl.

The three notable gold finds in the Superstition Mountains in March and April of 1931 were the catalyst for Ruth to make the trip. Charles Knickerbocker, Ray Howland and Milton Rose all made significant discoveries that were covered in the Phoenix newspapers. Knickerbockers find was the one Cal Morse and Ruth were excited about.

There never was an explanation for Ruths new car. Certainly he could not have afforded it himself. There was a false story that a young man named McKnight made the trip to Arizona with Ruth. In fact Ruth came alone the trip taking him 11 days. McKnight was the maiden name of Tex Barkleys mother and she and several of her McKnight relatives were living in Mesa and Glendale Arizona at the time. Someone somehow got the false story that one of the McKnights came west with Ruth. The story grew legs and several dutchman authors repeated it in their books.

 

[azdave35]

deducer,

He was definitely summoned to Arizona by Cal Morse. The MCSO file confirms this as did Ruths wife and son Earl.

The three notable gold finds in the Superstition Mountains in March and April of 1931 were the catalyst for Ruth to make the trip. Charles Knickerbocker, Ray Howland and Milton Rose all made significant discoveries that were covered in the Phoenix newspapers. Knickerbockers find was the one Cal Morse and Ruth were excited about.

There never was an explanation for Ruths new car. Certainly he could not have afforded it himself. There was a false story that a young man named McKnight made the trip to Arizona with Ruth. In fact Ruth came alone the trip taking him 11 days. McKnight was the maiden name of Tex Barkleys mother and she and several of her McKnight relatives were living in Mesa and Glendale Arizona at the time. Someone somehow got the false story that one of the McKnights came west with Ruth. The story grew legs and several dutchman authors repeated it in their books.

where did milton rose find gold in the supers?

 

[Holyground]

That all depends on which mine you consider to be the Lost Dutchman. Over the years, every test hole and snake infested shaft has been called the Lost Dutchman.

 

[deducer]

deducer,

He was definitely summoned to Arizona by Cal Morse. The MCSO file confirms this as did Ruths wife and son Earl.

The three notable gold finds in the Superstition Mountains in March and April of 1931 were the catalyst for Ruth to make the trip. Charles Knickerbocker, Ray Howland and Milton Rose all made significant discoveries that were covered in the Phoenix newspapers. Knickerbockers find was the one Cal Morse and Ruth were excited about.

There never was an explanation for Ruths new car. Certainly he could not have afforded it himself. There was a false story that a young man named McKnight made the trip to Arizona with Ruth. In fact Ruth came alone the trip taking him 11 days. McKnight was the maiden name of Tex Barkleys mother and she and several of her McKnight relatives were living in Mesa and Glendale Arizona at the time. Someone somehow got the false story that one of the McKnights came west with Ruth. The story grew legs and several dutchman authors repeated it in their books.

It is interesting that Knickerbocker made a "significant discovery," yet Morse was compelled to summon Ruth. What for? What did Ruth have that neither Morse or Knickerbocker had?

What are your thoughts on that?

 

[wrmickel1]

It is interesting that Knickerbocker made a "significant discovery," yet Morse was compelled to summon Ruth. What for? What did Ruth have that neither Morse or Knickerbocker had?

What are your thoughts on that?

A map

 

[wrmickel1]

Ruth had a map that resembled more like the Peralta map or Franks map, No trail dots like Franks or the Peralta stones
just Symbols in common with Theirs. Makes me wonder who copying who. Ruth had them Symbols years before they showed up in Stone.

Babymick1

 

[Matthew Roberts]

deducer,

Morse and Adolph Ruth were not strangers. Ruth had been with Morse in Mesa in the 1920s. Knickerbocker had been partners with Morse in different ventures over the years. Knickerbockers discovery that triggered Morse seemed to be in the nature of a certain cave that fit with either a map or directions Ruth had. Find this cave and you can find the mine / caches but you needed the directions from the cave and Ruth had those directions. The well known 200 feet across from the cave were not the correct directions. Ruth must have kept these directions in his head, not putting them down on a map and that is what got him killed.

 

[azdave35]

deducer,

Morse and Adolph Ruth were not strangers. Ruth had been with Morse in Mesa in the 1920s. Knickerbocker had been partners with Morse in different ventures over the years. Knickerbockers discovery that triggered Morse seemed to be in the nature of a certain cave that fit with either a map or directions Ruth had. Find this cave and you can find the mine / caches but you needed the directions from the cave and Ruth had those directions. The well known 200 feet across from the cave were not the correct directions. Ruth must have kept these directions in his head, not putting them down on a map and that is what got him killed.

ruth had other maps that wern't found on his body...the killers took the good map and left the useless ones..they knew what they were looking for

 

[Idahodutch]

deducer,

Morse and Adolph Ruth were not strangers. Ruth had been with Morse in Mesa in the 1920s. Knickerbocker had been partners with Morse in different ventures over the years. Knickerbockers discovery that triggered Morse seemed to be in the nature of a certain cave that fit with either a map or directions Ruth had. Find this cave and you can find the mine / caches but you needed the directions from the cave and Ruth had those directions. The well known 200 feet across from the cave were not the correct directions. Ruth must have kept these directions in his head, not putting them down on a map and that is what got him killed.

Good afternoon Matthew,
I have been under the impression the the writing - “200’ from cave” was in Ruth’s handwriting.
The reason I bring it up, is that I too think there were more maps. Ruth took them all for a reason.
Working on multiple at same time.

The 200’ across from cave, may not be exact, but he wrote it down for a reason. It Is interesting which docu
ment he wrote the notes on though, including the V V V.
Whatever WAS taken was probably for Peters Mesa treasure hunting.
For an older guy in summertime, he sure was hoofing along pretty good to cover all that. It’s impressive if you ask me.

Idahodutch

 

[markmar]

The right clue is " No more than 200' from the cave ", which puts it before the maximum 200'.

 

[markmar]

The right clue is " No more than 200' from the cave ", which puts it before the maximum 200'.

Also, what you should take in consideration, the LDM from the " 200' " clue it's not depicted in any Mexican or older Spanish map, because when Waltz discovered it was only a residual placer of a gold vein, which he dug out and made it a shallow/narow mine.
In the Mexican and Spanish maps, is only depicted the inclined shaft LDM ( with the 18" vein in white quartz and the 3" vein in hematite mineral ) which is located about 75 yards above the LDM placer mine. The only place which someone could pinpoint the LDM placer mine, would be just above the " Tunel " word depicted in the Perfil mapa or otherwise Mapa del Desierto.

 

[deducer]

deducer,

Morse and Adolph Ruth were not strangers. Ruth had been with Morse in Mesa in the 1920s. Knickerbocker had been partners with Morse in different ventures over the years. Knickerbockers discovery that triggered Morse seemed to be in the nature of a certain cave that fit with either a map or directions Ruth had. Find this cave and you can find the mine / caches but you needed the directions from the cave and Ruth had those directions. The well known 200 feet across from the cave were not the correct directions. Ruth must have kept these directions in his head, not putting them down on a map and that is what got him killed.

That is what I have come to conclude, as well. Ruth held back on the last piece of puzzle and it must have been simple enough not to have to put on paper.

 

[deducer]

ruth had other maps that wern't found on his body...the killers took the good map and left the useless ones..they knew what they were looking for

Considering how old and frail he was, it would not have been necessary to kill him. All they would have had to do was hold him down and take it from him. And then what could he do? Run to the sheriff's office and yell that someone stole a map from him? He would get laughed out of the office.

 

[Idahodutch]

That is what I have come to conclude, as well. Ruth held back on the last piece of puzzle and it must have been simple enough not to have to put on paper.

The paper, later found folded up in his billfold, Seemed to be missed.
Or perhaps Since the Bicknell scratching info, was not new information for the Dutch Hunters of that era (that it wasn’t taken) edit.
Now one of the other maps is a different story, different information, and to the perps, possibly just what they needed to change their life. Gold Fever.

Also steeling a treasure map from someone is no small thing. Whoever shot Ruth didn’t want anyone to know that he was the one that now has the map. I’m sure the perp felt that he had to kill Ruth if he was going to take his map.
Gold Fever.

 

[Idahodutch]

deducer,

Morse and Adolph Ruth were not strangers. Ruth had been with Morse in Mesa in the 1920s. Knickerbocker had been partners with Morse in different ventures over the years. Knickerbockers discovery that triggered Morse seemed to be in the nature of a certain cave that fit with either a map or directions Ruth had. Find this cave and you can find the mine / caches but you needed the directions from the cave and Ruth had those directions. The well known 200 feet across from the cave were not the correct directions. Ruth must have kept these directions in his head, not putting them down on a map and that is what got him killed.

Matthew,
As far as I know the 200’ clue, originated with Ruth.
If he had other final directions in his head or something, he would have to have gotten those directions from the Holmes camp, which is not very likely.

Do you have reason to believe that Ruth somehow got those final directions?
Idahodutch

 

[wrmickel1]

Did you ever try to track down what happened to George Bashford?

I agree that he is the primary suspect- not only did he have the MOM required to make him a suspect in the murder(s), but he had also fought in the Spanish-American war, which makes him no stranger to killing.

Deducer

You do realize that there are millions of vets that went to war. Such as my Great Uncle Sherman. Civil War, Grandfather W-1 and my father WW-2. They all came home had large families and never killed again. Maybe Bashford was that kind of person. Sherman was asked to run for President turned it down to be with his family. Grant took the nomination. Grandfather farmed his 9 square miles of farmland he bought, Father moved to small town Jamestown ND worked for the state rented apartments he bought and gave his 12 kids better schooling. As for me raised buy 3 no strangers to killing work for billion dollar companies and refurbish old homes and sell them. Here’s my latest project



Babymick1

 

[PotBelly Jim]

Geroge Bashford never "fought" in any war. Unless it was during the Apache Wars. Here's a basic timeline of his service in the SpanAm war:

George Bashford’s Spanish American War Service:

Spanned a total of eight months, of which just less than a month we were at war. However, Bashford’s unit never left the Unites States.

15 July 1898 — Enlisted, 1[SUP]st[/SUP] Terr. Volunteer Infantry, Co. H

12 Aug 1898 — Armistice signed in Washington; End of hostilities

Oct 1898 — All companies of 1[SUP]st[/SUP] Terr. Vol. Inf. were shipped by rail from their respective territories and stationed at Camp Hamilton, KY for training.

Nov 1898 — Camp Hamilton abandoned, volunteer regiments dispersed for disposition/mustering out. 1st Terr. Vol. Inf. shipped to Camp Churchman, GA

Dec 1898 - Treaty of Paris signed Dec 10 1898, officially ending the war.

Feb 1899 — Senate ratifies peace treaty on 6 Feb 1899. 1[SUP]st[/SUP] Terr. Vol. Infantry finishes discharging all volunteers. Private George Bashford was mustered out on 11 Feb 1899.

27 Jun 1931 — Bashford applies for Spanish American War Pension from Mayer, AZ. Mailing address is General Delivery, Mayer, AZ.

Note the date he applies for his pension, and where he was. However, a proper conspiracy would integrate that into the story by claiming he submitted his pension application on that date so he would have an alibi...