Was Adolph Ruth really seeking the Lost Dutchman mine or another?

[deducer]

Pretty much how I see it as well. But I do think Ruth thought he was looking for the mine in Bick's article (a Peralta mine which was later mined by Waltz, which became generally known as the LDM). So I would say Waltz was probably a little more than a distant footnote, but a minor point. For one, Ruth carried the Julia/Bick directions with him on his fatal trip. They were important enough for him to update them with Veni, Vidi, Vici at some point, possibly in the field when he saw what he was looking for.

He was also reported to have written "about 200ft from the cave" (which I don't see on what I believe to be the original note found on Adoplh's body, the one in the Sims Ely collection that he got from the Ruth family...but then again the photostat may not contain the entire note). This wasalso a reference to Bick's article. Then, Erwin also makes reference to the Bick article in a note he writes. This note is on pg.134 of Dr. Glover's "Treasure Tales" and I've never really known what to think of it. It appears this reference by Erwin was made regarding the Borrego hunt, possibly in 1929, prior to Adolph making his trip to AZ in 1931. But it's definitely from Bick's article...just another one those things that make you wonder and not something I've followed up on. Here's what Erwin wrote for those that don't have the book:

"In its weird loneliness it seems an index finger marking the location of some hidden mystery. Owing to its resemblance, from one point of view, to a high-crowned pointed sombrero, the Mexicans call it El Sombrero. This hill or really a mountain of some 2000 feet is flanked on either side by lesser hills which from a certain viewpoint appears like the turned up brim of the well-known Mexican hat."

Almost word for word, taken from Bick's 1895 article. I've often wondered if the directions were "planted" on Ruth's body, but the handwriting on the photostat (which is a dead-ringer for Adolph's handwriting, unlike other handwritten copies of the note I've seen) and Erwin's quoting of the article, makes me believe the 1895 Bick article is a genuine piece of the Ruth's treasure hunting activities.

A minor point, perhaps. I just don't see conclusive proof to justify any belief that Ruth treated the Waltz angle as something substantial or that he was looking for the LDM in particular.

Without diving into the rabbit hole of figuring out what Ruth really was doing or what he really had as far as clues/directions/maps- my conclusion is that from looking at the entire picture that was his life, he just didn't appear to be a competent individual, whether being a father to his family, or being responsible at his job (having his pay be cut, and eventually being forced to retire). It therefore follows that he also was not a competent treasure hunter. This is supported by a variety of anecdotes, including his shooting his mouth off as soon as he got to the Quarter circle U ranch (at the time, the center of all Dutch-hunting activity), boasting but refusing to reveal his "maps."

With all this in mind, I believe that he just took whatever he deemed to be "clues" and conflated them into his vision of a lost Peralta mine bonanza, whether it be from Bicknell's article, Julia's directions, or the "old Spanish map" or a combination of all of them. I believe that this led some people to believe he was after the LDM because those particular clues were found on his body. But what's equally as important is what was not found on his body.

I believe he did have at least one map that was very unusual and something that no other dutch hunters had, and it was this map that caused his demise. I think Detective Jones actually was doing a great job zeroing in on it, but as Edwin Ruth had no way of identifying it (to set it apart from the many false maps floating around), the investigation fell apart.

The supreme irony in all this is that it was Ruth, himself (or rather, his demise), who single-handedly launched the LDM/Waltz legend into the national spotlight when all the Eastern papers picked up the story of his skull being found.

 

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[Oroblanco]

More excellent points posted, thank you all.

Deducer pointed out that Adolph was not exactly an expert prospector, and we know he got severely injured in a fall searching for one of his lost Spanish or Mexican mines in California, which resulted in the surgical emplacement of the silver plate in his leg. This amateurish-ness and naievete were almost certainly factors in his death.

Deducer also correctly pointed out that irony, it was the 'bumbling amateur' Adolph Ruth that really got the Lost Dutchman legend going in the public eye, despite earlier newspaper accounts. Also agreed 100% that Detective Jones was really getting to the truth and probably would have nailed both Keenan and Purnell. It is a point to wonder how it would have played out if only Ruth had been willing to wait for the owner of the Quarter Circle U, Barkley to return from his trip to Phoenix.

Doc4261 pointed out that Ruth's maps did not portray any Lost Dutchman mine nor for that matter any reference to Jacob Waltz or even a Dutchman. This doesn't prove that Ruth was definitely NOT hunting for the LDM, but it does help support the contention that he was really hunting for a lost Mexican mine which apparently had nothing to do with Jacob Waltz.

Potbelly Jim already divined the point I was working toward, that the mixed up tales and clues Ruth was working from are probably exactly that, a mix of different tales and clues from different lost mines that just happen to be in the same general area. Most of the early Dutch hunters were not prospectors and too many treasure writers freely lumped together tales of rich lost mines without considering they might not be related at all. I do disagree on one point though, in that I don't think it is a hopeless task to separate out the origins - just need to get it all sorted out. Difficult I will agree, extremely so, but not necessarily impossible either.

Please do continue, thanks again. More coffee? Sock coffee for the hard cases naturally.

 

[deducer]

If Walt Gassler were alive today, he would disagree with me. He was convinced that Ruth was neither a greenhorn, or new to the Superstitions at the time of his fatal 1931 trip, based on the fact that Ruth had been in the Superstitions as early as 1928, first with the Morse family who packed him into the mountains- he also headquartered at the Tortilla ranch for a few days, where he explored Indian Spring Canyon, and he also stayed at the old Milk Ranch.

What would clear up all this, if any, would be if an objective researcher could ever run down Ruth's possessions, which would actually include the "old Spanish map" (the original reportedly was never brought to the Superstitions). But there is a lot of confusion as to where his effects ended up. Some of them seemed to have ended up with Crazy Jake, and some reportedly with Eleanor Clark, a niece. The rumor that Ruth's possessions were willed to the Smithsonian ended up being completely false.

Ruth was said to be corresponding with at least one, perhaps two Peraltas. One being a Drigo Peralta, who wrote about his uncle being in the Superstitions and showing his cousin where supposedly the LDM was and had mentioned that the place was "shaken up or flooded some." This was corroborated later by John Mitchell's account of Senor Ballesteros, who in 1895(!) went back and visited the site, and said that the area was "so broken up he could hardly recognize it."


All interesting food for thought.

 

[Doc4261]

That's the hardest part. Figuring the right clues to the right mines. It's fun to decifer them. Part of the hunt that makes the Ldm so interesting. Peralta, indian, or jesuit mines. There are plenty, alot cross reference the same mines. Finding the Ldm is in there somewhere amidst them all. I like searching the jesuit part of the mystery of the Sups, but thats me.

 

[releventchair]

In the alleged note from Ruth in bottle found in salt river, who was Howard Peterson? I may have missed him being from Ruth's visiting base of operations , or nearby.
Maybe he knew more of what Ruth was looking for?

 

[wrmickel1]

More excellent points posted, thank you all.

Deducer pointed out that Adolph was not exactly an expert prospector, and we know he got severely injured in a fall searching for one of his lost Spanish or Mexican mines in California, which resulted in the surgical emplacement of the silver plate in his leg. This amateurish-ness and naievete were almost certainly factors in his death.

Deducer also correctly pointed out that irony, it was the 'bumbling amateur' Adolph Ruth that really got the Lost Dutchman legend going in the public eye, despite earlier newspaper accounts. Also agreed 100% that Detective Jones was really getting to the truth and probably would have nailed both Keenan and Purnell. It is a point to wonder how it would have played out if only Ruth had been willing to wait for the owner of the Quarter Circle U, Barkley to return from his trip to Phoenix.

Doc4261 pointed out that Ruth's maps did not portray any Lost Dutchman mine nor for that matter any reference to Jacob Waltz or even a Dutchman. This doesn't prove that Ruth was definitely NOT hunting for the LDM, but it does help support the contention that he was really hunting for a lost Mexican mine which apparently had nothing to do with Jacob Waltz.

Potbelly Jim already divined the point I was working toward, that the mixed up tales and clues Ruth was working from are probably exactly that, a mix of different tales and clues from different lost mines that just happen to be in the same general area. Most of the early Dutch hunters were not prospectors and too many treasure writers freely lumped together tales of rich lost mines without considering they might not be related at all. I do disagree on one point though, in that I don't think it is a hopeless task to separate out the origins - just need to get it all sorted out. Difficult I will agree, extremely so, but not necessarily impossible either.

Please do continue, thanks again. More coffee? Sock coffee for the hard cases naturally.

Well surely the Dutchman’s Mine was in his thoughts and in his mindset. I’m sure he read the stories in the papers about
Julia and her quest to find the mine. Most likely he new something about the Peralta/Gonzales stories too. But I already posted pic’s of his map with boots on the ground and yes it’s by Boulder Canyon Area almost where his body was found alittle south of there.

Babymick1

 

[wrmickel1]

Pic’s


El Sombrero and Simba Above the Mine. Casa foundation Mine Casa looking out to Carbadia

Babymick1

 

[Gregory E. Davis]

To wrmickel1 and all: There is a trail that leaves from Tortilla Flat and travels north westerly up to a gap which I and my hiking colleagues call "Metate Gap". This is your first picture showing the gap as one looks north toward the gap. The next two pictures on the right were taken from the western end of Geronimo Head Mountain looking west down into LaBarge Canyon. The last picture, lower left is a diggings on the top ridge of Geronimo Head Mountain almost half way along the top of the ridge. Cordially, Gregory E. Davis

 

[wrmickel1]

So do you believe that’s the map with boots on the ground. The old foundation or diggings as you call them sits higher then the tunnel and all sit in a straight line almost.

Babymick 1

 

[JohnWhite]

So do you believe that’s the map with boots on the ground. The old foundation or diggings as you call them sits higher then the tunnel and all sit in a straight line almost.

Babymick 1

It almost seems as IF you are fishing for answers mick...I personally believe that I have been to the area depicted in the image you posted...lol...And I will state that it is not in Arizona...

I will let ya'll know that the image of the Perfil mapa is as viewed from the entrance of the church looking toward the entrance to You can use your imaginations to fill in the blanks...

Oh...And the ante is up to 11 million to take someone to the area in question...hehehe...And February is just around the corner...hahaha

Ed T

 

[wrmickel1]

It almost seems as IF you are fishing for answers mick...I personally believe that I have been to the area depicted in the image you posted...lol...And I will state that it is not in Arizona...

I will let ya'll know that the image of the Perfil mapa is as viewed from the entrance of the church looking toward the entrance to You can use your imaginations to fill in the blanks...

Oh...And the ante is up to 11 million to take someone to the area in question...hehehe...And February is just around the corner...hahaha

Ed T

Well sure it’s in Arizona, I do believe Mr. Davis just confirmed that and it’s in the confines of the Wilderness Area.
But I only fish on occasion durning the spring run off.

Babymick1

 

[Gregory E. Davis]

Hello wrmickel1. I have no opinion. Just showing where the pictures were taken. Cordially, Gregory E. Davis

 

[Gregory E. Davis]

Hello JohnWhite. The pictures depicted in wmrickel1 post of September 23,2020 are on Geronimo Head Mountain in the Superstition Mountains, State of Arizona and NO where else. I have been there. Cordially, Gregory E. Davis

 

[JohnWhite]

Hello JohnWhite. The pictures depicted in wmrickel1 post of September 23,2020 are on Geronimo Head Mountain in the Superstition Mountains, State of Arizona and NO where else. I have been there. Cordially, Gregory E. Davis

I do believe that the pictures posted are locations in AZ...Though I do believe that the perfil dibujo is not a drawing of any location in AZ...As I have mentioned long ago...I have personally been to the location...And I do know what is to be found at the end of the journey...

Of course I could be wrong...

Ed T

 

[wrmickel1]

Hello wrmickel1. I have no opinion. Just showing where the pictures were taken. Cordially, Gregory E. Davis

Well my opinion is it’s not the Ruth Map at all that he was going by. I don’t know where they found his body but I will guess a mile or so southeast of there up on a ridge line. Since I have acquired of what I’m told is the right map to the best of memory. The map is associated with a certain distinct landmark.

Babymick1

 

[Oroblanco]

Matthew Roberts posted a map some time ago in this post:
http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/l...ruth-s-body-found-experiment.html#post5730244
which is supposed to be the site where Ruth's body was found. However this is also open to debate, due to a rumor about Tex Barkley or someone else having moved Ruth's body to help keep treasure hunters out of his pastures. Hard to say for an absolute certainty today.

Please do continue;

 

[deducer]

Matthew Roberts posted a map some time ago in this post:
http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/l...ruth-s-body-found-experiment.html#post5730244
which is supposed to be the site where Ruth's body was found. However this is also open to debate, due to a rumor about Tex Barkley or someone else having moved Ruth's body to help keep treasure hunters out of his pastures. Hard to say for an absolute certainty today.

Please do continue;

Walter Gassler was a big proponent of this theory. He claimed that Tex, himself, had said as such to him.

To me, it would explain how Ruth's skull became separated from his body. By the time Tex had discovered the body of Ruth and put it on a burro to transport it away from his prime grazing ground (Peter's Mesa), it would have decomposed enough for the skull to separate from the body during, or after what was certain to have been a rough ride over Bull pass.

It would also explain why Ruth's skull was said to have still had skin on it, which would be theoretically possible if the body was found in the lush laurel grove on Peter's Mesa rather than in the area around Bull Pass.

My thinking is that the skull became separated from the body during the ride and nobody noticed until it was too late.

 

[PotBelly Jim]

Walter Gassler was a big proponent of this theory. He claimed that Tex, himself, had said as such to him.

To me, it would explain how Ruth's skull became separated from his body. By the time Tex had discovered the body of Ruth and put it on a burro to transport it away from his prime grazing ground (Peter's Mesa), it would have decomposed enough for the skull to separate from the body during, or after what was certain to have been a rough ride over Bull pass.

It would also explain why Ruth's skull was said to have still had skin on it, which would be theoretically possible if the body was found in the lush laurel grove on Peter's Mesa rather than in the area around Bull Pass.

My thinking is that the skull became separated from the body during the ride and nobody noticed until it was too late.

Except...Ruth's jawbone and both upper and lower dentures were found on Black Top Mesa with his body. They're in the pictures with Tex after they gathered everything up about a month after his skull (minus jawbone) were found by the Spanish Racetrack. Not much chance of his head falling off enroute from Peter's Mesa, while his jawbone and dentures stayed with the rest of the body?

 

[deducer]

Except...Ruth's jawbone and both upper and lower dentures were found on Black Top Mesa with his body. They're in the pictures with Tex after they gathered everything up about a month after his skull (minus jawbone) were found by the Spanish Racetrack. Not much chance of his head falling off enroute from Peter's Mesa, while his jawbone and dentures stayed with the rest of the body?

Good point. That pokes a hole in my theory, then.

What do you think happened?

 

[somehiker]

Good point. That pokes a hole in my theory, then.

What do you think happened?

Not necessarily.
I hold and have shared the same thoughts previously in another thread somewhere else. It would all depend on what state the body was in at the time it was wrapped for transport, as well as how, if already disjointed by scavengers, how securely.... and where in the bundle the skull, mandible, and dentures had been packed.