Video 4 - The Peralta Stone Maps with Frank Augustine

[Matthew Roberts]

Moving back to Ryan's preview picture of the PSM on display vs. the PSM on the bumper photo, post #636........anyone still believe museum stones are the originals? I sure don't.
Doubtful we can reach 100% agreement, but assuming we can agree they aren't the same, which set gives you the better details and why? If you believe they are different, why were certain features added? What useful information do the modifications provide? Or; what details were left out that hide important features?

DING DING DING ! We have a winner !!!! I was beginning to wonder how long it would take. Go to the head of the class Old !

 

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[Azquester]

Wayne,

Speaking of the "Hell I was there" syndrome, just as I was done digging while driving out of the fake grave site at the new highway 60 queen creek bridge Travis site we saw a fast moving SUV go by Video taping as they drove towards the two holes in a cloud of dust as they went.

The grave like pile of stones I found are seven times the distance of the two holes separation from each other and exactly center like a cross going east past the power lines if you want to take a look. I'll share any site I find after I've investigated it first giving someone else a chance to find something I might have missed!

On my way to solving the maps?

I don't know about that, Maybe...

Until I get a close up of this thing to try and date code the Cross it may just be an anomaly or some poor suckers place of death.

I've seen others like this in the deserts and it's usually a special place someone wants to have their ashes dumped at when they die and a cross erected but never in a place so hard to find.

The Cactus's nearby are a possible clue if I could just find the one with the Free Mason's "Thumb" I've been looking for it!

I never give up scanning the cactus gardens for some weird cactus.

That stone and paper with the lines fanning out you posted?

I've seen and photographed one of those near a campsite with a horse at the end of one of the lines and other symbols at the other lines. It was a campsite map for the various animals and Indians and where they go for their camps by nearby symbol matching to the map.

I even showed the one I found to an Archeologist and he said it was a common petroglyph.

I disagreed and said it wasn't that common I'd never seen one before. Now you have one.

You'll have to get some photos/video of this cross and the base it's mounted on Bill, and post it for us to have a look see.
I haven't done anything more than a brief scouting of the other places folks say the stones were found, simply because I don't find those claims credible.
As Gary said, we shouldn't assume the Tumlinsons were lying, and both Travis and Robert said the stones were found at the QC bridge on US 60.
Those that chose to believe the stories of Mexican post hole diggers, cowboy jokesters et al , or made them up, have obviously been out to the other bridge and Black Point, to do a little digging themselves.....maybe even to add a little realism to their claims. All part of the "hell, I was there syndrome" I guess.
I would think that if someone wanted to mark the beginning of a "treasure trail" with something like a huge copper cross on a pedestal, then the rest of the trail must also be marked in the same way. This will certainly make it easy for you to follow the copper cross road right to the end of the story. Sounds like you are on your way.

The Whitlow Flood Control dam on Queen Creek was completed in 1960. Don't know if that will affect your theory though.

For me, the stone crosses have helped, at least the two same-size original crosses some of us have photos of. The copies are a bit larger ( Jim Hatts and the ones somebody else made and posed on a blue terry cloth) There are slight differences noticeable, aside from size, as is the case with the stone map copies.
The cross deeply chiseled into the back of the upper TS, matches the size and asymmetric profile of the "map cross",and IMHO that original cross was used to trace the outline before it was chiseled.....maybe even traced with the same pencil used for the heart on the PS.
Three other crosses are shown on the SM's, all at various angles. The small leaning cross out front of the horse, the cross between the two line on the priest's sleeve, and the larger cross held out in front. I believe all act as pointers, arranged as they should be used. Bilbrey mentioned....I think it was in the article from the Apache Sentinel, that the two crosses he found at his claim were different sizes, with one being larger and broken. Yet the photos in the article show two of the same size....chipped but not "broken". One of Bilbrey's friends, who had been out searching with Bilbrey and Ed Farr, had mentioned in a post on DUSA a third cross that Bilbrey had seen, but needed climbing gear to reach.( down, I would assume )
Could this have been the "larger and broken cross" Bilbrey spoke of in the news article ? Is that cross the one shown in the grasp of the priest ?

Regards:SH.

 

[Azquester]

I thought that was due to the roots and dirt on the stones when he found them?

You guys just exposed possible fraud on Travis's watch.

How would symbols appear after they were found?

Simply a work in progress that's all.

Makes one wonder if the Trail Maps are the fake ones or all of them are fake.

Maybe only one is real and the others an elaborate fabrication of treasure hunting fiction.

Incidentally Matthew the reverse picture may have something to do with my latest Bronze / Copper Cross find I'll let you know when I film it.

DING DING DING ! We have a winner !!!! I was beginning to wonder how long it would take. Go to the head of the class Old !

 

[cw0909]

Moving back to Ryan's preview picture of the PSM on display vs. the PSM on the bumper photo, post #636........anyone still believe museum stones are the originals? I sure don't.

Doubtful we can reach 100% agreement, but assuming we can agree they aren't the same, which set gives you the better details and why? If you believe they are different, why were certain features added? What useful information do the modifications provide? Or; what details were left out that hide important features?

ive always wondered about the car bumper img of the stones
ya know the 5Ws, i guess ill have to find a copy of....
Thomas Glover's Book "The Lost Dutchman Mine of Jacob Waltz"

im thinking that car bumper img, may be the last know img of the
real stones, wonder where those car bumper stones are now, hell
thinking about it the car bumper stones might not even be the real
stones, that Travis T. said he dug up

 

[Azquester]

Wayne,

Speaking of the "Hell I was there" syndrome, just as I was done digging the grave site on the new highway 60 queen creek bridge we saw a fast moving SUV come driving by Video taping as they drove towards the two holes flying by us in a cloud of dust as they went.

The grave like pile of stones I found are seven times the distance of the two holes separation from each other and exactly center like a cross going east past the power lines if you want to take a look. I'll share any site after I've investigated it first giving someone else a chance to find something I might have missed!

On my way?

I don't know about that, Maybe...

Until I get a close up of this thing to try and date code the Cross it may just be an anomaly or some poor suckers place of death.

I've seen others like this in the deserts and it's usually a special place someone wants to have their ashes dumped at when they die and a cross erected but never in a place so hard to find.

The Cactus's nearby are a possible clue if I could just find the one with the Free Mason's "Thumb"

You'll have to get some photos/video of this cross and the base it's mounted on Bill, and post it for us to have a look see.
I haven't done anything more than a brief scouting of the other places folks say the stones were found, simply because I don't find those claims credible.
As Gary said, we shouldn't assume the Tumlinsons were lying, and both Travis and Robert said the stones were found at the QC bridge on US 60.
Those that chose to believe the stories of Mexican post hole diggers, cowboy jokesters et al , or made them up, have obviously been out to the other bridge and Black Point, to do a little digging themselves.....maybe even to add a little realism to their claims. All part of the "hell, I was there syndrome" I guess.
I would think that if someone wanted to mark the beginning of a "treasure trail" with something like a huge copper cross on a pedestal, then the rest of the trail must also be marked in the same way. This will certainly make it easy for you to follow the copper cross road right to the end of the story. Sounds like you are on your way.

The Whitlow Flood Control dam on Queen Creek was completed in 1960. Don't know if that will affect your theory though.

For me, the stone crosses have helped, at least the two same-size original crosses some of us have photos of. The copies are a bit larger ( Jim Hatts and the ones somebody else made and posed on a blue terry cloth) There are slight differences noticeable, aside from size, as is the case with the stone map copies.
The cross deeply chiseled into the back of the upper TS, matches the size and asymmetric profile of the "map cross",and IMHO that original cross was used to trace the outline before it was chiseled.....maybe even traced with the same pencil used for the heart on the PS.
Three other crosses are shown on the SM's, all at various angles. The small leaning cross out front of the horse, the cross between the two line on the priest's sleeve, and the larger cross held out in front. I believe all act as pointers, arranged as they should be used. Bilbrey mentioned....I think it was in the article from the Apache Sentinel, that the two crosses he found at his claim were different sizes, with one being larger and broken. Yet the photos in the article show two of the same size....chipped but not "broken". One of Bilbrey's friends, who had been out searching with Bilbrey and Ed Farr, had mentioned in a post on DUSA a third cross that Bilbrey had seen, but needed climbing gear to reach.( down, I would assume )
Could this have been the "larger and broken cross" Bilbrey spoke of in the news article ? Is that cross the one shown in the grasp of the priest ?

Regards:SH.

 

[somehiker]

The "bumper photo", with the two "trail" stones set up on a block of wood, on the front bumper of a 1939 Oldsmobile, has been discussed at length many times within the Stone Map threads on this web site and others. The differences evident between what can be seen in this original photo and the so called "original stones" available for public viewing have also been noted and debated at length in those same threads.

 

[cw0909]

and the PSMs mystery continues,i was looking around the net for
a cheaper Dr.Thomas Glover book and ran across......

Superstition Treasures by Marlow 1965 Lost Dutchman Gold & Peralta Stones
Superstition Treasures by Marlow 1965 Lost Dutchman Gold Peralta Stones | eBay

and did a side by side, with the car bumper img, i think the Marlow img
is dif than the car bumper img

 

[cw0909]

i should have read the caption of the Marlow stone img, the car bumper
img dosent seem to jive with the preservation statement in the Marlow caption

 

[Azquester]

I think the bumper stones were just simply still very dirty. I can see a faint outline of the pointer arrow that is the handle stop for the knife on the bumper photo. It's faint but there.

You can tell they are the same stones buy the contours of the sides. Lighting may be an issue with the old camera reflecting light off the stones and washing the knife image out of the picture.

The "bumper photo", with the two "trail" stones set up on a block of wood, on the front bumper of a 1939 Oldsmobile, has been discussed at length many times within the Stone Map threads on this web site and others. The differences evident between what can be seen in this original photo and the so called "original stones" available for public viewing have also been noted and debated at length in those same threads.

View attachment 1176132View attachment 1176126

 

[somehiker]

i should have read the caption of the Marlow stone img, the car bumper
img dosent seem to jive with the preservation statement in the Marlow caption

View attachment 1176145

Correct. That is how Travis himself described the way he found the two trail stones had been buried.
Face to face, with the red heart a bit further down. As such, it's not hard to understand how the finer roots of desert brush could have penetrated between the two stones....considering they weren't buried more than a couple of feet down. But given the slow growth rate of desert flora, even in ground which had been disturbed by digging the hole for the cache in the first place, it would have taken some time for this to occur IMO.

 

[deducer]

Correct. That is how Travis himself described the way he found the two trail stones had been buried.
Face to face, with the red heart a bit further down. As such, it's not hard to understand how the finer roots of desert brush could have penetrated between the two stones....considering they weren't buried more than a couple of feet down. But given the slow growth rate of desert flora, even in ground which had been disturbed by digging the hole for the cache in the first place, it would have taken some time for this to occur IMO.

Wonder why the heart wasn't in the cavity when the stones were buried, face to face. That seems logical.

 

[somehiker]

I think the bumper stones were just simply still very dirty. I can see a faint outline of the pointer arrow that is the handle stop for the knife on the bumper photo. It's faint but there.

You can tell they are the same stones buy the contours of the sides. Lighting may be an issue with the old camera reflecting light off the stones and washing the knife image out of the picture.

Bill:

As I commented previously, and I had to cut away for a meeting with someone, so was only able to post my opening statement and the photos, many of these differences have been discussed in the past. Google search "stone maps on bumper" for links to some of these threads. Mike M. and I have both posted photos of originals vs copies which highlight the differences. Other things readily apparent is the notch at the upper left corner, the difference in the uppermost edge, straight vs slightly curved on the originals, even the color gradient of the heart is significantly different. The extra hole might be a result of the folding which cracked the surface emulsion layer of the BP, but for me the most obvious red flag is the size of the circle-in-circle within the "2=3-(0)....."formula".

Regards:Wayne

 

[somehiker]

Wonder why the heart wasn't in the cavity when the stones were buried, face to face. That seems logical.

Knowing that over time, calcification might fill the tighter space between the heart and the cavity, they may have elected to separate the heart from the upper TS.
Once "welded" in place by caliche, it would have been almost impossible to "pluck the heart from it's mystery" ( or something like that ). Even if you could get it out, severe damage to both pieces might be the result.....or all three if, as I now believe, that heart was broken deliberately sometime prior to it's being cached.
My reason for this belief is related to something I haven't mentioned about the CP rock.
While the same problem may have existed for the two trail stones, being buried face to face,I don't think it would have affected them to the same degree.

The other possibility of course, is that it was done that way for security. Without deducing...that there must be something which fits in that hole, the wrong person or people recovering the stones minus the red heart, would not stand a chance in reaching the end of the "journey" and accomplishing the final part ..."ESTA BEREDA".
I am increasingly suspicious that Travis had some kind of directions to that place where he found the stones. That these directions or a map were amongst the papers collected by his grandfather "Pegleg" and described a cache or multiple cashes ( more likely IMO ) where the tip of a high peak could be seen from a high bank on the south side of a rio or large creek directly to the south of the peak. I also believe that the construction of US 60 and the cut through the bank for the highway and bridge may have delayed his discovery...but lady luck was on his side when he spotted the HP stone sticking out of the side of that road cut....near the top and probably buried about the same depth as the others.

Of course, this is just the way I see things. Others may view all of this differently....in fact I encourage everyone to develop their own theories, put them to the test, and share their discoveries ( or what they can) as I have done.

Regards:SH.

 

[Old]

I think the bumper stones were just simply still very dirty. I can see a faint outline of the pointer arrow that is the handle stop for the knife on the bumper photo. It's faint but there.

You can tell they are the same stones buy the contours of the sides. Lighting may be an issue with the old camera reflecting light off the stones and washing the knife image out of the picture.

Bill I too had hoped that was the case. But; that's not what my eyes are seeing. Photo's with differences below. I could have done this all over the maps but just did these to start the discussion. And as Wayne says....this has been done before. They are different, quite different. You will have to blow up the photo to get a fuller view.

 

[somehiker]

Something else Lynda....the size of the gap between the heart stone and the periphery of the "pocket".
Both photos have the stones upright with the heart in the pocket. Yet the museum stone has a much wider gap between the two surfaces.
This could be good evidence for the use of a dremel duplicator in the making of the copy. If a larger diameter cutter is used, than the diameter of the stylus (line and profile follower) the copy will have a larger diameter hole (pocket).

 

[Old]

I'm with ya Wayne. I too would lean toward Peg Leg being the source behind the source. Where Peg Leg got them, I can only guess. That's why I was/am so interested in the Grijalva story. Is it possible they tie together? The answer to that one just might be lost to the ages.

 

[deducer]

This could be good evidence for the use of a dremel duplicator in the making of the copy. If a larger diameter cutter is used, than the diameter of the stylus (line and profile follower) the copy will have a larger diameter hole (pocket).

Excellent, solid reasoning here; I never thought of a dremel duplicator. That would sure speed up the work, and would answer the question of how one would make a very close duplicate of the "DON" on the back of the lower TS (which has always been a stumbling block for me).

 

[RG1976]

The video is finally done - thanks for sticking around everyone.

Its been uploaded to youtube and waiting final processing on their end - as soon as youtube has done their thing - a new thread will be posted.

Make sure to watch it - I think you will be quite surprised at what I found out towards the end of all my research.

 

[cw0909]

oh,oh, dont tell me, you found the stones on the car bumper

i know its going to be good, not sure how long you tube takes, i have to start early
in the morn, might have to catch it tomorrow afternoon

The video is finally done - thanks for sticking around everyone.

Its been uploaded to youtube and waiting final processing on their end - as soon as youtube has done their thing - a new thread will be posted.

Make sure to watch it - I think you will be quite surprised at what I found out towards the end of all my research.

 

[RG1976]

oh,oh, dont tell me, you found the stones on the car bumper

i know its going to be good, not sure how long you tube takes, i have to start early
in the morn, might have to catch it tomorrow afternoon

The processing time on youtube ranges from 15mins sometimes to over 4 hours (on video 3). Its just the luck of the draw!

And no - we didnt find the stones on the bumper - we found better. =)