Video 4 - The Peralta Stone Maps with Frank Augustine

[cw0909]

cool maybe i can check it quick b4 i start the day

The processing time on youtube ranges from 15mins sometimes to over 4 hours (on video 3). Its just the luck of the draw!

And no - we didnt find the stones on the bumper - we found better. =)

 

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[captain1965]

Can't wait. I'm staying up for this one.

Thanks
Jon

 

[RG1976]

Can't wait. I'm staying up for this one.

Thanks
Jon

It may be a while, Jon. In the past 90 mins, the progress bar on YouTube's end has gone up 1%

 

[somehiker]

I'm with ya Wayne. I too would lean toward Peg Leg being the source behind the source. Where Peg Leg got them, I can only guess. That's why I was/am so interested in the Grijalva story. Is it possible they tie together? The answer to that one just might be lost to the ages.

The theory that it was John Jackson Tumlinson who had the stones and passed them down to Travis originated with Azmuila, so far as I know.
He has written several articles for the SMHS Journal/magazine, in which he describes his research into the history of the stone maps and presents his theories about who carved them, when and where they were carved from stone sourced in Sonora, and how they were originally discovered when the stone flooring of a church was removed for renovations in the early 1900's. His scenario proposed that the Trail Stones (and heart I presume) were on their way by train to church headquarters in Mexico City, when the courier accompanying them fell ill and died.....that the stones were then stolen and sold to Pegleg.
I have taken part in many conversations re: Azmula's evidence and conclusions, including an appeal for some kind of outside reference to his "stolen from courier" claim, but he chooses to ignore much of the conflicting evidence I have so far presented. Unfortunately, he seems to have exited the stage...not the first time, as he previously deleted almost all of his earlier posts on other web sites...and apparently has no interest in new findings or further discussion. He, like a few others who have an abiding interest in the stones, have adopted the "Tumlinson lied" theory (that he crafted at least one of the stones...HP stone....and then lied about finding them as well), and as a result have expended a great amount of effort in sourcing and compiling anything which supports this conclusion, rather than accepting at face value and using the legend and artifacts to enhance their explorations of the mountains.
It's all a tangled web, but I have never come across any reference in the published literature about Pegleg having maps carved on stone.....nothing.
But there are references, Dobie for instance, which state that Pegleg did have a collection of old Spanish documents relating to treasures.

Regards:SH.

 

[cactusjumper]

The theory that it was John Jackson Tumlinson who had the stones and passed them down to Travis originated with Azmuila, so far as I know.
He has written several articles for the SMHS Journal/magazine, in which he describes his research into the history of the stone maps and presents his theories about who carved them, when and where they were carved from stone sourced in Sonora, and how they were originally discovered when the stone flooring of a church was removed for renovations in the early 1900's. His scenario proposed that the Trail Stones (and heart I presume) were on their way by train to church headquarters in Mexico City, when the courier accompanying them fell ill and died.....that the stones were then stolen and sold to Pegleg.
I have taken part in many conversations re: Azmula's evidence and conclusions, including an appeal for some kind of outside reference to his "stolen from courier" claim, but he chooses to ignore much of the conflicting evidence I have so far presented. Unfortunately, he seems to have exited the stage...not the first time, as he previously deleted almost all of his earlier posts on other web sites...and apparently has no interest in new findings or further discussion. He, like a few others who have an abiding interest in the stones, have adopted the "Tumlinson lied" theory (that he crafted at least one of the stones...HP stone....and then lied about finding them as well), and as a result have expended a great amount of effort in sourcing and compiling anything which supports this conclusion, rather than accepting at face value and using the legend and artifacts to enhance their explorations of the mountains.
It's all a tangled web, but I have never come across any reference in the published literature about Pegleg having maps carved on stone.....nothing.
But there are references, Dobie for instance, which state that Pegleg did have a collection of old Spanish documents relating to treasures.

Regards:SH.

Wayne,

Hope all is well with you.

There are many folks who wrote about the Stone Maps who have also "exited the stage". Azmula seems to be one of them, although I suspect he is posting under another name. He did write an interesting story, which I still have, and his extensive knowledge of his subject did lend credence to his tale.

Unfortunately, when he included historical "facts" in his story, it raised a few red flags. When questioned or asked for historical sources he and his friends lost their cool. Many of them went back, eventually, and deleted all of their posts. This habit has been repeated many times over recent years. Some folks began recording their posts or quoting them to make sure they did not go away.

When those old quotes are posted, they claim they never wrote them, that those who claim they did are all lying.

You can live a lie for a long time. Eventually it will catch up to you and the only defense is more lies.

Perhaps these forums are just a place for people to spin their tall tales and create new histories.

Take care,

Joe

 

[somehiker]

Wayne,

Hope all is well with you.

There are many folks who wrote about the Stone Maps who have also "exited the stage". Azmula seems to be one of them, although I suspect he is posting under another name. He did write an interesting story, which I still have, and his extensive knowledge of his subject did lend credence to his tale.

Unfortunately, when he included historical "facts" in his story, it raised a few red flags. When questioned or asked for historical sources he and his friends lost their cool. Many of them went back, eventually, and deleted all of their posts. This habit has been repeated many times over recent years. Some folks began recording their posts or quoting them to make sure they did not go away.

When those old quotes are posted, they claim they never wrote them, that those who claim they did are all lying.

You can live a lie for a long time. Eventually it will catch up to you and the only defense is more lies.

Perhaps these forums are just a place for people to spin their tall tales and create new histories.

Take care,

Joe

Joe:

Very well, thanks.
And happy to see you are doing better these days.
Yes, it is a shame that so much has been lost over what I feel are unnecessary personality conflicts, but it is what it is I guess.
I have also found that saving some of the more contentious materials and comments can be useful for tracking purposes as well.
Same goes for screenshots of original material and the dates first posted. Those can come in handy when such denials as you mention occur, as well as for crediting purposes if I feel it to be necessary.

Regards:Wayne

 

[cactusjumper]

From a post in 2002:

Joe Ribaudo

Post subject: The Stone Maps Posted: Mon Dec 30, 2002 9:29 pm

Expert Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2002 10:36 pm Posts: 5285

Does anyone know why only two of the Stone Maps are in the picture on the front of the old car? Has anyone seen the other two, prior to their being copied on smaller stones? Do all of the copies conform to the originals, or were some things added and some removed? If you believe they are fake, who was the original perp? If not the finder, how did he end up with them, by chance? Any opinions or facts out there? Joe

 

[cactusjumper]

As you can see, we have been going over this topic for a long time. For others on that forum, it goes back even farther than 2002.

Joe Ribaudo

 

[DiggerGal]

As you can see, we have been going over this topic for a long time. For others on that forum, it goes back even farther than 2002.

Joe Ribaudo

Joe,

Take a look at Ryan and Franks video #6. The Peralta Stones.

 

[deducer]

Goes as far back as December 31, 1969 which is when Roger joined that forum.

 

[cactusjumper]

Joe,

Take a look at Ryan and Franks video #6. The Peralta Stones.

DG,

It goes back much farther for me, I just wasn't discussing the maps in public. I have seen their video's. Very nice job.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Hal Croves]

DING DING DING ! We have a winner !!!! I was beginning to wonder how long it would take. Go to the head of the class Old !

Matthew Roberts,
If possible, would you mind sharing what you know about the photograph featuring the three stones resting on what appears to be a cherry looking 1939 Osmobile 60 Series? Most photographs can be dated based on the method, size, and paper (material) used.

Dating seems a logical first step. Obviously, any printing date before 1948 would take some "esplanen".

The origional, uncropped image would be something to see.

Thank you again Matthew Roberts.

 

[cactusjumper]

Matthew Roberts,
If possible, would you mind sharing what you know about the photograph featuring the three stones resting on what appears to be a cherry looking 1939 Osmobile 60 Series? Most photographs can be dated based on the method, size, and paper (material) used.

Dating seems a logical first step. Obviously, any printing date before 1948 would take some "esplanen".

The origional, uncropped image would be something to see.

Thank you again Matthew Roberts.

Hal,

Just for clarification, the two stone maps are resting on a wooden plank, not another stone.

This is the original picture taken from an original negative that Dr. Glover obtained. He did say he touched up most of the portions of the stones that had fold lines on them.

http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj268/cactus_jumper/OrigPictureStoneMaps.jpg

Matthew may have more information.

Good luck,

Joe

 

[cactusjumper]

This photo is from an 8X10 sent to me by Dr. Glover.

Joe Ribaudo

 

[Hal Croves]

Hal,

Just for clarification, the two stone maps are resting on a wooden plank, not another stone.

This is the original picture taken from an original negative that Dr. Glover obtained. He did say he touched up most of the portions of the stones that had fold lines on them.

http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj268/cactus_jumper/OrigPictureStoneMaps.jpg

Matthew may have more information.

Good luck,

Joe

You are a true gentleman.

It's an interesting photograph for sure.

If that photograph was taken anytime before 1948, then the entire discovery story is suspect. Depending on which discovery date one believes, that Olds was at least nine years old at the time the photograph was taken. There are some who believe the discovery date to be more recent, making that Olds, well, quite old.

The point is, that the 1939 Olds sets some parameters for dating the photograph. It can not be older than 1939ish. Just how long someone could have driven a 1939 Olds, I am clueless. The one in the photograph looks notably clean. The photograph, IMO, after comparing examples of both dates (ebay works), appears to have been taken closer to 1939 then 1948.

Again, that's an opinion.

That photograph should be professionally dated.
I think that the results would surprise most of us.

Thanks Joe.

PS. Yes, I was counting the heart stone as the third.

 

[RG1976]

This photo is from an 8X10 sent to me by Dr. Glover.

Joe Ribaudo

Hey Mr. R -

I know, quite a few years ago, some folks were trying to measure the heart insert as apposed to the diameter of the car headlight. Having a hard time finding that research - between this website and the others.

Does "anyone" know what the analysis of that was?

 

[Hal Croves]

This photo is from an 8X10 sent to me by Dr. Glover.

Joe Ribaudo

Sorry to ask for clarification. Was that image cropped from an 8"x10" photograph? Proportionally, as it is, it doesn't match that format. See attached image set to 8x10.

I am trying to determine the original print size , actually the negative.

Thank Joe!

 

[RG1976]

Good eye, Mr. Croves

That photo is different from what Greg has. Less folds and wrinkles.

Here is a full res of that one - shot with my iPad - exactly from one of Greg's folders on the topic.

 

[cw0909]

there is something in the car bumper img, i see it in every img ive seen on the net
in the upper right, near the window, is i think a picture/s sitting inside the car on
the dashboard, i think i know whats in the pic/s, but you guys tell me what you see
ive highlited a few clips from the img Ryan posted
great vid guys,ill post some thoughts on it in its thread later,want to watch it a few more

 

[sgtfda]

That looks like a reflection in the glass of the Mexican who sold the stones to Travis