Video 4 - The Peralta Stone Maps with Frank Augustine

Hal Croves said:
You are a true gentleman.

It's an interesting photograph for sure.

If that photograph was taken anytime before 1948, then the entire discovery story is suspect. Depending on which discovery date one believes, that Olds was at least nine years old at the time the photograph was taken. There are some who believe the discovery date to be more recent, making that Olds, well, quite old.

The point is, that the 1939 Olds sets some parameters for dating the photograph. It can not be older than 1939ish. Just how long someone could have driven a 1939 Olds, I am clueless. The one in the photograph looks notably clean. The photograph, IMO, after comparing examples of both dates (ebay works), appears to have been taken closer to 1939 then 1948.

Again, that's an opinion.

That photograph should be professionally dated.
I think that the results would surprise most of us.

Thanks Joe.

PS. Yes, I was counting the heart stone as the third.
Click to expand...


Hal Croves,

"That photograph should be professionally dated.
I think that the results would surprise most of us."

And we have another winner !

Matthew
 

RG1976 said:
Good eye, Mr. Croves

That photo is different from what Greg has. Less folds and wrinkles.

Here is a full res of that one - shot with my iPad - exactly from one of Greg's folders on the topic.
Click to expand...

Ryan,
I think that if you took some time to focus on one critical, tangible piece of the story, in this case, the original photo which appears to have been produced as some type of cabinet card, you would make real headway. Is it 1948ish or, 1939ish? Confirming it either way would be big.

Greg's image looks like a photostat copy or photo (BW) of the original photo on board. I am not sure.

Bottom left hand corner is the photo-studio name... Cox Co.? Fox Co.?
Find them. Date the photo-card. Post your discovery.
A pre 1948 date would change everything.
 

Hal Croves said:
Ryan,
I think that if you took some time to focus on one critical, tangible piece of the story, in this case, the original photo which appears to have been produced as some type of cabinet card, you would make real headway. Is it 1948ish or, 1939ish? Confirming it either way would be big.

Greg's image looks like a photostat copy or photo (BW) of the original photo on board. I am not sure.

Bottom left hand corner is the photo-studio name... Cox Co.? Fox Co.?
Find them. Date the photo-card. Post your discovery.
A pre 1948 date would change everything.
Click to expand...

That's not really something that interests me - however I can see how it'd be important to some.

The final straw for me was the handwriting on the manuscript compared to the script on the stones.

Im unsure how I pre-1948 would change "anything" considering the story bounces all over the place - from the maps being sold at a gas station - to Tom Kollenborns account - to all the reasons why travis stopped at queen creek.

Im already convinced, as I showed in video 6, that the bumper maps are not the same maps displayed elsewhere.
 

RG1976 said:
Hey Mr. R -

I know, quite a few years ago, some folks were trying to measure the heart insert as apposed to the diameter of the car headlight. Having a hard time finding that research - between this website and the others.

Does "anyone" know what the analysis of that was?
Click to expand...

Ryan,

I was one of the people doing that research. The headlights are "right at 7" diameter. As I recall, that put the stones at around 18" wide and 13" tall. Memory is not so good, so you might want to double check that.

Take care,

Joe
 

RG1976 said:
That's not really something that interests me - however I can see how it'd be important to some.

The final straw for me was the handwriting on the manuscript compared to the script on the stones.

Im unsure how I pre-1948 would change "anything" considering the story bounces all over the place - from the maps being sold at a gas station - to Tom Kollenborns account - to all the reasons why travis stopped at queen creek.

Im already convinced, as I showed in video 6, that the bumper maps are not the same maps displayed elsewhere.
Click to expand...

I've been in the camp that believes Travis was involved in some if not all of the carving of the Peralta Stones for a multitude of reasons and I don't believe the stones we see on the car bumper and those in the museum are the same either, but I don't see the comparison you're pointing to between the manuscript title page lettering and the letters on the stones. Specifically I'm looking at the flat topped A and the hook upwards at the bottom of the L's on the manuscript - neither of which are even close imho to what's on the stones.

Really nice video again though - did you try to talk Greg into making a "cameo" appearance?? :). I'll make a guess at what Frank is holding in his hand at the end - is it photographs and information related to yet another spot where the stone maps were supposedly found out in that same general area?
 

RG1976 said:
That's not really something that interests me - however I can see how it'd be important to some.

The final straw for me was the handwriting on the manuscript compared to the script on the stones.

Im unsure how I pre-1948 would change "anything" considering the story bounces all over the place - from the maps being sold at a gas station - to Tom Kollenborns account - to all the reasons why travis stopped at queen creek.

Im already convinced, as I showed in video 6, that the bumper maps are not the same maps displayed elsewhere.
Click to expand...

Noted.

I am not sure what to say about the handwriting on the manuscript cover. As another member already posted, there are similarities yes but, they are far from the same font.

And, you are convinced that the bumper maps are not the same displayed elsewhere.

Ryan,
If the stones were photographed before they were allegedly dug up, it would change everything. The discovery site(s), the names, the dates, everything would need to be rethought. It would suggest that the stones, three of them at least, were discovered sometime before Travis became involved.

It would suggest that someone else discovered the three bumper maps in that photograph, at a date earlier than 1948.


If that is not interesting, what is?
 

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Hal Croves said:
Ryan,
I think that if you took some time to focus on one critical, tangible piece of the story, in this case, the original photo which appears to have been produced as some type of cabinet card, you would make real headway. Is it 1948ish or, 1939ish? Confirming it either way would be big.

Greg's image looks like a photostat copy or photo (BW) of the original photo on board. I am not sure.

Bottom left hand corner is the photo-studio name... Cox Co.? Fox Co.?
Find them. Date the photo-card. Post your discovery.
A pre 1948 date would change everything.
Click to expand...



I did that about 4 years ago.
The first thing I did, after looking for comparably bordered prints online, was to print out a copy of the photo and take it to a couple of the oldest surviving Camera shops in my area. At the first, none of the staff I spoke with could help. But at the second, the owner and son of the founder, who was about 80 yrs old himself, recognized the print as being of post war vintage. He said that during the war print paper and chemicals were hard to come by, and he couldn't remember seeing such bordered prints of that vintage. It was a couple of years later, when the post war baby boom began, and people had more money to spend, that home photography again became popular. There were many styles and sizes of bordered print stock available in the late 40's to mid 60's time frame, but they cost extra so most people only asked for them for special photos...wedding albums etc.
I found a Coxco in WA., still involved in the photography business, but it had changed hands and the respondent couldn't answer any of my questions.
 

CW, that image is of a guy stnding outside of the car= drivers side = taken through the windows, front and driver's side

p.s. That looks like the format of a folding 620 camera, roll film, not an 8 x 10 which was a large format camera??..
 

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Cubfan64 said:
I've been in the camp that believes Travis was involved in some if not all of the carving of the Peralta Stones for a multitude of reasons and I don't believe the stones we see on the car bumper and those in the museum are the same either, but I don't see the comparison you're pointing to between the manuscript title page lettering and the letters on the stones. Specifically I'm looking at the flat topped A and the hook upwards at the bottom of the L's on the manuscript - neither of which are even close imho to what's on the stones.

Really nice video again though - did you try to talk Greg into making a "cameo" appearance?? :). I'll make a guess at what Frank is holding in his hand at the end - is it photographs and information related to yet another spot where the stone maps were supposedly found out in that same general area?
Click to expand...

Cubfan64,

You make an excellent point. The letters on the manuscript and the letters on the stone are very similar in some letters but very different in others. Did Travis Tumlinson forget how he made the letters A and L when he carved the stone ?

It looks as if there is some selective conclusion at work. If you pick out 2 or 3 letters that look similar and say, " AHA ! Tumlinson carved the stones proof positive "! While ignoring 2 or more letters that are not similar, your reasoning much less your conclusion isn't on very solid ground.

Matthew
 

I replied to everyone's questions in the video 6 thread. Any chance we can move the conversation over there so we don't have 2 threads going on at the same time about the same topic? That way we can organize better and keep people involved.
 

somehiker said:
I did that about 4 years ago.
The first thing I did, after looking for comparably bordered prints online, was to print out a copy of the photo and take it to a couple of the oldest surviving Camera shops in my area. At the first, none of the staff I spoke with could help. But at the second, the owner and son of the founder, who was about 80 yrs old himself, recognized the print as being of post war vintage. He said that during the war print paper and chemicals were hard to come by, and he couldn't remember seeing such bordered prints of that vintage. It was a couple of years later, when the post war baby boom began, and people had more money to spend, that home photography again became popular. There were many styles and sizes of bordered print stock available in the late 40's to mid 60's time frame, but they cost extra so most people only asked for them for special photos...wedding albums etc.
I found a Coxco in WA., still involved in the photography business, but it had changed hands and the respondent couldn't answer any of my questions.
Click to expand...

Somehiker,

It sounds like you were researching the photocard which, as we now know, was created using an existing photograph. Coxco, if they could, would only be able to tell you when the photocard was ordered and or produced, not when the original photograph was taken. Unless Coxco took it, which, based on the quality, I doubt.
 

vor said:
Curious how the "blacked out" or dark side of the car just happens to stop at the windshield pillar.
Click to expand...

That blacked out area, if you adjust the contrast and shadow in preview (or similar), appears to be in shadow, perhaps something architectural.
 

Wayne

Yes , the mark on the rock and the map , show the end of the trail , but from a different view angle than we are used to see .
Let me guess , the heart pocket on the rock if was on a map , would points to the NW ?

smaller perficio.jpg
 

The heart pocket is in a nearly vertical part of the "boulder", which is a relatively soft sandstone type rock which is embedded in a off-white deposit of cemented volcanic ash, or tuffa. The color is very close to what you see in the photo. The pocket is slightly inclined to the right, just as it is on the drawing. Being almost vertical, the heart pocket points up, and likely to what is above and a bit to the right.
If the pocket was to be shown on a map, such as a topo map, with the top of the map to the north,it would point to N-NE about 10-15 degrees.

Regards: Wayne
 

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