Treasure Trove Permits

[Blazer]

Mrs. "O"

I'm not sorry at all that I started you on that.
I wish you would shout it louder and from a higher Hilltop!

Are any organizations like the GPAA or anyone else working for the cause?

The things you describe have been slowly going on for the last few years, in the Tonto National Forest which surrounds the Superstition Wilderness Area. They are closing the roads and replanting them with desert flora. Apparently to lay the groundwork for inclusion of more area into the designated wilderness.

You may think that the Forest Service is not the culprit and you may be right. But I think there is just as good a chance that the US Congress is placing their votes based on information (Required annual reports) provided to them buy the Forest Service. Those annual reports should be public record. As an example, when all the newly planted flora in the existing roads catches hold and the old roads are no longer visable, The Forest sends in a report that this area has NO ROADS in it and recommends that Congress recognize it as a "roadless" area. I think our Congressional representatives are being misled. No telling how much backscratching is going on behind closed doors.

If no one else will listen, it might be worth while to get some rag magazine like the National Inquirer interested in it enough to do a story on it. They LOVE printing big headlines like,

"US GOVERNMENT NOT FOLLOWING THEIR OWN RULES"

Blazer

 

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[Oroblanco]

Greetings,

Blazer wrote: I hope to be through talking about the stone maps because they are not my favorite topic.

Fine with me - not my favorite subject either. I am not sure how it even came up in this thread.

Not trying to steal Mrs Oro's spot here, but Blazer brought up some interesting points, like:
Are any organizations like the GPAA or anyone else working for the cause?


GPAA claims to be working on our behalf, but in truth I don't know what they are doing along that line. On the other side of this question is who/whom is causing these "wildernesses" and monuments, etc to be created, eating up vast areas of public lands and locking out us prospectors, hunters, etc - the Forest Service seems to be always reacting to lawsuits in helping to create wildernesses etc. The folks who are suing the Forest Service, along with the Feds in general to "force" the government to create wildernesses are our good old friends the Sierra Club and their allies like the Nature's Conservancy. These private clubs include a couple million members, and the clubs act as proxy lobbyists to get politicians to make wildernesses. We went to a couple of meetings with the Forest Service and the BLM when the Sierra Club and Nature's Conservancy were trying to make a strange "horizon to horizon" zone along an old stagecoach road, FREE of human beings and any sign of human activity. We were told that it didn't matter what the local people of Wyoming wanted, because the total population was less than a half million and the Sierra Club had two million members! So this private club, which represents less than one percent of the total population of the United States, wields power as if they were representing the majority of Americans!

I think these private clubs' power needs to be reined in, maybe do some investigating too. Sure they were in the forefront to protect the Bald Eagles when they were in danger of being wiped out - but they are now quietly using such things as a sub-species of rat, a type of FLY etc to block off huge tracts of lands all over the USA - locking US out, while THEY can continue to enjoy the lands the way they like to. So it is okay for THEIR members to "pursue happiness" but NOT for US. The United States is a virtual mineral treasure house, and as that old saying goes, if you can't grow it, you must mine it - and we have the best levels of environmental protection for mining, mining produces high paying jobs, and even when mines are played out today, the lands are generally restored to "pristine" to the best of our abilities. The old habit of stripping the land and running is in the past, but our government policies have been pushing mining companies to foreign countries where there are few environmental laws and labor practices can be horrific.

We also hear those "isms" that modern mining companies find all the new deposits, the 'little guy' doesn't have any effect - but the fact is that over 90% of all mineral discoveries are made by individual prospectors; few mining companies are willing to spend the time and expense to search for new deposits - for there is a great deal of searching involved to find any new deposits. The steps of core drilling etc don't occur until after the mineral deposit has been located by the prospector. That old 1872 mining law needs to be kept in place, and perhaps even get after our politicians to lift the moratorium against patenting mining claims.

Before I get off the soap box, we should all take the time and effort to write our congressmen and perhaps the president too to push to keep those public lands open to the public, and instead of adding more wildernesses (by pretending roads don't exist or playing word games like they did in the Desert Protection Act, calling many dirt roads "routes" so they would not count as "roads") to fund the jewels of our parks systems like Yellowstone, Grand Canyon and Yosemite, all of which have a tremendous amount of repair and maintenance work needed but NOT done because the funds were not appropriated, we don't have an unlimited amount of lands in America and with a population of 300 million (geez no wonder it seems crowded everywhere!) we have need of more mines! More mines means a need for more prospectors, and lifting that moratorium on patenting would allow the prospector to protect his/her investment by complete ownership of the discovery. If you (dear reader) do write to your congressman, don't forget to mention that you VOTE too, and no private club has the right to vote!

Not to throw more rocks at our government, but a look at Yukon territory programs shows how differently the two countries (US-Canada)view prospectors - Yukon had a program to re-imburse the expenses of prospectors (not sure if they still do, that was several years ago) and several other programs to encourage prospectors, instead of the very different attitude we usually get from our government officials (including some Forest Service and BLM personnel, Scott not included here!) that seems to view us as some kind of looters or thieves.

Sorry about the rant, didn't mean to hijack anything Mrs Oro might post.

Oroblanco

 

[Blazer]

ORO

If you (dear reader) do write to your congressman, don't forget to mention that you VOTE too, and no private club has the right to vote!

Very true Oro, but the two million members of the Sierra Club each have a vote and they write lots of letters too. Even if you and I could get two thousand people to send letters to McCain and Kyl , they most likely would never see them personally. They have Aides that open the mail and place a checkmark on a spread sheet that represents what the person is for or against. All the Senator sees is the final tally of checkmarks. An exception would be a "Special" letter that touches on something that the Senator has a special interest in, or something that could grow into national news that might become an election issue.

A couple thousand checkmarks wouldn't go very far on the opposite side of the column from the hundreds of thousands, or millions of checkmarks in the Sierra Club side of the column.

What is needed is an Independent Congressional Investigation into the Morality and legality of some of the things that you have mentioned above. We need to establish a NEW column on the spreadsheet that will draw the interest of Every Voting American, not just the Prospectors and Small Miners who are out numbered by the organized and outspoken Private Clubs.

The issue needs to be focused on the root of the problem which affects all Americans, and ALL Americans will take notice of a headline along the lines of "US Government NOT complying with it's own Laws". That would bring in 10's of Millions of letters to ALL of our Congressional Representatives, from Maine to California, and that many checkmarks will get their attention.

That old 1872 mining law needs to be kept in place, and perhaps even get after our politicians to lift the moratorium against patenting mining claims.

You bet it does! The sad part is that IT IS IN PLACE, it is just being circumvented to pacify the private clubs and keep them from making too many waves that might have an effect on election results.

The issue of the currrent US Congress giving the stamp of approval on things that conflict with pre-existing Laws is something that every Voter can understand complain about!

We are not asking for anything NEW, or for anything that already exists to be changed. All we want is what our previously elected representatives already gave us, to be recognized and honored! Govermental Agency or not. If they are not performing in compliance with the written law, then they are in violation of it, and that is an unacceptable circumstance that needs to be corrected!

It's my guess that no more than 30 or 40 letters to the people at http://www.nationalenquirer.com/ could result in a story being done and really get the ball rolling for bringing this issue into national headlines!

I have written to them already and included a link to this forum. I think Oro's personal experiences would make an excellent example for them to base the story on.

Blazer

 

[Springfield]

" ... The issue of the currrent US Congress giving the stamp of approval on things that conflict with pre-existing Laws is something that every Voter can understand complain about!..."

I love your sense of justice and outrage, Blazer .. reminds me of myself back inthe summer of '68 in Chicago when I naively believed that The People should have a say in the way things were being run in our Democracy. Write letters, protest questionable activities, do the right thing, vote the rascals out, etc. But as Carlin observed some years ago, "The two-party system is merely a cynical ploy designed to convince the chumps that they have a choice in their government".

Well, we've just recently had a new mandate from The People ... let's just see how the new Congress facilitates that mandate. Methinks there will be lots of talk and very little change. Meet the new boss, same as the old boss. You can complain all you want, B, but these people DON"T CARE what you think. BushCo, continuing the looting of America by Reagan, Bush 1 and Clinton, has recently gutted our cultural bedrock, the Constitution. It seems to me that your complaints about legal compliance of land codes in Arizona smacks of rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic.

 

[Blazer]

Soringfield,

Of course EVERYTHING you (and Carlin) said is MOSTLY true. (Past and Present).

But it does not have to be that way in the future.

The current Congress has just approved an action that requires the names of Congressmen that attach permanant earmarks to bills to identify the Representatives that authored them. (and make it public information)The intent being to make it easier for anybody to backtrack to the sources of approved changes. It is a small step towards future accountability for past actions. (If I understand it correctly)

I think the Oklahoma City bombing, and the 911 disaster have spoken loud to our government that it's own people and the peoples of foreign lands are fed up with the way they do business. Don't get me wrong, I do not condone either of these actions, but if all else fails to get their attention, I think you will see more Americans and foreign nations reacting in the same manner.

With the new accountability in affect, it will be a lot easier to focus on the root of the problem and individual representatives could find themselves as the targets of retaliation (as it should be) instead of targeting Government Buildings and innocent employees.

A lot of changes have come about since Ok, City, the Randy Weaver Case, the Waco, TX incident and the WTC disaster. Congress IS LISTENING and I don't think they enjoy evacuating the Capitol every time there is a subtle threat that there might be a bomb in the Building . It's getting very personal for those guys now and they don't even know if the threats are coming from inside or outside the country. I wonder how they feel when they are walking from their car into their homes?

Now is a great time to tell them what we want. While they are LISTENING.

Their plates are so full with foreign affairs and the threats of foreign terrorist attacks, that the last thing they need to worry about right now is maintaining their fight for the closure of public lands. (just to satisfy the Sierra Club, etc.)

We could not have manipulated ourselves into a better position or better time to say that WE HAVE HAD ENOUGH!

Blazer

 

[Blazer]

So many things get hidden in those Bills. Even if a representative does read it all, the language is often Reverse Polish so a negative vote results in a affirmative vote FOR the Bill. Just like in our local elections where you have to vote YES for something to fail and NO for it to pass. Someday that will be outlawed too, but we probably won't live long enough to see it.


Blazer

 

[the blindbowman]

Evidence ....real evidence ! not a leed not a clue . not i guess ! not a whats this ... and can you dirrectly connect the evidence to the legend or part of the legends known facts or known clues or leeds . there is the real question ? ...

now we found evidence we postive of that yet can the evidence pan out .. panning takes time as you all know ... but the pay off comes to those willing to take the time and locate the best areas ... ...or to those willing to use what clues the beleave and locate the sorce of the trace evidence to the main location...

we have facts and yet we have logicial evidence hiden with in those facts and clues of the LDM ..

as i see it IMHO there are seen and unseen evidence and how we collect the evidence is as importain as how we under stand it and our translation of the evidence . in the case of the treasure trove . the evidence has to be proven evidence yet as we all know few leeds or clues in the LDM legend have any real evidence value let alone logicially connect to anything else in the legend ...

i have been chaceing leeds and evidence for months now and knowing doing it in the hopes to find even a faded paths lost in this legend ... and yes i have found some paths ... it will take time to defind there meaning and value yet the paths are there ...

we have found what we beleave is evidence . will it pan out we can only wait and see .....

some of you here at times have stated your opioions about the acounts of said people within the legend yet . i can only stated that what you read is not always the truth and what looks like lies could in fact be real evidence if translated in the right manner ..we can only try to translate what is known in as many ways as we can and hope to find a signial peice of evidence at a time ...and if that evidence leeds us to a path great , if not we must set it aside and not forget it , and hope it fits in somewhere later on down the trail ...

there are a lot of opioions here at the site none of them are out right wrong untill proven wrong yet that may not mean they have no value because we do not in fact know the value of 80% of the legends clues or evidence as of yet !

we hopeing to take pictures of evidence that will prove what i saw was the LDM yet our research has taken us away from our main goal as of yet ...

so we are going to refocus and get more pictures and focus on our goal . be it the LDM or not ... will i get my treasure trove permits only time can say if there is enough evidence out there left to prove the evidences is real and shows evidence related to the LDM it self ...


it is up to us to respect the mts and the value of the evidence needed for these permits . yet in under standingf the reason for the permits in the frist place ...

i have never seen as much trash in any real legend as i have seen in the LDM< legend ....

yet there is evidence that the legend is true and it is real evidence IMHO ...


i saw something and it told me the acounts and maps and stones of this legend were real evidence i took the path and ended up find 5 real sites ... time will till if they are real site with real evidence or not ...

all i can say is keep a open mind . look at the evidence and judge it for your selfs . dont judge the people puting what they can on the table . we dont know yet what its value to the known evidence will be yet ...

any clues or evidence at this point must be seen as valueable yet even not knowing its evidence value or its value to the over all legend or how the evidence even fits in to the odd logic of this amazeing legend ....and yes confuseing at time legend ...lol


you take care and keep the ink working for a common goal ...

i heard a man dug up a spring in the mts . yet found nothing . i can do that ....i will be sure or i will walk away . valueable evidence or not ...

what is the value of wealth if we our to sell our souls to find it ....?

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Mam gentlemen also ORO:, not sure about djui since he intends to milk me of my Mexican data, sigh, however--- l will redirect back to the stones to clear up a critical point.

It has been inferred that they were possibly "lost" from a mule/burro train. Unfortunately this never happens in real life. Having spent years in the Mexican barrancas and Sierras during the successful search for Tayopa, I can flatly state, "no-way". Burro strings/trains are never run as the movies show, with our intrepid Hero in front with the string behind him, perhaps on a lead rope.

While it is common to have a lead man where no trails exist, there are always one or more men trailing the pack string. They serve a specific, very important purpose, they were there to help any animal that has trouble, such as a shifted load or a loose one etc. - it does happen , believe me - either of which may disable your animal with no replacement possible in those days.

Under these conditions I cannot accept a casual loss, they were deliberately placed there for what reason and by whom ? REAVES REAVES best candidate

+{:>D ) ---+ > ORO.>.

Tropical Tramp (he Saint)

 

[Blazer]

TT,

It has been inferred that they were possibly "lost" from a mule/burro train.

I never saw that one inferred before. That is a new twist. Where did you read it?

Blazer

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

HI Blazer my friend, Your post # 169, not bemg picky or a pest, just remarking.


"you forget, I don’t think they were ever buried, intentionally by man anyway.
I stated that I believed the theory that they were lost and sank into the ground over time and many monsoon rains. You will have to ask someone that believes they were buried for later retrieval. It is a GOOD question tho, and I like it. There are no distinguishing marks anywhere in the area, other than Queen Creek that runs for miles. All the more reason to believe that they were lost there not buried there, right? I did already mention that the Old Spanish Trail through the mountains runs right through the area tho didn’t "


Tropical Tramp

 

[the blindbowman]

yes i agree but you miss under stand the sighting of the jesuit's mule train . if in fact there was one . of that size . the stones very well could have fallen from a mule in the med of train and been over looked for another good reason . . i ask you this how many people would it take to controll a mule train of that size . i have acounts of 8-9 jesuit's that were close friends of KIno . yet IMHO the peralta were ask to help them and this may be how they knew the location of the Dutchman and may not have know about the tunnle it self .maybe one of the peralta found the stones frist and than left them hopeing to recover a map to the mine again after the jesuits were gone . and thats funny that what we see in the legend today . if the peralta did help the jesuits they could have taken some of the stones them self and that may be how they knew the location the stated they had gotten the mine from the jesuit ,,... maybe like many others they could have in fact stold the maps from the jesuits makeing maps for them selfs and than leaveing the stone maps where they were found in case the jesuit descroverd there loss .. in this way they could find the mine again yet the jesuits would know it at the time ...... '

there are to many ifs here to know one way or the other yet logic tells me i just beleave the jesuits gave the location to the peralta if they did know its location ...


if Kino was the leeder of the jesuits and he placed the chruch's wealth there than there was no logicial reason to give the location to anyone out side of the jesuits them selfs and who is to say the peralta were not jesuits?...

IMHO from what i know so far . the peralta -ruth maps and the stones locate the same place 3 sites ...

we are looking at the wagon trail at this point in time because it is out of place .. we dont know why it is there and it leaves questions where there is evidence of the wagon trail yet it goes from point A at the tunnle area to a near by Mt . the spainish arrow is about 45 yards from where that wagon trail vanishes ...the wagon trail passes within 20 ft of the nephew site ....this tells me it is most likely that the dutchman knew the wagon trail was there at the time of the nephews death if that is the nephew ... the other thing i take note of is if the dutchman knew the wagon trail was there he most likely knew why it was made and when and by who .... the other thing i wonder is what if it is not a wagon trail .. what if it is part of the apache trail ..

we can only say it goes from the tunnle area to the near by mt 2/3 of the way up and vanishes it could go up the mt more to some kind of cave or vanishes in to some kind of a vault area ....

my point is they moved something from the tunnle area to that area for some reason yet unknown ...what you have not been told is the path splits into two trails one goes around the mts and down to another trail and the one goes up and vanishes ..

and yes i have scaled photos of the path that goes around the mt and it is not on any hikeing guides or maps i have seen yet ...

i will also say when we got close to the tunnle area we found large cat tracks , large like 5 inches around and we did not feel very safe after that . i will take a 45 colt next time ...the idea of being coverd in a land slid is more welcome than being eaten or malled by a large cat ...

there is a few good reason i said i beleave i had found the stone house in the cave , yes it is acrossed from the tunnle area . and yes it could and is of size to hide a hiden camp or a few caves , we found 4 guard towers in the area one of them is where the spainish arrow was found ...i saw another cave near the one the spainish arrow was found yet i could not find away into it . it was about 25 ft around and was about 50 ft south of the spainish arrow cave . so there is 3 large cave that can not be seen untill you are right with in ft of them .... i will be takeing climbing ropes next time they are allmost to steep to climb into ...and i am a good rock climber ....if you fall it would be a bad one if you lived threw it ...

the point i am trying to make is .. if we are to question the evidence let us do it at all levels . i see a dirrect relationship between the stones the maps and the LDM legend to the sites i have found yet even i dont beleave the Dick holmes acount is good evidence .... yet from my location i under stand the values of what was stated to him vs the lies to misleed him at the same time ...if we our to look at the stones . i read the translation of the trail stone as well as i read this page lol .. the stones are easy for me to read .. in fact i gave a copy of the translation to scott wood .... yet as we all know this is not evidence in the LDM legend .. it is unknow clues ...

so unless the stones translation points the evidnece in the LDM . it has little true evidence value for the permits ...

 

[Blazer]

TT.

HI Blazer my friend, Your post # 169, not bemg picky or a pest, just remarking.


"you forget, I don’t think they were ever buried, intentionally by man anyway.
I stated that I believed the theory that they were lost and sank into the ground over time and many monsoon rains. You will have to ask someone that believes they were buried for later retrieval. It is a GOOD question tho, and I like it. There are no distinguishing marks anywhere in the area, other than Queen Creek that runs for miles. All the more reason to believe that they were lost there not buried there, right? I did already mention that the Old Spanish Trail through the mountains runs right through the area tho didn’t "

Tropical Tramp

Now I see where you are coming from. You changed the story so much I didn't recognize it, by adding MULE/BURRO TRAIN and all of the dialogue about the trains and how they operated.

I never inferred any train of Mules or Burros was involved.

I included a link to my source material where I got the idea they were lost from.
The source never mentions a Mule/BurroTrain either. Just ONE MULE running from the site of an ongoing battle.

Are you familiar with the story of the Indian uprising against the Jesuits in 1751, and the story of the Mexican Massacre in the Superstitions around 1848?

Blazer

 

[Oroblanco]

Greetings,
I see the discussion has returned to The Stones and Peraltas etc.

Blindbowman wrote: who is to say the peralta were not jesuits?.

Blindbowman, there is reason to think that the Peraltas (whether involved with anything in the Superstitions or not) would not have been Jesuits; the Jesuits were run out of the New World by order of the king of Spain, 1767. It would be unlikely that any Jesuits would still be hanging around eighty years later. Father Kino is the most famous today but was not the only Jesuit priest to operate in Sonora, though the extent of Kino's explorations did not include the Superstitions at least by his own account.

Blazer wrote:
...the story of the Mexican Massacre in the Superstitions around 1848?

There is an alternate version of who/whom the skeletal remains could have been, already discussed. Do you know of any contemporary source (written 1847-48) that tells of a large party of missing Mexicans, for 1847-48?

Oroblanco

 

[Blazer]

Oro,

There is an alternate version of who/whom the skeletal remains could have been.

There are alternate versions of just about everything that is supposed to have happened during that time period. Including Custer's last stand. Who can say what really happened?

I would say the best contemporary sources would have been someone that was an eyewitness. Apache Jack comes to mind as one example. His story is recorded in several books.

My own opinion (with reservations) would lean more towards the uprising against the Jesuits in the 1751, for when the stone maps became seperated from their owners, and lost where they were found.

Father Kino is the most famous today but was not the only Jesuit priest to operate in Sonora, though the extent of Kino's explorations did not include the Superstitions at least by his own account.

There are some discrepancies between Kino's written records of where he was and what it did, and some of the maps he left behind.

Most historical records say that Kino never ventured North of Casa Grande, but I have seen a map put out by the Arizona Pioneers' Historical Society, that shows Father Sedelmayr (Kino's replacement) traveling North from Casa Grande all the way to the Salt River in 1744, (following a route that had been previously laid out by Kino). He may have been in the Superstitions, or not, but it is possible that he was.

Blazer

 

[Oroblanco]

Greetings,

Blazer wrote: There are alternate versions of just about everything that is supposed to have happened during that time period. Including Custer's last stand. Who can say what really happened?

Uh-huh. Well it would sure help the case of the whole Jesuit-Peralta-stone map legend if there were contemporary sources that could help to confirm/substantiate some part of the legends. Unfortunately there doesn't seem to be any. Apache Jack was not contemporary, he would have been either a tiny baby in 1847 or un-born. Time-table problem. Remember he was working with Bark in 1912, and was not an old man then. Also his gold mine ledge was of a quite different ore, described as black with gold spots like stars in the night; this deposit was supposedly found by Bark and Ely years later and worked and matches the description of the secret Pima ledge.

There are some discrepancies between Kino's written records of where he was and what it did, and some of the maps he left behind.

Most historical records say that Kino never ventured North of Casa Grande, but I have seen a map put out by the Arizona Pioneers' Historical Society, that shows Father Sedelmayr (Kino's replacement) traveling North from Casa Grande all the way to the Salt River in 1744, (following a route that had been previously laid out by Kino). He may have been in the Superstitions, or not, but it is possible that he was.


I have a question for you Blazer and for everyone really - why do we need to include legends of Peraltas, Jesuits, father Kino, stone maps etc when it is not necessary? We know there was a man named Jacob Waltz, that he had a very rich gold deposit in a secret mine that he went to some efforts to hide. His gold was different from any known source, and he shipped out a fair fortune in his lifetime. There have been at least two other good gold deposits also discovered in the region (such as that mentioned above, found and worked by Bark and Ely as well as Wagoner's ledge of rose quartz) and plenty of history since 1891, including shoot-outs, murders, mysterious dis-appearances, and hidden caches of gold. There is evidence of Spanish mining and Jesuits at work in Arizona, but well south. When we cannot substantiate much of the legend of Jesuits, Peraltas and stone maps, why be bothered with trying to use them as clues? Do we have some kind of need to have Spanish or Mexicans and missionaries involved with a lost mine?

Oroblanco

 

[Blazer]

Oro,

We know there was a man named Jacob Waltz, that he had a very rich gold deposit in a secret mine that he went to some efforts to hide.

We ONLY know this by what some people wrote. In many cases the same people wrote about the Mexican Miners and the Jesuits involvement.

By some accounts Apache Jack participated in the covering of the mines after the massacre. A young boy yes, but old enough to have witnessed the battle.

You see, Nothing you can refer to means anything unless you include the source. Some sources have more creditability than others. I think Jim Bark would be an excellent source, but I do not consider the "Bark Notes" that are in circulation as anything even close to Barks REAL Notes. The most often quoted set of Bark Notes is the Probert version (Seen in Helen Corbin's book) of the Aylor version of the Spangler version, that Spangler left in Aylor's camp. (to ensure that they got circulated). Why else would Spangler take the whole set of notes into Aylor's camp and leave them there alone with Aylor? Aylor hand copied them and Probert typed them up. Did Aylor change anything, did Probert? Did Spangler?

We can quote from the version of the Barks Notes that are in circulation, but we have no way of knowing what the originals said. It is also btw, rumored that there up to six other versions of the Bark Notes in circulation beside Proberts. None of them exactly alike.

The stone maps still not being my favorite topic, I would favor them over the Bark Notes for being authentic any day!


Blazer

 

[Oroblanco]

Blazer wrote:We ONLY know this by what some people wrote. In many cases the same people wrote about the Mexican Miners and the Jesuits involvement.

Blazer, check Helen Corbin's book The Curse of the Dutchman's Gold for documentation on Waltz, includes five documents signed by Waltz; he was absolutely a real person, emigrated to the USA petitioned for citizenship 1848, received his citizenship in Los Angeles 1861; homesteaded a quarter section on the Salt river in what is today Phoenix, was possibly involved in a murder at his home June 1884 (though he claimed the dead Mexican's friend did it using his borrowed shotgun!) and died in October of 1891. He can be proven to have existed, those legendary Peralta mines, Jesuits etc are not substantiated. You may not like what I post but check for yourself. Since that night in 1891, we have had writers adding on fiction to the bare bones facts, publishing fiction as if it were facts etc to the point where we now have a whole layer of legend built on top. Bicknell and Storm are at the root of a good amount of it. Yes there are bits of truth in there, but with a lot of added-on crap.

You see, Nothing you can refer to means anything unless you include the source.

See the book suggested above, among many. I have some experience in searching for the Lost Dutchman, just FYI. Since you don't like to take anything I might write on the subject, how about this, quote:

"There is not one shred of evidence to suggest the Peraltas ever mined in the Superstition Mountains or that they were massacred by the Apaches. source - Apache Junction Library Archaeological Society, http://www.ajpl.org/aj/superstition/ldm.htm

Peirpont C. Bicknell , more than any one person, may be responsible for the tale of the Dutchman's Lost Mine. P.C. Bicknell was the earliest writer to associate Weaver's Needle, the Peraltas and Jacob Waltz with the Dutchman's Lost Mine in his writing. ibid

There is little doubt among historians that Peirpont Constable Bicknell took a writer's liberty to exaggerate the truth in much of his written material about lost mines. Any separation of fact from fiction must start with Bicknell's published works.

It is doubtful that Barry Storm or Oren Arnold thoroughly researched Bicknell's early work on the Dutchman's Lost Mine. Since 1895, thousands of periodicals have appeared on the Dutchman's Lost Mine and much of the legend can be traced back to Bicknell. Bicknell may have had the earliest impact on the legend itself, but Barry Storm embellished all works he found on the Dutchman, Peraltas or Jesuits. His work impacted the thinking of more contemporary prospectors than any other individual except for the man who perpetrated the infamous Peralta Stone Maps. ibid

Fake maps, lies and imagination formulate the foundation of many tales told about the Superstition Mountain region. During the past three decades investors have lost millions of dollars to unscrupulous con men and promoters. The naive investor better not take the written word of authors or periodical chroniclers without knowing their credentials. Authors and periodical chroniclers often take a writer's liberty to tell a story. Oren Arnold once said it all, when he said, "Don't let the truth stand in the way of a good story." ibid

end quote

I agree with the statements posted above, if that offends anyone well then don't buy my books.

Oroblanco

 

[Blazer]

Oro,

I said:

"You see, Nothing you can refer to means anything unless you include the source".


Then you ended your response with,


Fake maps, lies and imagination formulate the foundation of many tales told about the Superstition Mountain region. During the past three decades investors have lost millions of dollars to unscrupulous con men and promoters. The naive investor better not take the written word of authors or periodical chroniclers without knowing their credentials. Authors and periodical chroniclers often take a writer's liberty to tell a story. Oren Arnold once said it all, when he said, "Don't let the truth stand in the way of a good story." ibid

You sure took the long way around the bush to agree with me.

I have some experience in searching for the Lost Dutchman, just FYI.

Thank you for the information, any particular way you think I should apply it to anything?

Blazer

 

[CuMiner]

Blazer,

Everything oroblanco writes here is rhetorical. It really needs no reply. It's what everyone already knows. You don't invest time and money in someones book or get rich quick scheme without first investigating all the angles. Does O think he's giving us all a good tip here ? (my rhetorical question)

What I find laughable is these armchair know-it-alls who hint to everyone that they KNOW who created the Stone Maps, yet they won't come forward and enlighten us all. What a crock. If they had clue Number 1 about it they wouldn't hesitate to stand up and say what they already know. Of course their long winded, pompous speeches are not about what they know, or don't know for that matter. It's all about them. And thats the beginning, middle and end of their story.

CuMiner

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

HI COPPERMINER: If you are referring to me, some of my credentials are below.

As for ORO, his footprints are found from the deserts to Alaska as both a prospector and lost mine hunter. Beth is generally along to keep him in line.

YOU??

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Blazer, i see that my post on a single mule/burro dropping the stones has disappeared. K I will repeat it.

By the time that a panicky animal had reached the area where the stones were found, it would have calmed down. Any loose load would have been long gone. So it is not logical for this to have happend. It would not linger since there is no grazing there.

I will give you some food for thought though, something that no-one has brought up. I have been waiting for someone to mention it, however --.

New scenario. The mule/burro has arrived at the spot with it's cargo of stones intact, Apache's dearly loved Mule/burro meat, they catch it and simply dump the useless stones on the ground, taking tonight's dinner with them.

Tropical Tramp