Oroblanco
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- Jan 21, 2005
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Hello Blindbowman and everyone,
My apologies for not getting a reply posted sooner, haven't been online the last few days - don't ask! Old age and being decrepit (out of shape!) is NOT fun when you are burying water pipes.....
Oh well now to get to the details...
Blindbowman wrote:
did you say there was a wagon trail in the superstitions ?
Yes there are at least TWO of them, as far as I know - one was known as the "Mormon Toll Road" but the real name was the Mesa-Globe toll road; some Mormons got the idea to build a toll road there as a shorter route, and did get some road built but ran out of funds before finishing - the date around 1880-81. The other aborted road I don't know much about but it was also not completed, the date around 1890. I have been looking for the Mormon road, but for totally un-related reasons - for one I think it would be a cool 'trail' to follow on horseback. I know, 'geez Oroblanco that doesn't have anything to do with treasure hunting' well yes, guilty as charged.
Neither road was ever completed, as far as I know - so would seem to run to nowhere, literally.
the trail dosen go anywhere other than the tunnle to this other area and just vanishes by the looks of it ..
It sounds like you might have located either the Mesa-Globe toll road or the other aborted road - however it is pretty tough to estimate an exact date for old roads; I have found old ox-cart trails (Spanish or Mexican) and they look pretty much just like the same sort of dirt roads made by Americans later - narrow wheel ruts are narrow wheel ruts. Did the road seem to run east-west, generally?
i almost forgot . if the dutchman killed the 3 so called peralta and buried them near the hiden camp . we beleave we found the hiden camp and will be looking for those 3 graves as well & the large chache...
Yes, and there is the biggest little word in the English language - IF the Dutchman murdered the three Peraltas and buried them near the hidden camp. This version of events is largely dependent upon the veracity of Holmes, which (in my opinion) is highly questionable - by his version Waltz was a murderous villain and almost a coward as well - which is not in keeping with his known behavior - think about how Waltz behaved with his friends. For example, would you think that a cold-blooded murderer, a man who would kill his own "nephew" that he invited to come work with him, would be the same sort of man who would lend thousands of dollars to his friend Julia Thomas when she was about to lose her bakery/soda shop because she was unable to pay her debts? Does that seem logical to you?
Blindbowman also wrote:we found what looks like a cross and the number 81,1 we are not sure what it is yet ... dose 1881... ring any bells ...
As concerns Jacob Waltz or Peraltas or Jesuits - no - however it is the same date that the Mesa-Globe toll road was being built and abandoned.
i want to ask a few questions about this date . if this is a date . the dutchman would have retrun home in jan of 1881, he says he retrun to Phoenix,, .. in the dick holmes acount ... if so is there any record of him being in phoenix at that time .. and the other thing i wanted to know is there any record of him selling gold in jan of 1881 .. ..
Yes Jacob Waltz can be shown to have been living in Phoenix (actually outside of town, but now the site is well within the city limits) in 1881. There are records of his selling and shipping gold in 1881, but I don't have the exact dates. Waltz made quite a number of trips to the mine over the years from discovery to his being too old and physically unable to return, not just one or two as you read in some versions. If you think about this, it makes sense - with at least $240,000 being shipped to the mint, the sheer weight of the ore means his one little burro (he owned a burro for at least the last ten years of his life which he also rode, as when delivering eggs to Julia to trade for bread etc) would have had to have made more than one or two trips to the mine.
if if this date of 1881 january than we know he was working the mine at that time ...
Hmm well... wouldn't that be making a bit of an assumption? That assumes the date 81 (also see below) is somehow either carved by Waltz or his partner, which we have no record of Waltz leaving any such clues in the Superstitions.
The "81" seems a likely marker left by the builders of the Mesa-Globe toll road; now not to lend credence to the ideas of Spaniards and Jesuits in the Superstitions (this cannot be substantiated) but 1781 also coincides with a period of Spanish expansion in Pimeria Alta/northern Sonora; a whole string of forts were constructed to protect this expansion, though the forts were abandoned just a few years later. Does this prove that there were Spaniards working in the Superstitions in 1781? Of course not, it seems logical that the 81 is related to the toll road builders, but we just can't prove that at this point.
one of the reason i ask was when did his partern wiser die ...?
Weiser (also spelled Wiser, Weisner, Wisner etc) died in the 1870s, which coincides with the period that Waltz is thought to have discovered his mine, according to people who knew him personally in Florence.
he other thing that gets me is this is 10 years before he own death ...
IF (that huge word) the '81' is related to Jacob Waltz, we would be wondering about the meaning for the inscription - however there is no record of Waltz or Weiser leaving such a clue to find.
the other thing if the dick holmes acount is true or parts of it are true than if that started in 1877 that means he only work the mine for 4-5 years at the most, from 1877 to 1881 before killing his nephew and each time he killed someone he returned to phoenix to wait it out to see if anyone got word of it or saw him or missed who was shot or killed .. the reason i say that is look , he says i return the next winter , and he close the mine up the next winter ... so that mean to me that he only worked the mine no more than 5-6 year totally in the winter months ... what year was the flood ?... that would tell us he had been liveing off the small catch no more than 5-7 years at the time of his death ....IMHO
Again, we are working with a version from Holmes, which is in variance with known facts on a number of points - your questions only seem to point up the un-reliability of his account. Based on OTHER reports (excluding Holmes, for the reasons cited earlier) it seems that Waltz never worked too hard at the mine, just went in and got another 'load' and when that ran out he would go back for more. Similar in that respect to the famous Lost Ben Sublett mine, remember Sublett would make a trip to his mine, return with a load of gold and when that ran out would go back for more. Waltz seemed to have followed that pattern as well, though his remaining 'cache' of ore (that taken from beneath his death-bed) was nearly gone when he died. It seems that Waltz did not have the 'greed' we are supposed to attribute to him. According to another source, Waltz made his last trip to the mine a year or a few years at most, after the small dairy farm was built - so he would have been living off the last 'proceeds' only a couple of years by the time he passed away. The flood which resulted in Waltz getting sick (remember he was rescued by his friend Reiney Petrasch) happened in February of 1891.
they may explan why some years he showed up on the cenus and other years he did not ...?
Again we know that Waltz lived in the Bradshaws for some years prior to moving to the Phoenix area, and local residents of both Phoenix and Florence (which he seemed to have made his 'base' for several years while just prospecting) said that Waltz had started a homestead claim on the north bank of the Salt river, but the 'gold-fever' soon returned and he made frequent prospecting trips into the Superstitions.
Blindbowman you made some statements about your photos, that seemed to imply there was something alarming in them - would you care to enlighten me (and the readers)? Or if not, we will be left guessing.
I doubt that I can convince you NOT to rely on the Holmes version of events, however as you have started to find some of the errors and idiosycracies in his (Holmes) account, perhaps you will decide to examine the other versions of events? Yes the other accounts are not nearly as exciting or bloodthirsty, but many points can be proven in this 'other' version; it might change the entire direction of your search.
Oroblanco
PS - Did some looking up, as to the known whereabouts of Jacob Waltz and got this much:
Jacob Waltz is listed in the Territorial Census 1864, 3rd district (Yavapai county) age 54 (he would have been 56 actually) occupation miner, born in Prussia (Germany), resident in Arizona two years. He is also listed in US Census 1880, residing in Phoenix, age 70, occupation farmer born in Prussia (Germany) and is listed in the Great Register for Maricopa county in 1876, 1882 and 1886 as a resident of Phoenix, and that he was naturalized as a citizen on July 19, 1861 in Los Angeles in the First District court.
Senator Hayden has the death of his partner Jacob Weiser as taking place "about 1881" at the ranch of John D. Walker near Florence. Pioneer interviews have an earlier date, as in early 1870s.
I don't think it is going to be possible to "pin down" the exact dates of the movements of Waltz, records were just not kept on that level.
My apologies for not getting a reply posted sooner, haven't been online the last few days - don't ask! Old age and being decrepit (out of shape!) is NOT fun when you are burying water pipes.....
Oh well now to get to the details...Blindbowman wrote:
did you say there was a wagon trail in the superstitions ?
Yes there are at least TWO of them, as far as I know - one was known as the "Mormon Toll Road" but the real name was the Mesa-Globe toll road; some Mormons got the idea to build a toll road there as a shorter route, and did get some road built but ran out of funds before finishing - the date around 1880-81. The other aborted road I don't know much about but it was also not completed, the date around 1890. I have been looking for the Mormon road, but for totally un-related reasons - for one I think it would be a cool 'trail' to follow on horseback. I know, 'geez Oroblanco that doesn't have anything to do with treasure hunting' well yes, guilty as charged.
Neither road was ever completed, as far as I know - so would seem to run to nowhere, literally.the trail dosen go anywhere other than the tunnle to this other area and just vanishes by the looks of it ..
It sounds like you might have located either the Mesa-Globe toll road or the other aborted road - however it is pretty tough to estimate an exact date for old roads; I have found old ox-cart trails (Spanish or Mexican) and they look pretty much just like the same sort of dirt roads made by Americans later - narrow wheel ruts are narrow wheel ruts. Did the road seem to run east-west, generally?
i almost forgot . if the dutchman killed the 3 so called peralta and buried them near the hiden camp . we beleave we found the hiden camp and will be looking for those 3 graves as well & the large chache...
Yes, and there is the biggest little word in the English language - IF the Dutchman murdered the three Peraltas and buried them near the hidden camp. This version of events is largely dependent upon the veracity of Holmes, which (in my opinion) is highly questionable - by his version Waltz was a murderous villain and almost a coward as well - which is not in keeping with his known behavior - think about how Waltz behaved with his friends. For example, would you think that a cold-blooded murderer, a man who would kill his own "nephew" that he invited to come work with him, would be the same sort of man who would lend thousands of dollars to his friend Julia Thomas when she was about to lose her bakery/soda shop because she was unable to pay her debts? Does that seem logical to you?
Blindbowman also wrote:we found what looks like a cross and the number 81,1 we are not sure what it is yet ... dose 1881... ring any bells ...
As concerns Jacob Waltz or Peraltas or Jesuits - no - however it is the same date that the Mesa-Globe toll road was being built and abandoned.
i want to ask a few questions about this date . if this is a date . the dutchman would have retrun home in jan of 1881, he says he retrun to Phoenix,, .. in the dick holmes acount ... if so is there any record of him being in phoenix at that time .. and the other thing i wanted to know is there any record of him selling gold in jan of 1881 .. ..
Yes Jacob Waltz can be shown to have been living in Phoenix (actually outside of town, but now the site is well within the city limits) in 1881. There are records of his selling and shipping gold in 1881, but I don't have the exact dates. Waltz made quite a number of trips to the mine over the years from discovery to his being too old and physically unable to return, not just one or two as you read in some versions. If you think about this, it makes sense - with at least $240,000 being shipped to the mint, the sheer weight of the ore means his one little burro (he owned a burro for at least the last ten years of his life which he also rode, as when delivering eggs to Julia to trade for bread etc) would have had to have made more than one or two trips to the mine.
if if this date of 1881 january than we know he was working the mine at that time ...
Hmm well... wouldn't that be making a bit of an assumption? That assumes the date 81 (also see below) is somehow either carved by Waltz or his partner, which we have no record of Waltz leaving any such clues in the Superstitions.
The "81" seems a likely marker left by the builders of the Mesa-Globe toll road; now not to lend credence to the ideas of Spaniards and Jesuits in the Superstitions (this cannot be substantiated) but 1781 also coincides with a period of Spanish expansion in Pimeria Alta/northern Sonora; a whole string of forts were constructed to protect this expansion, though the forts were abandoned just a few years later. Does this prove that there were Spaniards working in the Superstitions in 1781? Of course not, it seems logical that the 81 is related to the toll road builders, but we just can't prove that at this point.
one of the reason i ask was when did his partern wiser die ...?
Weiser (also spelled Wiser, Weisner, Wisner etc) died in the 1870s, which coincides with the period that Waltz is thought to have discovered his mine, according to people who knew him personally in Florence.
he other thing that gets me is this is 10 years before he own death ...
IF (that huge word) the '81' is related to Jacob Waltz, we would be wondering about the meaning for the inscription - however there is no record of Waltz or Weiser leaving such a clue to find.
the other thing if the dick holmes acount is true or parts of it are true than if that started in 1877 that means he only work the mine for 4-5 years at the most, from 1877 to 1881 before killing his nephew and each time he killed someone he returned to phoenix to wait it out to see if anyone got word of it or saw him or missed who was shot or killed .. the reason i say that is look , he says i return the next winter , and he close the mine up the next winter ... so that mean to me that he only worked the mine no more than 5-6 year totally in the winter months ... what year was the flood ?... that would tell us he had been liveing off the small catch no more than 5-7 years at the time of his death ....IMHO
Again, we are working with a version from Holmes, which is in variance with known facts on a number of points - your questions only seem to point up the un-reliability of his account. Based on OTHER reports (excluding Holmes, for the reasons cited earlier) it seems that Waltz never worked too hard at the mine, just went in and got another 'load' and when that ran out he would go back for more. Similar in that respect to the famous Lost Ben Sublett mine, remember Sublett would make a trip to his mine, return with a load of gold and when that ran out would go back for more. Waltz seemed to have followed that pattern as well, though his remaining 'cache' of ore (that taken from beneath his death-bed) was nearly gone when he died. It seems that Waltz did not have the 'greed' we are supposed to attribute to him. According to another source, Waltz made his last trip to the mine a year or a few years at most, after the small dairy farm was built - so he would have been living off the last 'proceeds' only a couple of years by the time he passed away. The flood which resulted in Waltz getting sick (remember he was rescued by his friend Reiney Petrasch) happened in February of 1891.
they may explan why some years he showed up on the cenus and other years he did not ...?
Again we know that Waltz lived in the Bradshaws for some years prior to moving to the Phoenix area, and local residents of both Phoenix and Florence (which he seemed to have made his 'base' for several years while just prospecting) said that Waltz had started a homestead claim on the north bank of the Salt river, but the 'gold-fever' soon returned and he made frequent prospecting trips into the Superstitions.
Blindbowman you made some statements about your photos, that seemed to imply there was something alarming in them - would you care to enlighten me (and the readers)? Or if not, we will be left guessing.
I doubt that I can convince you NOT to rely on the Holmes version of events, however as you have started to find some of the errors and idiosycracies in his (Holmes) account, perhaps you will decide to examine the other versions of events? Yes the other accounts are not nearly as exciting or bloodthirsty, but many points can be proven in this 'other' version; it might change the entire direction of your search.
Oroblanco
PS - Did some looking up, as to the known whereabouts of Jacob Waltz and got this much:
Jacob Waltz is listed in the Territorial Census 1864, 3rd district (Yavapai county) age 54 (he would have been 56 actually) occupation miner, born in Prussia (Germany), resident in Arizona two years. He is also listed in US Census 1880, residing in Phoenix, age 70, occupation farmer born in Prussia (Germany) and is listed in the Great Register for Maricopa county in 1876, 1882 and 1886 as a resident of Phoenix, and that he was naturalized as a citizen on July 19, 1861 in Los Angeles in the First District court.
Senator Hayden has the death of his partner Jacob Weiser as taking place "about 1881" at the ranch of John D. Walker near Florence. Pioneer interviews have an earlier date, as in early 1870s.
I don't think it is going to be possible to "pin down" the exact dates of the movements of Waltz, records were just not kept on that level.
Hey sour grapes make good wine! 
I have seen more than one treasure hunter QUIT after wasting time and effort on similar fraudulent "clues" and would rather not lose any brother treasure hunters to such crap. There ARE very real and fantastically rich lost treasures and lost mines out there, just waiting for someone to find them, and there are FRAUDS made up by jerks to fool treasure hunters and attract attention. If you believe the Peralta Stones are genuine, by all means go right ahead and try to "work out the secrets" and use them as "maps" to find treasures and lost mines, I will sure NOT try to stop you - but don't be real surprised when you fail to find anything by using them. 
