Treasure Trove Permits

[Blazer]

Oroblanco,

Ok, Let's look a little closer at what Tom K. actually said. In the first place HE didn't see Storm alter any writings himself either, and is going on second hand information he got from someone else.

Prior to Barry Storm's writings about the Superstitions very few people were aware of the existence of these stone markings on Black Top Mountain.


He states that "VERY FEW" people knew about the rock writings prior to Storm's publication of them. I take that to mean that "SOME" people DID know about them. So THEY DO PREDATE STORM!

William A. Barkley, who predated Storm in the area claimed Storm altered the markings on Black Top.


Even Barkley admitted that they predated Storm. Now we have to consider the possibility of Barkley's motivation for discrediting Storm. It is well known that there was no love lost between Barkley and Storm. Barkley didn't like the competition Storm presented as a Treasure Hunter, and was even more upset with him for publishing information that brought other treasure hunters into the mountains that offered even more competition. The more people there were in the mountains, the bigger the chance that someone besides Barkley himself would find the mine/treasure that Barkley was searching for, and the more his cattle were scattered all over creation, making roundups more difficult for him. It was in Barkley's own best interest to discredit Storm in any way he could. Tom K. is simply reporting history as it was told to him. I have no doubt that he is telling it just as he heard it it. Tom's credibility is not at issue, but Barkley's IS.


Blazer I have to ask you this - would you encourage fellow treasure hunters to follow up on a fraudulent clue? Would you want ME to do that? I cannot in good conscience encourage anyone to follow up on a fraud; not if they are in hopes of finding treasures or lost mines. I DO try to encourage fellow treasure hunters, but encourage them in pursuing genuine evidence and clues, NOT to follow up a dead end, false clue or set of false clues like these Peralta stones. color]

I agree with you 100% on this ORO. But I have not observed anyone encouraging anyone else to pursue anything. I certainly haven't. My objection is in the way you form your conclusions and attempt to sway others to your way of thinking. You have no evidence to support your belief that the stones are fakes, so you go to extremes to fabricate it, and try to pass off your opinions as facts. All the way back to Storm's earliest writings, he included treasure signs and symbols. You ever compare his signs and symbols to the ones on the stone maps? THEY DO NOT MATCH! None of them! Don't you think that if Storm had anything to do with the creation of the stone maps, he would have at least seen to it that SOME of his signs and symbols would have been used on them?


If you believe the Peralta Stones are genuine, by all means go right ahead and try to "work out the secrets" and use them as "maps" to find treasures and lost mines, I will sure NOT try to stop you - but don't be real surprised when you fail to find anything by using them.
Oroblanco

There are over 100 so called treasure maps to something that is supposed to be in the Superstition Mountains. To date, NONE of them have been known to lead anyone to any fortune. Many of them are just poor reproductions of an original or modified versions of it. At least the stone maps remain unchanged over the years, and nobody has to worry about whether or not they have an accurate copy of them to work with. That alone makes them the best maps to work with in my opinion.

The best anyone can do in debating the validity of the stones is to use his own judgement to evaluate the validity of the arguments for or against them. I find your arguments against them to be based on personal opinions, supported by nothing more than biased conclusions that were formed on other peoples personal opinions.

Of course, those are just my opinions and don't carry any more weight than yours do. The difference is... I know that, and you haven't figured it out yet.

There is no evidence that Storm (or any other 20th century treasure hunter), had anything to do with the creation of the stone maps, but recorded history and basic logic indicate that he did not. As I mentioned earlier, if he had... It is safe to assume that "HIS" own published treasure signs and symbols would be all over them, AND THEIR NOT!


I will include a copy of Storm's Treasure Signs below and let you see how many of them you can find on the stone maps.

I will admit... I find it curious that both of the symbols (The sunburst and the word ORO) found on Blacktop ARE found in Storm's list of signs and symbols, but that has no bearing on the validity of the stone maps.

Blazer

 

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[TreasureTales]

So you are one of the people actively seeking the LDM? If so, I wish you luck and good health.

Why yes, yes I am I believe that if you seek, you shall find. It's been proven to me over and over again, so now I seek Dutchie's mine. If I never find it, at least I got some incredible hiking experience and I learned more about the history of this area than I ever would have. Researching this thing I've managed to learn all about the settling of not only Phoenix, but other neighboring towns as well, like Wickenburg. I also learned a lot about the names for places, why they are and such, and why things are where they are. Did you know Dutchie used to work in the mine that is cause for the creation of Wickenburg? The money from this mine also is responsible for the early settlement of Phoenix. This is the Vulture mine of course, named after it's finder was being followed by circling vultures. Dutchie was also part of the expedition of explorers and prospectors who originally came to this area. This kinda stuff is amazing to me. There is so much more.

This is fascinating info. Thanks for providing it. As I said, I know nothing about the LDM, but I like to hear the tales. My brother lives in Wickenburg. I keep trying to wangle an invitation from him, but he doesn't get the hint or doesn't want to get the hint. So you are doing this search alone or are you part of a search party?

 

[TreasureTales]

I used to hike alone mostly, but haven't done that in a while. It's kinda nice having someone with you, you know. It can get dangerous back there, especially off trails

Yes, it's nice to have a companion, especially when in the backcountry. Sometimes I go treasure hunting with friends, sometimes alone, but I almost always prefer having a buddy along who has similar interests, abilities and resources. Then the trip is usually twice as fun and productive. Good luck in your search. (Now I'll have to learn the history of Wickenburg so I can create additional incentives for an invitation from my brother. )

 

[Blazer]

Mrs. Oro,

It is apparent to me, and I am sure a few others here, that your information on the Stones, etc., are sorely lacking in evidence that others here, DO have.

It is highly unlikely that that you or anyone else has any information that is not already in my files.
It is more probable that what you have in your evidence file, I have filed under fiction in my library.

You have no way of knowing, if you do not know the evidence that a conclusion is based on, how anyone forms their conclusions.

If your so-called evidence is not presented with your conclusions, then it cannot be evaluated for it's validity. If it cannot be evaluated for it's validity, it cannot be accepted as evidence.

Barry Storm was no Saint, didn't tell everything he knew, was even caught bending things a little now and then to conceal certain things that he was still working on. But, unlike many authors, he was actively seeking the "mine" at the time he was publishing books. He had permanant camps in the mountains where he lived the legend night and day. Few people if ANY have ever sacrificed as much as he did in pursuit of the Gold of the Superstitions! He left his mark high on the wall through hard work and dedication. So high that no more than one or two names will ever appear that high with his. No amount of criticism or accusations, be they true or false, will ever change that.

There are to names in American history that someone will always stand up and fight for when they are attacked. On a national level the name is John Wayne. On a local level the name is John T. Clemenson.

The stone maps may be real, they may be fakes, we may never know which. But, to pin their existence on Barry Storm in any way shape or form, is going to take a LOT of evidence, spread out on the open table for everyone to see and evaluate. I suspect that you already know that your evidence would not hold up against that kind of examination or you would have already presented it.

BTW... Why did Mr. Oro send you to do his responding instead of responding himself?

I have never seen him lost for words before. Was the corner getting a little too tight for him to wiggle in?

Blazer

 

[DEMON]

even up here john wayne is a saint not a bs agent

 

[the blindbowman]

LOL . you may be miss lead somewhat . in fact i am not looking for the LDM .. i am looking for what i saw in 1979 . is that the LDM it fits the discription . but as i stated i am not looking for the LDM.. only by way of they clues and evidence have i had to stop and look at the LDm's evidence and clues .. i found many clues and facts that say what i saw could have been the LDM . and all of what i have found is not from dick holmes 's acount or the DM legend it self . it is only my need to define what i saw in 1979 . finding the LDM or the tayopa or any other mine is not why i am there at times . i like the treasure hunting and all that . but as you already know i am hunting 4-5 miles from everyone else ..LOL ether i am totally lost or what i saw is not the LDM or it is and everyone else is looking 4-5 miles from where it is at . but as i stated i am not looking for the LDM ...

i have to respect the clues of the LDM and the maps and stones only for the reason they do locate what i saw ....beyond that who knows what i saw .. i dont even know what i saw yet . only what it looked like to me ...


as far as writers and drawings . they are not evidence IMHO .. as well as the dick holmes story but i have too look at the dick holmes story in another light than all of you because the locate i saw dose match parts of the acount ... why who knows why ?

i am planing my 3rd trip and it is costing me $15,000. so far but the evidence is being collected is real and i beleave i will find and define what i saw in 1979 ...


LDM or not !

who cares what some unknown person wrote on the rocks back who knows when .

thats just not evidence to me ...

i think what i am looking for has nothing to do with book sales lol i hope it never dose ...

as far as the Don's club .as long as they dont confront me they can be what ever they want to be ...

i went to the superstitions twice and had no need for a gun . know i think thats has changed ...

not because of who i am because of who watched what i was doing ....

if anyone thinks they can go in the mt's and find these sites with out anyone watching there are fools ....IMHO

my point i saw a young man walk by on the trai out .. i went to check out a large rock about 150 ft away . as i set there watching the young man clear the top of a mt i saw another man hikeing behind him just out of sight .. yet when the young man stoped so did the other man ..

why . i dont want to know ! the young man passed us with no intrest in what we were doing or where we were .. yet the other man never saw me .and i watched him walk past about a 100 ft away from where i was seting at the time ....i took his picture and he never saw me even move ...

my point is this area is very very vast and unless you have a reason or some thing to guide you dont go out there . was the other man lost and did not want to scare the young man by walking up to him out in the med of no where or was he watching where the young man had gone ...?

i told my brother at one time i had senced two apache in the rocks above where we were . we ask me how do you know they are apache . i lol and said i know ....they were speaking to each other in wilderness sounds the hole time . i know i speak the same way ... just not the same sounds as they did ...

they could be reading this and say nothing they could read this and no i knew they were there ...

my point is who is watching who ?

those drawings have not moved and yet they mean nothing to the rocks they are on . only give meaning to others willing to read them . what you translate them to mean is not allways what the one that wrote them was saying ....and who knows if any one changed them or there meaning from than to now ?

i have a lot to do . you guys take care ...

 

[Keifer]

Hey Blazer,

Don't take it all out on Oroblanco. It may be that he is just a pawn in the big picture of what is going on. This whole idea of Storm creating the stone maps was started by a guy that goes by the username of Joe Ribaudo on another website. He bases it all on his opinion that the Witch on one of the maps looks like Chuck Aylor, and misc other such nonsense. He goes on to imply that Aylor, De Grazia and Storm all conspired to create the stone maps. There is no real evidence behind any of it. It is all a figment of this Ribaudo Character's very creative imagination. He views himself as some kind of expert on every topic (you know the type), but if you follow his posts, it is easy to see that his only goal is to smear the names of well known people in an attempt to make room on the wall of LDM history for his own. He has even suggested that Tom Kollenborn might have been involved with Storm and the others in the act of creating the stone maps. There is not a single big name in the LDM legend (Dead or Alive) that he has not attempted to bring down in one way or another. Storm, Kollenborn, Corbin, Hatt, Feldman, Aylor, De Grazia... He has gone after them all! If you speak to any of the living big names that he has attacked, you will find that they don't feel very threatened by him. I don't think Storm would either.

There are always people like Oroblanco and his Mrs. that will accept any information that fits in with what they want to believe, as factual information, no matter how ridiculous it is.

Keifer

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Blazer, what in the world are you talking about?? I personally have stated that I do not believe in them either, since their very existence belies logic. You must admit that it is a big stretch of logic for anyone to make a map on separate stones when a hide or paper map is more convenient or concealable if necessary..

In all of my years of treasure hunting and research I haven't encountered a single other case. I can understand on large rock or cliff, but on a series of heavy stones which would require a couple of burros to just move them ?

I also question the causality of all being buried at the same spot, this negates an attempt to hide something lIke a mine or whatever.

As for Oro and HIS spouse BETH, (smooch- shaddup ORO ) they do excellent and thorough research.and are both highly intelligent, especially BETH, who keeps him in line.

I personally elect Reeves as the candidate, he had possibly the most to gain IF they had been found in time.

Tropical Tramp

 

[Blazer]

Tropical Tramp



I am not sure if I believe in those maps or not my friend. I have good friends on both sides of that fence, and they are all passionate about their opinions. I usually try to avoid the subject whenever possible, because one day I will lean towards one side of the fence and the next day the other. If I make too many posts about my opinions I could end up arguing with myself about them! I would like nothing more than to get off this fence and make my stand on one side of it or the other. Some of the evidence in support of them is hard to overlook, but most of the evidence that calls them fakes is just as ridiculous as the "Storm created them" theory.


My post started out in response to the insane idea that Barry Storm was involved in making the stone maps, and I just drifted off into the rest of it
The paper and hide argument you bring up is good one that is also hard to overlook. Still, the stones DO exist and it took a lot of work to make them. They were never used in a known fraud, and as Gollum pointed out, the man that originally found them, believed in them 100%, and kept them hush-hush right up until his death. Facts are nice to have to work with when available, but when they aren't, you have to make observations of people's actions and make some logical deductions concerning those actions.

I am still waiting for Oro, or the Mrs. Which ever one he cares to log on as, to explain why none of Storm's Signs and Symbols appear on the stone maps. The answer must be all entangled in his “Secret” information that he cannot discuss in an open forum.


In all of my years of treasure hunting and research I haven't encountered a single other case. I can understand on large rock or cliff, but on a series of heavy stones which would require a couple of burros to just move them ?

I would rather have MY secret maps carved on something that I could carry away than on a large rock or cliff. A burro can carry a lot more than you might think. The whole set weighs less than 80 pounds. A Mule wouldn't even know they were there!

I also question the causality of all being buried at the same spot, this negates an attempt to hide something lIke a mine or whatever.

Have to disagree with you again. I don't believe they were buried at all. I agree with the theory that they were lost there and sank into the ground during the monsoon rains. If they had been buried, The Latin heart and Stone Crosses should have been buried with them. The Latin heart was found (laying right on top of the ground) along the trail, in the same area, but not in the same spot as the other stones. The Stone crosses were found farther away along the same trail only partially buried. The symbols on the crosses and the Latin words on the heart are all the same as symbols used on the other stones. They were all found along the old Spanish trail (actually called that on some old maps) that runs from the Salt River through the Superstitions, to Florence Jct. to Florence, to Tucson and on into Mexico.

I personally elect Reeves as the candidate, he had possibly the most to gain a lot to gain IF they had been found in time.

Reavis!!! (The Baron of Arizona) Now there is the real kicker! I can't think of anyone that would have had more motive for making the maps than him. The problem with that thought is... Why didn't he send someone out to "accidentally" find them so they could have been entered into evidence? If he had put out all the effort to make them, why didn't he use them?

Tomorrow, I may be leaning towards the other side of the fence, but I will never give any consideration to the Idea that Storm was involved in making them.

Happy New year!

Blazer

 

[Oroblanco]

Re: Treasure Trove Permits (LONG reply)

Greetings Blazer and everyone,

Whew! This reply is going to be a long one. I beg your indulgence, will try to answer all the points raised.

Blazer wrote:
You have no evidence to support your belief that the stones are fakes, so you go to extremes to fabricate it, and try to pass off your opinions as facts.

Proof that the Peralta stones are frauds? What exactly constitutes proof of fraud, in your view? We have the statements of Father Polzer as well as from three experts from Desert Archaeology Inc who all stated their opinion the stones are frauds; compared with a statement that the FBI "Believed" the stones were "at least 100 years old" however a bit of digging turns up the fact that the tests done in the 1960s were inconclusive - they could neither prove the stones to be recent manufacture (in which case they would have been seized as evidence of fraud on the part of MOEL Inc in that prosecution) nor over 100 years old, in which case the State could have seized them under the Antiquities Act. I don't take the statements of four experts lightly, when they are in agreement. Fabricating things? A quite unfair accusation Blazer - please post EXACTLY those "fabrications" which you have accused me of posting?

If you found an old coin and took it to an expert on old coins, who told you it was a genuine, very rare old coin - you would not have reason to question it right? However when we get to these Peralta stones, it seems that when any expert does not agree that they must be genuine then we either ignore their views or attack them as biased for one reason or another. Do you just dismiss the statements of Father Polzer and Desert Archaeology Inc?

Treasure maps are very seductive, alluring things that appeal to a treasure hunter on the deepest levels; however they are also so often flawed, erroneous or outright frauds that any serious treasure hunter MUST view all treasure maps with a rather skeptical, almost jaundiced eye. When we come to the case of these Peralta stones, we have the stated opinions of four experts that they are frauds. Judging for yourself is wise too - compare the writing style of the Peralta stones to known, genuine Mexican and Spanish inscriptions - if it looks WRONG then it very likely IS wrong.

I will admit... I find it curious that both of the symbols (The sunburst and the word ORO) found on Blacktop ARE found in Storm's list of signs and symbols, but that has no bearing on the validity of the stone maps.

The fact that Barry Storm did have treasure symbols in his BOOK that match those on the MAPS is certainly not enough to remove him from all suspicion - he was surely smart enough not to use obvious marks which would prove his hand in the work, yet there it is - sunburst and ORO. You seem to have missed the dagger/knife and the CROSS as well. Note that he also mentioned "any horse or dog" and those pesky Peralta maps sure do have a horse don't they?

Those who first had possession of the stone maps used them in searching, and found markings in the Superstitions which matched those on the stone maps - which certainly suggests the same hands having made them. It is not possible to PROVE that Storm or anyone else created the Peralta stones, but there IS reason to be suspicious. Barkley may have been biased, indeed, but remember Barkley was NOT the only witness to Storm's handiwork. The petroglyphs DID indeed pre-date Storm, but in fact we cannot today know what exactly they were! Perhaps Storm was only cleaning the dirt or moss from the inscriptions? However in at least one case, (the ORO next to the sunburst) we know that the ORO was not there prior to the time that Storm was in the Superstitions, and it WAS there after because photographs exist to prove it. It is logical that the petroglyphs, prior to the altering and adding on, were very likely entirely the work of native peoples.

Suppose the Peralta stones are genuine and I am totally wrong in concluding they are frauds. Tumlinson and Clarence Mitchell surely thought they were real. They used them for years, five years for Tumlinson (who quit his job as a policeman to search) and at least four years for Mitchell, so...what treasures or lost mines did they find by using them? Exactly, ZERO. So in an important way, it is irrelevant whether the stones are genuine or fraudulent, because those who have tried using them have found them to be of virtually no value or assistance in locating treasures and lost mines. The State of Arizona views them as "curiosities" which is perhaps the best term for them.

There are to names in American history that someone will always stand up and fight for when they are attacked. On a national level the name is John Wayne. On a local level the name is John T. Clemenson.
Hanh? Barry Storm is on the same level, to you, as John Wayne?

BTW... Why did Mr. Oro send you to do his responding instead of responding himself?

I have never seen him lost for words before. Was the corner getting a little too tight for him to wiggle in?

Again, Hanh I have never "sent" Mrs Oro to do any responding FOR me. For your information and edification, I do NOT get on T-net every, single night, or for that matter get on the Internet every single night! Yeesh! What did you think I was sitting at the computer, waiting to read your post? What corner? Are you serious

Greetings Keifer,
Keifer wrote:It may be that he is just a pawn in the big picture of what is going on. This whole idea of Storm creating the stone maps was started by a guy that goes by the username of Joe Ribaudo on another website.

HUH? A pawn? Under whose control? I also have heard of Joe Ribaudo but had not heard his conclusion that Storm and others had created the stone maps - I don't see Aylor or DeGrazia (an artist who lived or lives in AJ, you can find some of his work online but nothing like those stone maps) being connected. I view Storm as the strongest suspect in creating those Peralta stones, but cannot prove it beyond a shadow of a doubt, and came to that view entirely on my own.

There are always people like Oroblanco and his Mrs. that will accept any information that fits in with what they want to believe, as factual information, no matter how ridiculous it is.
Geez Keifer, I could say that very same thing about folks like you! You want to believe those Peralta stones are genuine maps to lost treasures/lost mines, and that Barry Storm recorded real historical events absolutely accurately, so any kind of evidence that doesn't agree with that idea you dismiss, and apparently anyone who doesn't believe in Storm and those pesky Peralta stones too. Good luck and good hunting to you, hope you find the treasure that you seek.

Blazer wrote: I am still waiting for Oro, or the Mrs. Which ever one he cares to log on as, to explain why none of Storm's Signs and Symbols appear on the stone maps.

Well Blazer, I thought we could keep this civil, but apparently not. I don't pretend to be anyone else, don't have any secret identities, my real name and email and address are all public information. If you expect that I or any member is going to post in public every bit of information they hold, you will be waiting a very long time. Just for your information, as I mentioned, I don't get on T-net every single day or night, or the internet - so you might want to wait for a reply before ASSUMING things in the future. You yourself have noticed TWO treasure signs from Storm's book that MATCH those on the stones, and missed several others (dagger, cross, horse) so you go ahead and explain it to me WHY we find that there ARE matches in Storm's book AND on those Peralta stones please? I and others here have tried to present the reasons for holding those Peralta stones in high suspicion, and we have had FOUR experts state their opinions they were FRAUDS. If you wish to believe they are genuine, that is your prerogative.

Tomorrow, I may be leaning towards the other side of the fence, but I will never give any consideration to the Idea that Storm was involved in making them.
Then you are expressing a personal bias which blinds you to one possible suspect. This tendency to have a personal bias and not be willing to examine every source or witness will at the least result in your spending un-necessary time or the possibility of your being fooled - of course that is your choice.

I have not intentionally belittled anyone nor their attempts to solve the riddles; I have been appealing to the logic of our fellow treasure hunters. If anything I have posted has been of any offense, a thousand apologies - no offense was intended. To anyone who wishes to view the Peralta stones as genuine maps to treasures, lost mines etc as well as those who believe the Holmes manuscript version of events is truth, I say good luck and good hunting to you, hope you find the treasure that you seek.

And a very happy New Year to you all!

Oroblanco

 

[DEMON]

apahe witches all them self believers its nohing but a ploy to sell books tales and bs, they all all are reincarnated unbelivers who thinh this sht is for real, happy hunting

 

[Blazer]

Good Morning Oroblanco,

Firs off, my sincere apologies for the comment suggesting that you may not be who you are representing yourself to be. I fully accept your clarification on that matter and stand corrected. Please extend my apologies to the Mrs. As well.

Now on to the business of responding to your most recent reply. Due to the number of issues it has grown into, and the depth of each one of them, I will keep this post on the subject of expert witnesses. Both Father Polzer’s and the University Prof’s opinions you speak of have been disputed many times elsewhere on the Internet in other forums. The most quoted arguments against them come from 3 different articles on desertusa.com in which BOTH the pro’s and con’s of the stone maps have been discussed at great depth and the weaknesses and biases of the “expert witness” testimonies have been exposed.

I will save you some time going through the lengthy forums and cut and past the relevant info below. When we have reached an agreement on the strength or weakness of the expert witness testimonies you quote, we can move on the next point.


Blazer

On the subject of Fr. Polzer’s creditability… copied from: http://www.desertusa.com/mag02/sep/per_stone.html
Knowing very little about Father Polzer myself, I decided to do a little Internet research and see if I could find his comments on the Stone Maps on the Internet. My repeated attempts produced no results relating to the Maps, However. . . There is a lot of information pertaining to Father Polzer himself on the Internet. Contrary to Mr. Bott's beliefs, it appears that Father Polzer's opinion and credibility are often disputed, especially in cases where his conclusions might be a little self serving.

The following comments came from a court case that Polzer was involved in the Mt Graham vs The Apache Nation case:

Finally, as a parting shot Polzer says:

"Her remarks about the government's failure to approach the Apaches are contrary to fact. The reality is that no Apache bothered to take up this cause until non-Indians coaxed certain long-term, political dissidents to block construction of the telescope".

As shown earlier, this is a blatant lie. The Apache received no such letter and the EIS had a letter stating the Apache position on Mt. Graham. What makes Polzer's statements so incredulous is that fact that he was the curator of Ethnohistory and the Documentary Relations of the Southwest Project at the Arizona State Museum at the University of Arizona, which contains among other items, the Grenville Goodwin papers.

Apache ceremonies do not leave traces or shrines, except perhaps a small fire area and scattered pollen. Even over centuries, there is no built evidence to prove possession. The Ninth Circuit Court echoed Father Coyne. The Apache had failed to show that the sacred locale first named by the Apache also included a second locale claimed by the astronomers. The second site was not proven to be sacred, in part, because it was 1,300 feet from the first. How could both be sacred? The more extravagant Father Polzer simply presented false information in courts: "Rarely did the Apaches use these heights, and the Œsacredness is about as specific as references to the sky.

Now. . . Let's assume for just one minute that Father Polzer had immediately upon examination determined in his own mind that the Stone Maps were authentic and did in fact (If deciphered correctly) lead to some hidden Jesuit Treasure. Does anyone believe that it would have been in his own best interest to say so?

I think NOT!


On the subject of the Arizona Highways Expert witness comments… From: http://www.desertusa.com/ldm-1/peralta.html
The most recent “Expert” opinions of the stone maps were published in Jan. 2005 in Arizona Highways. If you read the conclusions of the experts closely you will find that there were no scientific methods used to form the conclusions presented in that article. It is my opinion that the evaluations were shallow and subjective, and their conclusions were based on personal opinions that were not well thought out. In the article Dr. Jenny Adams says: “There is no evidence these stones were ever buried. The stone material is very soft, and there would be a lot of random abrasions. If they sat out in the open, there would be lichen, weathering of the symbols and discoloring of the stone material. Just look at old head stones in a cemetery”. She does not think the stones were ever buried because there are no abrasions. I don’t understand how she came to the conclusion that the stones would have gotten abrasions while laying still underground. Ignoring that, during my own inspection of the original stones, I observed a lot of abrasions on the faces of the stones, visible with the naked eye and similar to what one would expect to see if they had been placed face to face and packed on an animal. But then she says that they could not have set out in the open either because there was no lichen growth or weathering of the symbols. Lichen - Apparently nobody told her that Tumlinson (The original finder, and probably several other people) had cleaned the stones many times looking for any tiny bits of information that he might not have seen before. Will lichen hold up against vigorous scrubbing with a brush, water, soap, and possibly even various unknown chemical cleaners? Weathering – How can you tell if an item has changed from its original condition from weathering if you never saw it in its original condition? What is she comparing it with that has undergone the same unknown treatment for the same length of time? The most weathered stone is a portion of the Priest stone, which is the one that Tumlinson said was partially exposed when he found them. Discoloration – The Priest stone has a generous amount of discoloration all over the face of it, but again, ignoring that, how can you tell if an item has been altered by discoloration if you do not know what it looked like in its original condition? The stones could have been buried or laying out in the open for millions of years before they were inscribed. Headstones – A headstone that has sat in one place undisturbed since it was placed there, cannot be used as an example to compare with something like the stone maps that have been brushed, washed, cleaned by other unknown methods and moved all over the country in the back of a vehicle, not to mention being cared for in a controlled environment for the last 40 - 50 years. She goes on to state that she believes the surfaces were mechanically sanded but offers no explanation of how she came to this conclusion. Didn’t the Egyptians, the Mayans and the Aztecs make smooth surfaces for their inscriptions without using machines to sand them? I have seen many Indian grinding stones with a much flatter and smoother surface than the surface of the Peralta stones. Am I to believe that she would also conclude that these were mechanically sanded? She also claims to have seen dimples made by drill bits at the start of some of the engravings. Why couldn’t any pointed object make a dimple if there were any? Who ever made them had to use tools of some kind. Ignoring that, why have none of the other experts that have examined the stones over the last 50 years ever observed these dimples she claims to have seen? Even an amateur can see the flaws in this non-scientific evaluation! In the same article, Dr. Elizabeth Miksa says: “The Peralta stones originated far from where they were supposedly found”. Even if this were true, so what? To my knowledge, nobody has ever claimed that they were made where they were found. Why would they have to made where they were found to be authentic? Even if she could prove that the only source for the type of stone they are made from was 400 miles away from where they were found. What would that prove? Additionally… Tom Kollenborn, although he does not have a PhD, does have some formal education in Geology and probably knows more about the rock formations that can be found in the Superstitions than anyone else I could name, has stated for years that all three types of rock that the stones are made of can be found within the boundaries of the Superstition Wilderness Area. He can even tell you where you can find them. Dr. Miksa also questions the spelling and grammar on the Peralta stones. Assuming for a moment that they are from the 1847 time period as Dr. Miksa seems to believe, it would be extremely rare to find any kind of Mexican document from that time period that does not have spelling and grammar errors in it. Dropping that assumption and moving on. Many stone map aficionados that have dedicated a year or more, for every one minute that Dr. Miksa has in the study of the stone maps and their possible origin believe that they originated in the mid 1700’s regardless of what appears to be a date of 1847 on two of them. I wonder how the grammar and spelling would compare with documents from that time period? Again, these “Experts” are just providing personal opinions with no scientific basis and very limited if any, consideration of the known history of the stones. In my opinion these “evaluations” are just knee-jerk reactions dressed up with some fancy words to create the illusion of credibility. Some people with big degrees will try to wiggle anything into an explanation to keep from saying the words “I don’t know”. I am a little disappointed with the author of the article and publisher of Arizona Highways for not researching the matter further and presenting a more balanced report that included reactions to the “Expert” opinions provided and some opposing views from the other side of the fence.

Additional information about Dating the stone maps is located at: http://www.desertusa.com/mag06/oct/peralta.html


Blazer

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

HIO Blazer: I cannot personally vouch for Father Polzer since our contact was via Em, and we did disagree in a very friendly manner on Tayopa. But his personal character is upheld by the Community for his personal morals and good works which continue today. He has been honored by the King of Spain for his work. In fact your's is the first to question him.

I have various times posted/explained my position on the validity of the stones, especially the Reeves scenario or shall we say, booboo.

Whether it took 1 or 10 burros is a moot point, since it did involve a heavy cargo for a scarce animal, which in those days did not make sense. They were reserved for more important things such as food & water, precious metals etc. Under these conditions a more portable map, such as was done in almost every other incidence,
is infinitely more believable.

As for their being found all at once or separately, even there, there is controversy still raging. What distinguishing marks are there in the area where they were supposedly found that would serve as a positive marker/guide for someone being sent say from Mexico city to locate and dig them up?

And not the least, why so many different stones when all of the data could easily be engraved on one ?

I don't buy secrecy, otherwise they would have had been scattered in widely different areas.

Final point, literally hundreds have worked on deciphering these stones with no known success??

Why are you so hot on Oro and Beth? They are only a couple of the many that do not believe that they are maps of any validity.

p.s. The Jesuits are out since this is not a characteristic of their modus operendi.

Tropical Tramp

 

[Blazer]

HIO Blazer: I cannot personally vouch for Father Polzer since our contact was via Em, and we did disagree in a very friendly manner on Tayopa. But his personal character is upheld by the Community for his personal morals and good works which continue today. He has been honored by the King of Spain for his work. In fact your's is the first to question him.

I wasn’t personally questioning him. I just passed on information from the articles on DesertUSA that originally came from court transcripts. The transcripts are available on the internet. At least they were a few years back when I first read that article. I just did a Polzer Google and then searched within the results for Mt Graham. They came right up. People sat there under oath and called him a liar and a cheat! I didn't make the news, I just reported it!

I have various times posted/explained my position on the validity of the stones, especially the Reeves scenario or shall we say, booboo.

Who is Reeves? I have never heard of him. What booboo are you talking about?

Whether it took 1 or 10 burros is a moot point, since it did involve a heavy cargo for a scarce animal, which in those days did not make sense. They were reserved for more important things such as food & water, precious metals etc. Under these conditions a more portable map, such as was done in almost every other incidence, is infinitely more believable.

Whatever...?


As for their being found all at once or separately, even there, there is controversy still raging. What distinguishing marks are there in the area where they were supposedly found that would serve as a positive marker/guide for someone being sent say from Mexico city to locate and dig them up?

You forget, I don’t think they were ever buried, intentionally by man anyway.
I stated that I believed the theory that they were lost and sank into the ground over time and many monsoon rains. You will have to ask someone that believes they were buried for later retrieval. It is a GOOD question tho, and I like it. There are no distinguishing marks anywhere in the area, other than Queen Creek that runs for miles. All the more reason to believe that they were lost there not buried there, right? I did already mention that the Old Spanish Trail through the mountains runs right through the area tho didn’t I?

And not the least, why so many different stones when all of the data could easily be engraved on one ?

I can only guess. They are a puzzle that has to be arranged in the right order and read in the proper sequence in order to be useful to anyone.

I don't buy secrecy, otherwise they would have had been scattered in widely different areas.

I don’t think the owners of them ever intended to leave them behind or let them out of their direct control.


Final point, literally hundreds have worked on deciphering these stones with no known success??

You are making a statement… With question marks at the end I disagree with the statement, can’t answer the question.

Why are you so hot on Oro and Beth? They are only a couple of the many that do not believe that they are maps of any validity.

I’m not hot on Oro and Beth. They seem like real nice people. I’m just hot on some of their crazy ideas, and their willingness to accept the things they are told without even using their own logic to sniff it and see if it smells funny. The comments in Arizona Highways by the “Experts” is exactly the kind of “Expert Testimony” that allowed OJ to walk. (The Jury didn’t buy it) It is too easily blown away by just thinking about it a little. If they buy those evaluations, what other nonsense are they also buying into? Maybe something like Barry Storm created the stone maps? Huh? Huh? They have no case there at all. They are grabbing at straws and bending them to fit. There is enough expert witness B.S. already floating around about the stone maps without adding a bunch of amateur B.S. to it. There are a bunch of people like me out there that would like to be able to make up our minds about whether they are genuine or not. I still don’t have a final opinion about that. I have talked to many people that have been looking for the same answer since the day the life Magazine article came out in 1964. If Oro has some damn evidence that Storm made the maps or had any part in making them, he show it or drop it! He is just adding to the B.S. that is already out there. If he had evidence that they were genuine and how to use them, then that is worthy of keeping it quiet! In which case he wouldn’t be saying ANTTHING. But to claim to have evidence they are fakes and pretend it is “Secret” information is the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard!



p.s. The Jesuits are out since this is not a characteristic of their modus operendi.

Tropical Tramp

Mi Amigo, There are a lot of people out there that have forgotten more than I will ever know about the stone maps and would argue with you about that until the cows come home!. If you want some really straight and in depth answers you should seek them out. Richard Robinson, Chuck Kenworthy’s Son, (I forget his first name), Jim Hatt, Richard Peck, Greg Davis, Matthew Roberts, Clay Worst, just to name a few. These guys all have MUCHO years, both in the mountains and in the libraries researching the stone maps. They do not all agree with each other about their conclusions, but they are not amateurs, and none of them will blow any B.S. in your face. If they tell you something they believe about the maps, they will tell you why they believe it, and you can form your own conclusions from there.

Best,

Blazer

 

[Oroblanco]

Greetings Blazer and everyone,

Tropical Tramp pointed out the very odd idea of a bunch of stone maps, which if you think about it should be enough to raise a red flag. He also pointed out the poor logic of having a SET of them when all the information could have been easily put on ONE stone, which is a far less easy to hide and less portable map than leather, paper or wood. Your idea that Father Polzer was protecting some secret Jesuit interest in the Superstitions is unfounded - there is no evidence of Jesuit activities in the Superstitions. He had no "interest" in protecting some Jesuit treasure there because they had no treasure or mines there. It sure looks like you just don't want to hear anything that doesn't agree with the idea of the stones being genuine.

So I am insane and an amateur, in your opinion. Well Blazer you are sure welcome to your ideas. Want proof that Storm was involved? Lets see, we have the statements from Tom Kollenborn that several old timers who pre-dated Storm witnessed him altering Indian petroglyphs and specifically adding the "ORO"; there are photos of the sunburst stone which predate the time of Storm and there is no ORO, yet after Storm is there we have "ORO" along with his other alterations. You wanted me to study Storm's published chart of "Spanish" treasure hieroglyphics, and said there were NO matches, yet there are at least FIVE. For a person who has mixed fact and fiction in his books and movie, who was seen making fake inscriptions in stone in the Superstitions, I think we have a pretty strong suspect for the creator of those Peralta stones. They were found after Storm had been active in the area - now if they had been found some years prior to his arrival, we could rule out Barry but that is not the case. You also failed to answer several questions for me, perhaps an oversight on your part, so I will re-post them:

1: What exactly constitutes proof of fraud, in your view?

2:please post EXACTLY those "fabrications" which you have accused me of posting?

3: Do you just dismiss the statements of Father Polzer and Desert Archaeology Inc?


4: Blazer wrote: I am still waiting for Oro, or the Mrs. Which ever one he cares to log on as, to explain why none of Storm's Signs and Symbols appear on the stone maps. --- Explain it to me WHY we find that there ARE matches in Storm's book AND on those Peralta stones please?

The very first edition of Storm's book included some of his artwork, yet strangely none of his artwork was included in any other edition. So we have in Barry Storm, aka John T. Clymenson, a person who was a promoter of the legends of the Superstitions, who had the backing and financial support of a famous Arizona senator and prominent member of a club which also promotes the legends of the Southwest, a person who had no qualms about mixing fact and fiction to sell more books and movies, who had no qualms about making fake stone Spanish hieroglyphics in the Superstitions, gee yeah I must be insane to think that this same person might have made up fake stone maps too, that just happen to have some of the very same symbols he included in his chart of Spanish treasure symbols.

Blazer wrote: But to claim to have evidence they are fakes and pretend it is “Secret” information is the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard!
I have to add to this, where exactly is this claim that I have secret evidence to prove they are fakes? I have never made that claim; I do have more information on the Peralta stones than I am going to make public, but if you think it is evidence that proves them real that is pure speculation on your part. You may have missed some of the discussion on these stones, there is a great deal of it here in SEVERAL threads, many points raised both in favor and against the Peralta stones, if you cared to read it;
http://forum.treasurenet.com/index.php/topic,41448.0.html
http://forum.treasurenet.com/index.php/topic,48301.0.html
http://forum.treasurenet.com/index.php/topic,29161.0.html
http://forum.treasurenet.com/index.php/topic,47594.0.html

Yes if you think about it, when we look at these Peralta stones, something indeed smells. You don't want me posting my negative opinions about them, well you can sure post your rebuttals in support of their validity as it is a public forum. You have even said you, Blazer, don't believe they were ever buried - well doesn't that little flaw bother you, and make you question their validity even more? Why not go ahead and try using those stone 'maps' to search for some lost treasures or legendary mines? Surely that is the very best test of any treasure map. If something could be found to prove they were genuine, I will happily take back my words and be the first to congratulate you - but won't feel bad about not bothering with them.

Oroblanco

 

[Blazer]

B (Mrs Oro)

I just have to say, that, Mr. Oro and I, actually have different ideas on the "stones".

Don't feel alone. I know the feeling, but in my case the different ideas are internal. I have argued both sides of the fence with myself for hours on end. I can never win no matter which side I take.

Oro,

You have too many things crammed into one post. Me follow the stone maps to the treasure? If I understood them I would probably give it a try. I have a hard enough time trying to understand the explanations of people that claim to understand them. Polzer... I have no personal opinion, I only know what I have read about him on the internet. I do believe he tried to use his influence in a shady way in the Mt Graham affair. I am sure he did a lot of wonderfull things in his life, but the Mt Graham files show that he was not above dealing from the bottom of the deck to get what he wanted. I forget what your question was about the expert witnesses in the Arizona Highways article was, (and I also forgot to copy it to my clipboard before I opened the reply window) but I agree with Jim Hatt's assessment of their evaluations. Obviously Jim is a believer in the validity of the stone maps. As far as I know, he is the only well known believer to openly state that he believes there is a link between them and the LDM. I know he gets roughed up over that from time to time, but it never seems to bother him, because he never breaks his stride and keeps coming back for more. Speaking of Jim & Barry, did you know that he roughed up Barry Storm a little himself in his booklet about Jenkins Lost Lode? But he had facts in the form of a hand written letter to back him up. At least he was man enough to include a Forward written by Clay Worst, that defended Storm's actions even tho it took some of the thunder out of the point he was making. I already admitted that Storm was no Saint. But I still do not believe ALL the things that are said about him. Least of all things that came from Tex Barkley and the things you mentioned all came from him. Every treasure hunter gets roughed up now and then. It goes with the territory. It is an activity where the stakes are always HIGH. The winners always win big and the losers sometimes pay with their lives. With stakes like that, a little roughing up in the middle of the game should be expected and treated as just so much water under the bridge. Those that can't take it get out pretty fast.

If you (or I), get roughed up a little, Don't take it personal, look at it as confirmation that our ante is good and we are still in the game.

Blazer

 

[Oroblanco]

Greetings Blazer - thanks for your answers. Good luck and good hunting, hope you find the treasure that you seek.
Oroblanco

 

[Blazer]

Mr & Mrs "O"

The high stakes and the risk involved keep all but the deeply committed from staying in the game long enough to become Icons in the legend. We debate with passion amongst ourselves, but when it comes right down to it, nobody else cares what we mortals think! Unless you (or I) become an Icon, nobody is ever going to pay much attention to our opinions anyway. I found the URL for Richard Robinson's theory on the stone maps. It is at: http://www.lost-dutchman.com/dutchman/theGate/theGate1.htm
If you haven't read it, you might find it interesting. I have met Richard and discussed the maps with him in depth. His passion for their validity is unequaled as far as I am concerned. He has mapped the entire Old Spanish Trail from Casa Grande to an area deep within the Superstitions. Not from his armchair on a topo map, but in the field through a lot of hard work and sweat! You may not agree with all of his theories, but you might find the answers to some of the questions about the maps that you were asking me and I could not answer.


Mrs O, You are correct! The biggest problem with all the stories about lost mines and buried treasures, has always been the Liars. The second biggest problem is the people that repeat the lies, and repeat them, and repeat them.
If people would have refrained from repeating information that they did not have solid supporting evidence for, that they could present with it, there would not be so much misinformation on the record today. Some present day Icons have done a lot in the last few years, in the way of providing good historical information that has helped a lot of us see through some of yesterdays lies. I join them in my own small way, by calling for facts or sources whenever something "new" comes along that contradicts the historical record and/or could have a self-serving motive. I am sorry if my momentum for that goal was perceived as something else. It's a tough job, but somebody's got to do it, or the future generations that follow in our footsteps will think we were ALL liars.

Opinions are great! We all have them, few of us agree with each others, and some disagreements get overheated. But opinions are still important and sometimes are the fuel for thought, that causes the discovery of something like King Tut's Tomb, or the wreck of the Atocha. There would be far fewer overheated arguments if facts were kept on the facts page, and opinions were kept on the opinions page.

Blazer

 

[Blazer]

I hope to be through talking about the stone maps because they are not my favorite topic.

I joined this site to make my feelings known about Treasure Trove Permits and the Management of the Superstition Wilderness Area. I don't even remember how I got started on the stone maps.

The last I remember Mr Wood was agreeing that the U.S. Congress had mandated things for creation and maintenance of a Wilderness Area, that the Forest Service was not able to comply with, because the have chosen to spend their annual budget on things they considered more important than compliance with the Federal Regulations.

Can anybody guess what would happen to the Ford Motor Company for instance, if they failed to comply with the Federal Regulations for vehicle emission controls? Or if some Farmer in growing potatos in Idaho failed to comply with the Federal Requirements for the use of DDT"

Why does the Forest Service get to ignore the Federal Requirements and continue to recognize the Superstition Mountains (and several other Wilderness Area all over the U.S.) as a Wilderness Area instead of a National Forest? Is our Government immune to it's own Rules and Regulations?

Could this have something to do with why Scott said he has never arrested anybody for violation of the Wilderness Act? Is it possible that a defence lawyer could beat any charges brought against an individual, based on the fact that the requirements for the Superstition Mountains to be a Wilderness Area have not been met, and the Forest Service knows it?

I don't know, I am just asking. Couple the above with the low resolution photos of selected portions of selected Wilderness Areas and one can begins to suspect a hidden agenda here somewhere. An agenda that is too expensive to support in compliance with the law, but since nobody is paying attention or asking any questions, our Government continues to swallow up more public land every year by one method or another, and increase the number of restrictions on it like some kind of dictatorship that does not have to comply with it's own laws or answer to the public for it's actions.

I like the Requirements for vehicle emission controls and the use of DDT.

I also like the Federal Requirements for Wilderness Areas. If they were followed when decisions were made to designate an area as a Wilderness Area, and these areas were maintained in accordance with the requirements I wouldn't be complaining.

Doesn't this bother anyone else but me?

Blazer

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

HI my friend Blazer: For what it is worth the Spanish have been using the Sun and Oro symbols for centuries.

At Tubares there is a sun symbol on the cliff that is almost 40 ft in diameter, I believe that I know what is there for, someday I will follow it up after I finish opening Tayopa.

As for these infamous stones, I have absolutely no interest in them other than idle curiosity. they are NOT on my agenda. I have enough here for three lifetimes since I am all by myself.

In any event, keep plugging away, but I suggest that no-one insinuate that another is a bit, shall we say Asiatic like me.. In fact if one believes that they possibly are genuine, they are foolish to keep bringing it up, since it may just spark someone to go and actually find the LDM.

i.e. why spark more competition?

Tropical Tramp