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Treasure Trove Permits

RT,

I'm not jumping on poor oro. I'm just stating a fact and telling it like it is. oro tells it like he sees it, and isn't afraid to call people who can't defend themselves any longer a liar. So I'm sure he doesn't mind someone pointing out the other side of his coin. I agree, when someone shines the spotlight of truth on someone, it can get warm and uncomfortable. oro doesn't mind shining his so I'm sure he understands when the light gets in his eyes a little.

If you feel what I refered to in my post fits you, then yes, I guess I was talking about you.

I really don't care what your credentials are, or oro's or anyone elses. I know people who have spent their whole lives in the mountains and aren't any smarter than the day before they first went in. I really don't care if you believe anything I say or not so I won't waste either of our time with it. I don't have to impress anyone or prove what I know, or have done, or can do to anyone. I'm happy with what I've researched, what I've done and where I've been and thats all I need.
This forum doesn't have anything to do with debate about LDM or Stone Map issues, it's a platform for a couple of internet trolls and flamers to lay in wait for unsuspecting people to come along so they can ply their trade with their favorite topic.

CuMiner
 

Anybody heard or seen Mike/Gollum around ?
He's not down there with you is he Jose ? :-*
 

=MesaBuddy ]
Anybody heard or seen Mike/Gollum around ?
He's not down there with you is he Jose ? :-*
**************

Hi mesa, no he isn't here maybe inside of his tunnel stuck or squashed? Anyone kmow where it is?

Tropical Tramp
 

TT,
HI COPPERMINER: If you are referring to me, some of my credentials are below.

As for ORO, his footprints are found from the deserts to Alaska as both a prospector and lost mine hunter. Beth is generally along to keep him in line.

YOU??

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Hey Buddy, I didn't see the credentials you were going to include. I would have never asked, but since you offered, what are they? Surely you have more than just being a member of a club???

I have no problem with your theory that the mule could have been killed there, and the stones dropped on the ground. It doesn't explain how some of the other pieces fell in different places but sometimes theories have to be bounced around shake out ALL the details.


CUMINER,

You have a keen eye for seeing through the smoke and mirrors.

Blazer
 

Hi Guys (and Gal) – Miss me?

I’m back to work but after three weeks out of the office, I have a lot of catching up to do and not a lot of time to spend here. Whew! So much to respond to. I’ll think I’ll keep things simple:

To everybody (part 1) – y’all should listen to Oro and stop giving him grief. The man knows whereof he speaks. I hadn’t really thought of Storm as having been the one behind the “Stone Maps” and so haven’t looked into it myself, but it’s a good hypothesis.

To Blindbowman – Sorry about being a pain in the ass, but I’m glad that you understand why. You showed me that photo of the “Spanish Arrow” before but I am unclear as to what it is (the picture is a bit fuzzy) – is it a carved or pecked into the rock? What makes you think it’s Spanish? What does it point to? And what’s this about “guard towers?” I don’t recall you mentioning them before.

To Oroblanco – A question: What is the source of the description everybody uses for Walz’s gold ore? Is it, in fact, a real and reliable source, accurate in all its details sufficient to actually differentiate it from any other source? When compared to all other sources in the vicinity of the Supersititions, what is it compared against? Are there accurate descriptions of every vein or ore body from every one of the Goldfield mines? Just curious – but in my experience working with mines over the last 3 decades, there can be a lot of variability within a single ore body depending on its formational history, certainly enough not to be able to rule out one of the known mines in the vicinity of the Superstitions as having been the LDM and having already been “found” by actual prospectors unacquainted with a reclusive old German immigrant in Phoenix….

To Blazer – I have not read the AzHwys article on the Stones, but I do know know something about the people and events you referenced. Rather than going point for point I will just say this: as you have already heard from others in the Forum, Polzer was not the lying SOB that the opposing side made him out to be regarding the Mt Graham controversy, Jenny Adams happens to be one of the most experienced and respected ground stone analysts in the country, and I have personally checked many of Elizabeth Miksa’s rock sourcing studies and found them to be quite reliable (in this case, they also confirm my own assessment of the origin of the stones). The truth is, there is no scientific, historic, forensic, or any other kind of evidence or logic that supports the idea that the Stones are anything other than a post-War fraud, but you (like too many others) appear to be reluctant to accept any information or analysis that conflicts with the idea that they are an authentic indicator of the presence of a lost treasure, despite the fact that any treasure it may refer to would have to be mythical since none of the people supposedly associated with it were ever anywhere near the stones or the Superstitions and since it has never been found by any of the hundreds of people using the stones for clues. If that is your belief, you are welcome to it, but don’t accuse other people of accepting only the information that supports their position when that is exactly what you are doing yourself.

About Jesuit explorations: Kino never crossed the Gila – he reported that he made it to the border of Apacheria (the Gila) and could see it but he never went there. Sedelmayr did cross it – once – possibly passing by the ruins of Los Muertos or Mesa Grande and apparently followed the Salt River to its confluence with the Verde but didn’t follow either one of them upstream from there, and certainly didn’t wander off into the Superstitions; there was no reason to anyway, since he was looking for Piman souls to save and there weren’t any living there (or in the Phoenix/Mesa area either, for that matter) at that time. He was the only “Spaniard” ever to see the lower Verde and the only Jesuit to get within 20 miles of the Supers. By the way, if you or anyone else wants to see a good snapshot view of what the Jesuits were up to in the SW just before they were booted, read Juan Nentvig's Rudo Ensayo from 1764.

To everybody (part 2) – I do not want to weigh in on the whole Wilderness/Mining Law question any more other than to say this. Contrary to what Blazer seems to think, the government is not taking any more land when they make wilderness, it is merely altering the management of land it already owns. There hasn’t been any net gain in Federal land in ages; the truth is, it is dwindling away in land exchanges, townsite sales, and other land management programs. If they did away with the Superstition wilderness today it would still be National Forest tomorrow. As for the mining laws, I know that the myth of the small prospector making most of the discoveries is a tough one to kill, but the fact is, it really is the big multi-nationals that do most of the exploration and discovery nowadays. Why? Because the only profitable ore bodies left in the US aren’t accessible to surface prospecting; there really isn’t that much ground left out there that prospectors – amateur and professional - have not been over at some point in the last 100 years. Nowadays, it takes geologists and deep drilling technology to discover and develop ore bodies.

As for the patent moratorium, there are problems with the mining industry that most of you have never been exposed to and a lot of abuses. Patent abuse is mostly a small miner problem – patent a few acres for your mine and another five for your mill, “discover” that there’s nothing really there, and then turn around and subdivide or sell the patented land – to which the land managing agency is obligated to provide access if it is landlocked within, say, FS or BLM land. But that wasn’t the real reason we stopped processing patents; basically, we needed a breather. Y’all are right when you say that the US has the strongest environmental laws governing mining – when that activity takes place on federal land under permit. Patented land isn’t subject to the same laws and most States don’t control mining the way the Feds do. Long story short, mining on patented land inside Federal land often results in extensive environmental damage to the Federal land around and downstream from the patent. And despite the laws, no large mine anywhere in the west at least has ever been returned to “pristine” conditions without a serious infusion of Federal Superfund money. Part of the problem is that the 1872 law does not provide the kind of guarantees or income to the government to repair the damage of mining. Even so, we are not opposed to mining per se. As we speak, the new Carlota Copper Mine is beginning operations on FS land east of Superior and we have been negotiating with the Resolution Copper Company regarding an even bigger mine just behind Apache Leap. In case you are wondering, the Carlota is being developed over the top of the historic Carlota and Hamilton mines on historic claims and patents, though it’s mostly on FS land; those mines played out when they reached the outer parts of the original ore body which has a different chemical composition than the original discovery that they were unable to utilize back then. A multinational, Cambior, came in and conducted drill exploration and developed plans for new extractive and beneficiating processes; the myriad little prospect holes throughout the area (no parts of which were left untouched) contributed nothing to the development planning. The Resolution ore body was found by geologic modeling from the old Magma mine and located by means of deep drilling. It’s 7,000 feet down; no amount of amateur prospecting would have ever found it.

Anyway, the whole mining issue is an incredibly complex one that isn’t easily understood from the outside, where it tends to look like the government is against it; it’s not – despite the fact that this administration has no qualms about outsourcing jobs to increase private sector profits regardless, nobody wants to see jobs and profits and royalties (not that the American people get much in the way of royalties under the 1872 law) go overseas. But we in the land managing agencies have a duty to protect federal lands for all of their owners, including, believe it or not, you.

As for the Wilderness situation, I have my own issues with it and so won’t argue any side here, other than to say that there is no conspiracy to hide anything in the Superstitions, because there’s nothing in there to hide. The Google Earth photos are what they are, just like the low-res photos of a lot of places that I’d like to see better, but nobody has coughed up the money to pay for the kind of photos you and I might want for every place there is. And there are other sources – Google Earth is not the only one. Have you ever thought to visit your friendly neighborhood FS office and ask to see their airphotos? If you come in without a chip on your shoulder and explain that you are interested in better terrain info for a trip you want to make or wish to share information about something you’ve found, you might be surprised. Hell, last I checked, we can even sell you copies of the photos (but they are not cheap! The Supervisor’s Office has one set and everybody has to share because we can’t afford multiple copies – most of us end up using the lower resolution digitized photos in our GIS database) and these airphotos are a whole lot better resolution than anything you’ll find on Google. The point is, we’re not hiding anything out there – which would be kind of hard anyway with the thousands of visitors wandering around the place every year.

And if you are concerned about reduction in vehicular access on the Forests, I suggest that you contact your local Forest Supervisor’s Office and ask to talk to the Travel Management Coordinator to see how you can become involved in the ongoing route evaluation process that all the Forests are currently conducting.

Finally, if you really want the agencies to be able to do their jobs, lobby Congress to pay for the things they tell us to do. If you want to make that even more impossible than it already is and ensure that the public will be even less well served than they are now, encourage more lawsuits by yelling “conspiracy” to the National Enquirer. Half the reason we are handcuffed nowadays is that we are constantly having to spend time and money meant to be used for programs responding to FOIA requests, lawsuits, and Congressional inquiries and directives rather than fulfilling our mandates or working with volunteers or cooperative organizations like the Blue Ribbon Coalition to make sure that the National Forests remain responsive to all of their constituents and not just the ones with the best dressed lawyers.

OK. Enough about stone maps and the politics of mining and wilderness. Things have been getting too serious and a little too acrimonious of late, and a little too much like what I have to put up with at work every day. I think it’s time to lighten things up a bit. Maybe we can talk about something else now, like how Jacob Walz was actually killed by a secret society of Jesuit assassins disguised as free-range egg wholesalers offering to buy his chickens (what, you hadn't heard that one?) or how today’s illegal immigrant and drug trades are actually being run literally as an underground railroad by the Aztecs living inside Bluff Springs Mountain…

Cheers,
Scott
 

JSCOTTWOOD

Jenny Adams happens to be one of the most experienced and respected ground stone analysts in the country, and I have personally checked many of Elizabeth Miksa’s rock sourcing studies and found them to be quite reliable

You are entitled to your opinion. My opinion is that if they were as experienced and professional as you believe they are, they would have admitted that there was nothing about the stones that could be analyzed. Since you haven't seen the assessment Mr. Hatt made about the expert evaluations, I will copy and paste them below.

I look forward to reading you professional assessment (item by item) of his personal assessment of their expert evaluations.

The most recent “Expert” opinions of the stone maps were published in Jan. 2005 in Arizona Highways. If you read the conclusions of the experts closely you will find that there were no scientific methods used to form the conclusions presented in that article. It is my opinion that the evaluations were shallow and subjective, and their conclusions were based on personal opinions that were not well thought out. In the article Dr. Jenny Adams says: “There is no evidence these stones were ever buried. The stone material is very soft, and there would be a lot of random abrasions. If they sat out in the open, there would be lichen, weathering of the symbols and discoloring of the stone material. Just look at old head stones in a cemetery”. She does not think the stones were ever buried because there are no abrasions. I don’t understand how she came to the conclusion that the stones would have gotten abrasions while laying still underground. Ignoring that, during my own inspection of the original stones, I observed a lot of abrasions on the faces of the stones, visible with the naked eye and similar to what one would expect to see if they had been placed face to face and packed on an animal. But then she says that they could not have set out in the open either because there was no lichen growth or weathering of the symbols. Lichen - Apparently nobody told her that Tumlinson (The original finder, and probably several other people) had cleaned the stones many times looking for any tiny bits of information that he might not have seen before. Will lichen hold up against vigorous scrubbing with a brush, water, soap, and possibly even various unknown chemical cleaners? Weathering – How can you tell if an item has changed from its original condition from weathering if you never saw it in its original condition? What is she comparing it with that has undergone the same unknown treatment for the same length of time? The most weathered stone is a portion of the Priest stone, which is the one that Tumlinson said was partially exposed when he found them. Discoloration – The Priest stone has a generous amount of discoloration all over the face of it, but again, ignoring that, how can you tell if an item has been altered by discoloration if you do not know what it looked like in its original condition? The stones could have been buried or laying out in the open for millions of years before they were inscribed. Headstones – A headstone that has sat in one place undisturbed since it was placed there, cannot be used as an example to compare with something like the stone maps that have been brushed, washed, cleaned by other unknown methods and moved all over the country in the back of a vehicle, not to mention being cared for in a controlled environment for the last 40 - 50 years. She goes on to state that she believes the surfaces were mechanically sanded but offers no explanation of how she came to this conclusion. Didn’t the Egyptians, the Mayans and the Aztecs make smooth surfaces for their inscriptions without using machines to sand them? I have seen many Indian grinding stones with a much flatter and smoother surface than the surface of the Peralta stones. Am I to believe that she would also conclude that these were mechanically sanded? She also claims to have seen dimples made by drill bits at the start of some of the engravings. Why couldn’t any pointed object make a dimple if there were any? Who ever made them had to use tools of some kind. Ignoring that, why have none of the other experts that have examined the stones over the last 50 years ever observed these dimples she claims to have seen? Even an amateur can see the flaws in this non-scientific evaluation! In the same article, Dr. Elizabeth Miksa says: “The Peralta stones originated far from where they were supposedly found”. Even if this were true, so what? To my knowledge, nobody has ever claimed that they were made where they were found. Why would they have to made where they were found to be authentic? Even if she could prove that the only source for the type of stone they are made from was 400 miles away from where they were found. What would that prove? Additionally… Tom Kollenborn, although he does not have a PhD, does have some formal education in Geology and probably knows more about the rock formations that can be found in the Superstitions than anyone else I could name, has stated for years that all three types of rock that the stones are made of can be found within the boundaries of the Superstition Wilderness Area. He can even tell you where you can find them. Dr. Miksa also questions the spelling and grammar on the Peralta stones. Assuming for a moment that they are from the 1847 time period as Dr. Miksa seems to believe, it would be extremely rare to find any kind of Mexican document from that time period that does not have spelling and grammar errors in it. Dropping that assumption and moving on. Many stone map aficionados that have dedicated a year or more, for every one minute that Dr. Miksa has in the study of the stone maps and their possible origin believe that they originated in the mid 1700’s regardless of what appears to be a date of 1847 on two of them. I wonder how the grammar and spelling would compare with documents from that time period? Again, these “Experts” are just providing personal opinions with no scientific basis and very limited if any, consideration of the known history of the stones. In my opinion these “evaluations” are just knee-jerk reactions dressed up with some fancy words to create the illusion of credibility.



OK. Enough about stone maps and the politics of mining and wilderness. Things have been getting too serious and a little too acrimonious of late, and a little too much like what I have to put up with at work every day.

Contrary to what you believe Scott, it IS serious business to a lot of people. Americans have the right to expect their government to comply with it's own laws before imposing them on the public.


I think it’s time to lighten things up a bit. Maybe we can talk about something else now, like how Jacob Walz was actually killed by a secret society of Jesuit assassins disguised as free-range egg wholesalers offering to buy his chickens (what, you hadn't heard that one?) or how today’s illegal immigrant and drug trades are actually being run literally as an underground railroad by the Aztecs living inside Bluff Springs Mountain…

If this is your idea of humor, I don't think it is funny. If it is someone else's idea of humor, I find it difficult to see how you find it worthy of repeating.

Blazer
 

=Cu mner/Blazer link=YOUR CREDNTIALS ?
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Hey Buddy, I didn't see the credentials you were going to include. I would have never asked, but since you offered, what are they? Surely you have more than just being a member of a club???
***************************

I definitely do, but to simplify & clarify the club status, I suggest that you go to

www.explorers.org

You can only become a member by being elected into it by a board of your peers. we work with the National Geographic and The Smithsonian inst..
===
"what one would expect to see if they had been placed face to face and packed on an animal."

Obviously you are lacking in animal packing experience, that is the last thing one would do..
===

Your data is the first that I have seen against Father Polzers reputation. You don' t even allow the possibility that he might have been mistaken, but testified honestly on the basis of his information.
===

I am curious about your type of reaction?? Do you have so much time etc. invested in it that you cannot accept any other variations or theories? Incidentally, I see that you are simply using rhetorical / anecdotal data also, the very same that you are jumping upon ORO for.

Last, but definitely not the least, I resent your attitude towards our fellow posters, especially your's to Scott, He has been leaning over backwards to help us. Of course he cannot reply to your post personally because of his unique position.

Tropical Tramp
 

H ROOM:

I have absolutely no physical interest in the superstitions or the LDM.. I occasionally inject a bit of speculation to add to your theories or to stir the pot etc.

MY PERSONAL OPINION, BASED UPON WHAT HAS BEEN PRESENTED HERE IS SIMPLY

"THEY ARE FRAUDS" ORIGINATED BY REAVES ,

They were originally buried by a cohort of Reaves, but were buried in an area which wasn't clearly identified so they were never recovered in time for his claim and legal defense. After, naturally, there was even less of a reason to recover them.

Unless you can come up with something new, this is the "only" logical possibility.

In answer to one post about people not being here to defend themselves is a bit ridiculous. Based upon this type of remark I suppose that we cannot assess Herr Hitler or hi Gobbles actions or remarks?

Tropical Tramp
 

=djui5 Who's married? :) I'm confused.

*********
YOU are, remember?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

As for golly, i believe that he had a daughter or something that was getting married

Tropical Tramp
 

author=djui5 link=
ahhh! I thought you were referring to Scott :)
******
In my opinion and evaluation he is a sedately married man happily doing a job that he enjoys. but.like me, has never had a bribe offered to him, so, so much for an early retirement. this is to say that trust him.

Tropical Tramp
 

Greetings friends,

Scott welcome back, I hope you had a great vacation. I guess Gollum has been pretty busy, or he would have weighed in too.

Cuminer wrote This forum doesn't have anything to do with debate about LDM or Stone Map issues, it's a platform for a couple of internet trolls and flamers to lay in wait for unsuspecting people to come along so they can ply their trade with their favorite topic.

Dang that is a harsh conclusion, that we are trolls and flamers lying in wait - hope your opinion can be changed.

Jscottwood wrote: To Oroblanco – A question: What is the source of the description everybody uses for Walz’s gold ore? Is it, in fact, a real and reliable source, accurate in all its details sufficient to actually differentiate it from any other source? When compared to all other sources in the vicinity of the Supersititions, what is it compared against? Are there accurate descriptions of every vein or ore body from every one of the Goldfield mines?

There were several witnesses who saw the box of gold ore found beneath the death-bed of Jacob Waltz, Holmes somehow got possession of this gold (he claimed it was given to him by Waltz, Julia Thomas said he had stolen it) and Holmes eventually sold all of it to finance his search for the mine except for a matchbox and a couple of pieces of jewelry. corbingold.gif
(photo of gold ore found beneath bed of Waltz, from Helen Corbin's book)

Ask any geologist or assayer, gold ores are highly individual in character with no two sources exactly alike - there were accusations that Waltz's ore was from the Vulture mine (which he never worked at) or from the Bulldog mine, others have pointed to the Mammoth mine or the Black Queen (near Goldfield) but the ores from these sources differs from Waltz's ore.

I have to disagree about the discovery rate for new mineral deposits being made by the individual prospectors, or at least in what qualifies as a "new discovery" - for the types of discoveries made by the large mining companies are mostly from deep core drilling, on KNOWN mineralized sites - sites originally identified, located and claimed by individuals, including the examples you cited. I have seen the "prospecting" work done by large mining companies - they check the BLM records for any new mining claims filed, then rush out to claim up all the area around them. A good example (it was funny really) is the great diamond discovery in Canada recently, with two individuals (Charles Fipke and Stewart Blusson) beating out the best efforts of DeBeers with their helicopters and massive backing. (A short account is online at:http://atlas.nrcan.gc.ca/site/english/maps/economic/diamondexploration/diamondexploration/1)

The patenting abuse was unreal too - there were developers patenting lands in Colorado as fast as they could go, not to open new mines (with the accompanying high-paying jobs) but to subdivide the patented land and sell it off in lots, pretty much spoiling the natural landscape forever. Sure wish that they had not killed the patenting for the small miner though.

Just one last bit here and I will end my long-winded post - why should we assume that the Dutchman's mine was located in the Superstitions? Because that is where he managed to lose the men who followed him? Doesn't it also make sense that if he knew he was being followed, he might well have led them on the proverbial wild goose chase, AWAY from the true location of his mine? I will point to one incident, which might suggest the correct direction to look for the lost mine - remember one of the last friends of Waltz was Julia Thomas? Shortly after the death of Waltz, she made repeated efforts to locate the mine, though she was (according to Reiney) terribly frightened to be in the desert country at night - well where did she look? She went tramping about the very region of Goldfield, actually walking right over some of the rich deposits later discovered! Since we know there are rich (or were anyway) gold ores in the Goldfield area, doesn't it make sense that a small, chimney type deposit might be in that very same area, just not found today because no one looks there? This area is outside the wilderness area too. Just a thought..... ;)

Oroblanco
 

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Hello again,

Blindbowman, four lookout towers in the Superstitions? Do you mean as in man-made, stone or brick or adobe towers, or do you mean some natural rock pinnacles/hoodoos? Just curious....

Just a side note here, while our federal government may not be openly anti-mining, there are some good indicators if one cares to look. For example, back a few years when they were doing the study for the Desert Protection Act, one agency of the government (an agency which was known to be pro-mining) spoke against the act and said the area was highly mineralized, that agency was the US Bureau of Mines. Just try and find that agency today - it was disbanded! The old US BM used to have a whole library of publications that were helpful for prospectors and miners, some now available through the US Geological Survey but as far as I know many are no longer available. While the addition of more and more "wildernesses" doesn't remove any land from the government ownership, it does lock it up to the prospector. Before you say "but" - yes I am aware that the level of "prospecting" that is on the same level as a rock hound is still allowed in most wildernesses, but if you were to find a good mineral deposit you cannot legally file a claim on it - SO why bother prospecting in wildernesses if you could not ever own any discovery you might find? For the sheer fun of the practice? For what ever small samples you might be able to pick off the surface? They would have to be nearly pure gold hunks to be worth bothering on that level.

All that said in discouragement of prospecting in wildernesses (whether the Superstitions or any other) there are still a surprising number of areas OUT-side of wildernesses that are NOT closed to mineral entry (which means open to new mining claims) and some of these areas are very promising for a small-timer. To give you an example (though in Yukon not USA) a friend of ours who was prospecting in an old "worked out" placer mine in the Klondyke district, where you could perhaps pan out a few colors to the pan from the tailings, managed to find a small pocket on the bedrock that the "big mining company" had missed with their bucketline dredge. From that small pocket in the rock, which he measured out and came to almost exactly one-half yard of gravel, he recovered 767 ounces and a fraction! Now that may not sound like a "fortune" to you but at the time gold was nearly $800 an ounce and despite having to pay the Yukon a small percentage (I think it was three percent) he was left with over a half million bucks and was able to retire. (Retire as a relative term - like any prospector he merely kept on prospecting, but not having to work hard at it!) ;) Small pockets of enrichment are fair game for us individual prospectors-treasure hunters, and small pockets may be hard to find but they DO exist and can be found by the diligent/lucky treasure hunter. Even in old "worked out" mines, rich pockets can be found - look at the famous 16-to-one mine in California, which was believed to be "worked out" when a few individuals bought the mine and went in with modern metal detectors. You know the rest - they have made millions$$$$ from that "played out" old mine!

Also if you are an individual or small partnership and want to get into drilling for the deep deposits, it is possible to buy the small portable drill outfits for under $10k. *see link below* A small one-man model might only be able to drill to 200 feet, the larger versions capable of 600 feet; be forewarned however drilling with these through rock is s-l-o-w and you need to bring your core drill bit up every foot or so and remove the core for testing. There are guys doing it, at least up north (don't know of any here locally) and if you are lucky enough to locate a deep deposit of valuable mineral, those large mining corporations will be more than happy to talk business if you can show them your assay results and drill reports. You can even build your own hammer-drill* (all you need is a string of tools, a pulley and tripod and either an engine to lift and drop it or be really ambitious and do it like the Chinese -by hand! ::)) and drill to even greater depths, but cannot get core samples by this method you must flush up your drill cuttings and hand-pan the stuff constantly to have an idea if you should hit a vein or deposit - and hand panning will miss that microscopic gold. We had one of the small drill rigs and it worked surprisingly well, used it to drill a number of bore-holes for core samples and a well. (Don't mention that part to the IRS though, we were using "company" equipment for a private use! :o Just that once though.) I am not recommending buying your own small drill rig, it is not for the impatient or less-than-ambitious person; it is hard work and you must drill your holes on a 'grid' (any mining company will insist on having reports based on a grid system) so will drill a lot of holes that produce nothing but exercise. *(Read The Alaskan Prospectors Handbook, may be out of print, for a good description of how to build your own drill rig and other useful mining and camping equipment) portable drill rigs: http://www.hydratek2000.com/(you will need a diamond core drill bit with the rig)

Back to the LDM - what if that long-sought mine is NOT within the Superstitions wilderness area? If you think about it, it makes sense - Waltz was followed by claim jumpers like Dick Holmes so he led them into the Superstitions, and generally managed to lose them near Weaver's Needle. Hmm. Then we have the Holmes version (which is echoed by Bicknell, Storm and others) which tells how to find the mine by a sort of "waybill" - yet it is possible that Waltz was telling Holmes a complete fabrication, to throw him off! Remember that Julia Thomas went looking in the Goldfield area, now why would she look there if the mine were really in the Superstitions? I suspect it is quite possible that the famous Lost Dutchman mine is not within the Supers at all - that it might be north or NE of Goldfield, which is a known gold mineralized region. After all, some 100,000 people have combed the Superstitions looking for the LDM without luck, perhaps it is because the mine is not IN the Superstitions at all? To search there one would have to dismiss the whole Holmes version, but we already know of some lies within that version so why not? Those old arrastras near Tortilla Flat might well be related to the mine - remember that arrastras are not necessarily immediately adjacent to the mines! Just an idea, maybe I will just go check for myself some time. Who knows, maybe tomorrow someone will find the mine and we can all quit wondering!

Good luck and good hunting to you, hope you find the treasure that you seek.
Oroblanco
 

" ... why should we assume that the Dutchman's mine was located in the Superstitions? Because that is where he managed to lose the men who followed him? Doesn't it also make sense that if he knew he was being followed, he might well have led them on the proverbial wild goose chase, AWAY from the true location of his mine?..."

If there was a 'LDM', this is probably the most pertinent statement about it that I've seen posted on this forum. The name of the game is 'disinformation'. You're all intelligent people - ask yourself, "What would I do?"
 

Good morning Cuminer / Blaser or anyone, can you please clear up once and for all - were the stones all found in the same area, same time, or what ever? So far I have heard many theories on the stories.

The pasted data below is why I am confused. I have no problem with it what-so-ever , I just want to learn more.

Thanks gentlemen.

\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\

I have no problem with your theory that the mule could have been killed there, and the stones dropped on the ground. It doesn't explain how some of the other pieces fell in different places but sometimes theories have to be bounced around shake out ALL the details

Tropical Tramp
 

TT,
Last, but definitely not the least, I resent your attitude towards our fellow posters, especially your's to Scott, He has been leaning over backwards to help us. Of course he cannot reply to your post personally because of his unique position.

I have nothing against Scott personally and I have said that before. If I appear to have a chip on my shoulder, is for his double talking, law breaking, employer. I have commended him in the past for presenting himself on this forum at the risk of personal ridicule in his attempts to defend his employer. If he cannot reply to my post personally because of his unique position, I think he would have said so. I would sooner believe his taking the time necessary to form detailed response.


Item 1
Dr. Jenny Adams says: “There is no evidence these stones were ever buried. The stone material is very soft, and there would be a lot of random abrasions. If they sat out in the open, there would be lichen, weathering of the symbols and discoloring of the stone material. Just look at old head stones in a cemetery”.

Response

She does not think the stones were ever buried because there are no abrasions. I don’t understand how she came to the conclusion that the stones would have gotten abrasions while laying still underground. Ignoring that, during my own inspection of the original stones, I observed a lot of abrasions on the faces of the stones, visible with the naked eye and similar to what one would expect to see if they had been placed face to face and packed on an animal.

Item 2
But then she says that they could not have set out in the open either because there was no lichen growth or weathering of the symbols. Lichen

Response

Apparently nobody told her that Tumlinson (The original finder, and probably several other people) had cleaned the stones many times looking for any tiny bits of information that he might not have seen before. Will lichen hold up against vigorous scrubbing with a brush, water, soap, and possibly even various unknown chemical cleaners? Weathering – How can you tell if an item has changed from its original condition from weathering if you never saw it in its original condition? What is she comparing it with that has undergone the same unknown treatment for the same length of time? The most weathered stone is a portion of the Priest stone, which is the one that Tumlinson said was partially exposed when he found them. Discoloration – The Priest stone has a generous amount of discoloration all over the face of it, but again, ignoring that, how can you tell if an item has been altered by discoloration if you do not know what it looked like in its original condition? The stones could have been buried or laying out in the open for millions of years before they were inscribed. Headstones – A headstone that has sat in one place undisturbed since it was placed there, cannot be used as an example to compare with something like the stone maps that have been brushed, washed, cleaned by other unknown methods and moved all over the country in the back of a vehicle, not to mention being cared for in a controlled environment for the last 40 - 50 years.




Item 3
She goes on to state that she believes the surfaces were mechanically sanded but offers no explanation of how she came to this conclusion.

Response

Didn’t the Egyptians, the Mayans and the Aztecs make smooth surfaces for their inscriptions without using machines to sand them? I have seen many Indian grinding stones with a much flatter and smoother surface than the surface of the Peralta stones. Am I to believe that she would also conclude that these were mechanically sanded? She also claims to have seen dimples made by drill bits at the start of some of the engravings. Why couldn’t any pointed object make a dimple if there were any? Who ever made them had to use tools of some kind. Ignoring that, why have none of the other experts that have examined the stones over the last 50 years ever observed these dimples she claims to have seen? Even an amateur can see the flaws in this non-scientific evaluation!


Item 4
Elizabeth Miksa says: “The Peralta stones originated far from where they were supposedly found”.

Response

Even if this were true, so what? To my knowledge, nobody has ever claimed that they were made where they were found. Why would they have to made where they were found to be authentic? Even if she could prove that the only source for the type of stone they are made from was 400 miles away from where they were found. What would that prove? Additionally… Tom Kollenborn, although he does not have a PhD, does have some formal education in Geology and probably knows more about the rock formations that can be found in the Superstitions than anyone else I could name, has stated for years that all three types of rock that the stones are made of can be found within the boundaries of the Superstition Wilderness Area. He can even tell you where you can find them.


Item 5
Dr. Miksa also questions the spelling and grammar on the Peralta stones.


Response

Assuming for a moment that they are from the 1847 time period as Dr. Miksa seems to believe, it would be extremely rare to find any kind of Mexican document from that time period that does not have spelling and grammar errors in it. Dropping that assumption and moving on. Many stone map aficionados that have dedicated a year or more, for every one minute that Dr. Miksa has in the study of the stone maps and their possible origin believe that they originated in the mid 1700’s regardless of what appears to be a date of 1847 on two of them. I wonder how the grammar and spelling would compare with documents from that time period?

In my opinion, neither side of the debate for or against the stone maps gets any points from anything above. The Arizona Highways article is just taking up space. Anyone that accepts the information in it as scientific evidence, or in any way conclusive, isn't reading it from an objective point of view.

As Jim Hatt (a registered Health Physicist with over 30 years experience in his field) pointed out in his article about dating the stone maps. There is no known scientific method of accurately dating the maps. His responses to the expert evaluations have been open for dispute since they were posted ,and to date have not been challenged by anyone. Scott has a lot of resources and contacts available to him. I am sure he will consult all of them before he challenges any of Jim's comments.

While we are waiting for it TT, feel free to post your own challenges.

Blazer
 

Morning Blaser, since I have never read very much on this subject I have no challenges to make or have any theories to defend, In essence, I have absoloutely nothing to gain except to satisfy idle curiosity.

I have already found my LDM which is far greater than the Superstiton's LDM.

Tropical Tramp
 

B

That is the whole problem with the stone maps in a nutshell. The so-called "Experts" can argue back and forth forever, but in the end nobody can win because their opinions are always debatable. In this particular case, you do not have to be a qualified expert in the field to see that there are some potential flaws in the expert's conclusions. I think it was Gollum that said, the only thing you can do is take a good look at the man who found them, and evaluate his actions. What he believed, and what he did, carries more weight than any expert's opinion. He tried to have them dated at Redlands. He never made them public. He guarded them fiercely, and he spent a lot of time in the mountains trying to figure out where they led to. Obviously he believed in them.

Take care Beth,

Blazer
 

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