Treasure Trove Permits

Sigh Gollum, is that what we can expect of a Ranger in combat? At a critical time to disobey orders and do that?

With that kind of guy we would still be sitting in England looking across the channel at Germany, providing the Russians had left enough to survive.


Tropical Tramp

p.s. My room mate flew A-26 's in Korea. He was sent on a 5 plane mission to blow up a staging area located in the bend of a deep canyon heavily defended. . The Chinese had strung piano wire from ridge to ridge. The wire can slice an aircraft wing off just as easily as it can slice a hard boiled egg.

The lead man made his run ok, then slammed into the wall of the canyon, there wasn't enough room to pull up or turn. The next one lost a wing to the wire and spun in, no survivors either. The third and fourth also ended up on the cliffs. When it came my roomates turn , he said just as your spec, force guy did, and aborted.

They tried to courtmartial him but it tuned out that the staging area was made as a set up to lure arcraft into an impossible situation, and the powers that be, knew this. They allowed the attact in order to not let the Chinese know that they had cracked theri intelligence, and knew what the Chinese were doing. The rational was that 5 aircraft were cheap if this knowledge could lead to winning a major battle and possibly saving 100's or 1000;s of lives. hmmm.

Things like this were the reason for "Operation Tiger".

Command decisions can be rough.

Tropical Tramp
 

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TRopical Tramp
 

Greetings friends,

Blindbowman has pointed out that the Holmes version can be "proven" on some points - such as the starting point (First Water) even the three red hills etc - which only proves that the directions told to Holmes included actual landmarks that he could verify - not good evidence that he was telling him how to get to the mine. If you were telling someone a false trail to your mine, it would be wise to include known, real landmarks that would seem to "prove" your tale was true. A set of directions which was completely bogus would quickly be seen as bogus by the person trying to follow it. (Kind of reminds you of something else, doesn't it?)

Real de Tayopa wrote: I will trade my cute mule to ORO for you, maybe even throw in two Hudson Bay 3 1/2 stripped (Beaver Pelt) blankets and a cast iron Dutch Oven.

HEY don't start giving HER ideas! ;)

Blindbowman wrote: Oro i was thinking about what you said about the nephew ... and this goes to the value of this find . if it is proven that it is the nephew...<snip>

I was unable to find any sort of evidence that Jacob Waltz even had a nephew at all, let alone one that came to his mine to work with him. However Jacob Weiser, his partner, is documented and prove-able. Weiser was no nephew, perhaps a distant cousin though - but he was not murdered by Waltz nor did he die in the Superstitions. In my opinion, Waltz left clues in the Holmes version which his friends would know as false (like the statements about not being a citizen and not intending to ever become one, when he had already been naturalized) which casts doubt on the entire Holmes version. Remember Holmes searched for the mine for the rest of his life, and his son continued to do so - never finding it. Blindbowman is wise to hold back from making an absolute conclusion about the bones; if the bones prove to be human, it is still not proven that this human must have been the nephew of Waltz - it could just as easily be some other misfortunate person. Remember, quite a number of people have died in the Superstitions in the years SINCE 1891, not even counting those that died there prior to the death of Waltz.

A side note here but if you don't have the copyright symbol, the US copyright office will recognize a copyright notice written without the symbol, if it is a "c" enclosed by two parentheses - like this
(c) 1998 Albert Einstein

Oroblanco
 

i agree oro , but i stand by my opioion .. yes i knew the dutchman had been a citizen , and your right there is no record of him haveing a nephew at all . but there is nothing saying he did not have a nephew ...but if he him self was from germany it would be foolish to think he had no family there ....

confused , the starting point IMHO had nothing to do with frist water or secound water ...

if the site is a grave and the bones in the grave are germany Dna and the skull has a hole in the forhead between the eyes , and a chain around the neck , would you beleave it was the dutchmans's nephew than ?

what if the bones in the neck were broken as if the body had been dragged , or if the age of the bones were that of a younger boy say 16-24 years of age ...

what if the grave had coins of germany near the remains . ?

this is my point we dont know yet , anything is posable ....

yet is anything logicial ... with in reasonable dout !


if this was the nephew would the dutchman had a logicial reason for killing him and why tell anyone ...


he is on his death bed ,he had no one else to tell ...

dont beleave me but you may want to check dick holmes statements vs the other two acounts ,,, only dick holmes acount he calls( the stone house in the cave) a rock house 3 times in that acount ! i know why do you ?© the blindbowman ,2006
 

Greetings Blindbowman and everyone,

Blindbowman wrote:
there is nothing saying he did not have a nephew ...but if he him self was from germany it would be foolish to think he had no family there ...

No there is not, and perhaps with more research, other relatives could be turned up including nephews and nieces. Jacob Waltz came from a large family, and at least 15 members of his family emigrated to America. It seems logical that he could have had many nephews and nieces, and records were not as well kept in the 1800s as today. Waltz shipped at least $240,000 to relatives in Deutschland. I just can't PROVE that he had any nephews here in AZ, much less working with him at his mine. On the other hand, I CAN prove that Waltz had a partner for a little while, a man named Jacob Weiser, who died of wounds received from an Apache attack, but lived long enough to reach a ranch. Notice in the Holmes version, there is NO mention of Weiser, even though we can PROVE that Weiser existed and did work with Waltz. Strange, no? ???

the starting point IMHO had nothing to do with frist water or secound water .

I have a copy of the Holmes manuscript, here is the relevant passage:

Go to First Water, then to Second Water, then take the old Government Trail to San Carlos...<snip> (taken verbatim from The True Story of the Lost Dutchman of the Superstitions as told to my father Dick Holmes by Jacob Wolz on his Death Bed, by Brownie Holmes, known popularly as the Holmes manuscript.)

Even here is a problem - for according to this Holmes version, we are supposed to first go to First Water - yet when Jacob Waltz died, the first place Dick Holmes raced to was NOT First Water but Hidden Water, where he discovered the human remains - including the skull with a bullet hole and a chain around the neck.

Blindbowman also wrote: if the site is a grave and the bones in the grave are germany Dna and the skull has a hole in the forhead between the eyes , and a chain around the neck , would you beleave it was the dutchmans's nephew than ?

No, what this would prove is that the human remains are that of a person from Germany. Holmes removed the skull and brought it to the sheriff, so there should not be any skull remaining for anyone to find. Let's not go making assumptions beyond what the evidence can PROVE.

what if the bones in the neck were broken as if the body had been dragged , or if the age of the bones were that of a younger boy say 16-24 years of age ..

This would serve to prove only what you have already said - that the body had been dragged, and were of a younger boy aged 16 to 24 years. Identification of skeletal remains is quite a trick even with modern sophistication, unless DNA can be extracted and matched to known DNA or at least a part of the dentition (teeth) that could be examined by dentists and matched to known dental work, it would be difficult to identify the bones as anyone in particular - we have quite a number of "John Does" in county morgues even today.

what if the grave had coins of germany near the remains . ?


This would strongly suggest that the person had either been from Germany or had been to that country prior to his or her death - now if you found a pocket watch with an inscription that said "from your beloved uncle Jacob Waltz" we would have a strong proof of the remains being a direct relative - but some coins would NOT seal the case for identifying a set of human bones. Remember we don't even know if these bones ARE human at this point.

this is my point we dont know yet , anything is posable ....

yet is anything logicial ... with in reasonable dout !


Correct - you have found some mysterious bones, beyond that we actually don't know at this point. We don't even know how long those bones have been there, whether they are 'in situ' or if they washed in there from our monsoon rains; it is possible they may be the correct bones to prove it was the nephew (name?) of Jacob Waltz, or they could have been deposited there two years ago or two thousand years ago. We cannot tell at this point.

if this was the nephew would the dutchman had a logicial reason for killing him and why tell anyone ...


he is on his death bed ,he had no one else to tell ..

There have been cases of mining partners killing each other, however it seems illogical that Waltz would have asked for his relative to come and help him, then while living and working in the lands of extremely hostile and dangerous Apaches, to shoot him - his only possible ally in case of any Apache attack, plus the gunshot which could very well attract the un-wanted attention of these same Apaches. A death-bed confession carries some weight in court, so cannot be totally discounted, but it just does not make much sense. At least not to me.

dont beleave me but you may want to check dick holmes statements vs the other two acounts ,,, only dick holmes acount he calls( the stone house in the cave) a rock house 3 times in that acount ! i know why do you

Actually I do have the Holmes version as well as several others (Julia, Reiney etc) and have compared them. In the light of the KNOWN lies to be found in the Holmes account, I tend to view every statement in it with a very strong dose of salt. Have you read the full Holmes version, including the Mexican soldiers, women and children, cattle and sheep etc? It is a great tale for telling round the campfires, but NOT one that I would use as a good guide to locate the carefully hidden (and quite small) gold mine worked by Jacob Waltz and Jacob Weiser in the 1870s to 1891. There are actually at least two rock houses in the Superstitions too - and one in a cave and a rock wall, along with quite a number of concrete dams etc put in by the WPA during the Depression years. Why does Holmes include three references to the "rock house" in his version? I don't know, but note that he has that rock house as "the" most important thing you MUST find in order to locate the mine. It is common practice to repeat important passages three times (a good way to learn a new person's name, say it three times) just check your Old Testament. Remember Holmes searched for that mine for the rest of his life, and his son after him for many years, without success. Still think the Holmes version is a good source of clues to find that mine? They are simple enough to follow out - many, many hundreds of people HAVE followed them out - yet the mine remains hidden... :(

Don't let my personal view of the Holmes version as a pack of lies prevent you from following up on them, who knows perhaps it will be proven correct? I have done some searching in the Superstitions personally, (may do a bit more if I can fin-agle it) and do not find the Holmes version to be worthy of following up - but that is MY OPINION. So please do not take my skepticism of Holmes as any kind of personal affront - if you feel that the Holmes version is a good source of information to find that lost gold mine, it is your prerogative to make use of it regardless of what anyone here might have to say about it. Good luck and good hunting to you, hope you find the treasure that you seek.

Oroblanco
 

I think we already have to question everything from the Holmes version on the basis previously mentioned - Waltz surely did not view him as a friend, and we know of LIES within the version.

This is also dependent on where Blindbowman found these bones (which remember may not be human remains, we just don't know yet) if it was near Hidden Water, then it might well "fit" with the Holmes tale. If a skull is found, we know something is wrong - because Holmes took the skull so there should not be one to find. Also even if they are human remains, we have no proof of the identity of the remains. Lots of work to do here......

Djui5 wrote: ahhh...I love this stuff.
Ditto my friend - a bit of 'detective' work isn't it?

Oroblanco
 

Gentlemen,

A considerable portion of the foregoing discussion has become moot: I showed Bowman's photos to a physical anthropologist that I've worked with for years and know to be reliable. Her assessment confirmed mine - the bones belonged not to a dear departed but to a departed deer. Sorry Bob.

By the way, I tend to go with Roy on the veracity of the Holmes story - an awful lot of people have followed its directions (including both Dick and Brownie) for years and found nothing. You want to know the ironic thing - the original Holmes (illegal) homestead was on Federal land that later became part of the Forest and there are several small mines nearby, one being no more than 100 meters away. While none of these mines was successful, all of them playing out rather quickly, they produced more gold than both Dick and Brownie together ever found looking for the LDM.

Before anybody asks, they were copper mines (actually, more like explorations, most of them) and probably contained no more gold than any of the other copper mines in that area - barely a trace.

Cheers,
Scott
 

NOT TO TOSS A BIT OF ICE INTO THE COFFEE POT, BUT I HAVE FOUND BONES SIMILAR TO THAT. WHERE A PERSON, OR ANIMAL, APPARENTLY SUFFERING FROM HEAT EXHAUSTION, CRAWLED INTO SHALLOW CAVE TO ESCAPE THE SUN THEN FOR ONE REASON OR ANOTHER, DIED IN THERE.

I AM QUITE SURE THAT YOU THAT HAVE RUN AROUND THE DESERT VERY MUCH HAVE ENCOUNTERED THE SAME.

TROPICAL TRAMP

p.s. I see that I used caps, sorry, but being inherently lazy I will not retype it, so there (:>D) ======+

P.P.S. I SEE THAT I HAVE DONE IT AGAIN, I TEND TO ANSWER A POST AS SOON AS I SEE IT INSTEAD OF SCROLLING DOWN TO THE END, SORRY BETH BEAT ME TO IT THE LASTTIME, SCOTT THIS TIME, SNIFFF..
 

thank you Scott ! so it is your opioion that these are not human bones , and i can check this site , yes or no . i only want to uncover the bones nothing more , as little uncoverd as possable ...with photos .. and if there is a human skull in there ....its your bad ...


i agree with everything you guys said about dick holmes statement .. but the fact remains i have a new site 4 and it dose in fact have a large stone house ...

when i go back this next time i will be looking at the house and the tunnle area ...

remember scott you said they are deer bones ....i will take you at your word .. i cant brake any law i know of by checking out deer bones right ... lol
 

Bob,

The fact that the bones aren't human would suggest that what you have there is not the nephew's or anybody else's burial which would indicate that it would be a waste of time to investigate that location further. Since I know that will not discourage you from doing so, if you do go back to that place and poke around, make sure you photograph everything you find.

Technically, you probably shouldn't be doing any digging out there without the permit. On the other hand, at the moment you don't have enough evidence of anything to get a permit. Catch-22. However, since the dead nephew - assuming he wasn't just another story to pump up the Dutchman's reputation as a ruthless killer willing to defend his mine at all costs - is not specifically related to the location of the mine, there is no expectation of the presence of any treasure trove at the location of his burial, so we can let it slide. I only ask that you don't get carried away looking for the nephew. If you do find the skull that you think is there, I trust that you will not expose anymore than you have to to photograph it. And remember, even if there is somebody buried there, the odds are much higher that it would be Apache (and you really don't want to be desecrating an Apache burial) and even if it's not Apache, there would still be a long way to go to prove that it was who you say it was...

After you are through there, I'd appreciate it if you backfilled any holes you dug, whether there was anything in them or not. In the tradition of the LDM, we like to practice the "leave no trace" ethic in the wilderness.

Still waiting to see your photos of the stone house. Speaking of which, I won't be back in my office until 1/8/07, so please don't e-mail me anything there until after that; after 3 weeks gone, my inbox is going to explode as it is....

Later,
Scott
 

The Mine With The Iron Door by Harold bell Wright copy righted 1923 ... is that the iron door legend your talking about ? if so he latter states that the legends of that mine with the iron door was a legend long before he wrote about it and that the true location was unknown ....that it was somewhere in AZ .....i think it was more for good book sales my self ...this book started others writeing about treasures and so on ... i have a copy if you would like to read it ...


scott "If you do find the skull that you think is there, I trust that you will not expose anymore than you have to to photograph it. " agreed ! but i can only ask why would you say this if its just deer bones ? on the other hand maybe the dutchman put deer bones on the grave to missledd people or if it was a apache grave this could be a matter of tribute....... if i uncover a skull note i did not say dig ! if i uncover a skull i will check skull for forhead bulite hole and the neck line for a chain and than recover the site carefully after photos are take ...less is better in this case ...and i do agree ...

besides that i have only shared less than 30% of my research as of yet and after the what has happend with this nephew site i will wait to give out any photos of the house in the cave ... i beleave it will take weeks to reveiw the photos anyway ...

so i will not be posting any more evidence unless i find treasure or prove of treasure ...

you have a good vacation scott ...marry xmas and a happy new year... © the blindbowman ,2006
 

Hey BB,

The Iron Door Mine was supposedly found in the seventies. It was not too far from Yuma, near the Mexican Border.

Scott,

Hope you and yours have a wonderful Christmas. See you when you get back.

Best,

Mike
 

Re: Treasure Trove Permits (long reply - extra coffee alert...;)

Greetings,

JScottWood wrote: The fact that the bones aren't human would suggest that what you have there is not the nephew's or anybody else's burial which would indicate that it would be a waste of time to investigate that location further.

I have to agree with Scott - as he points out, even if it WERE the nephew of Jacob Waltz, there is no reason to think there would be any treasure buried there.

Blindbowman wrote: The Mine With The Iron Door by Harold bell Wright copy righted 1923 ... is that the iron door legend your talking about ?

Actually yes the same story, not that particular version of it though. Thanks for the offer, might take you up on it some time. The version I have read placed this lost mine in the Santa Catalina mountains, as mentioned earlier, several have seen the door but as far as I know, none have actually entered it. I still had not heard of any Iron Door in the Superstitions however, prior to your mentioning it.

Gollum wrote: The Iron Door Mine was supposedly found in the seventies. It was not too far from Yuma, near the Mexican Border.

That is news to me - do you remember where you heard of it Mike?

Scott have a great vacation, and hope you and yours have a very Merry Christmas and Happy New Year! See you when you get back.

Blindbowman wrote: so i will not be posting any more evidence unless i find treasure or prove of treasure ..

May I ask why? Is it because of the skepticism of some of us? I hope that is not the case, and I think you would be skeptical as well if the case were reversed. Quite a few people have claimed to have "found" the Lost Dutchman mine, though the actual number of people who found it is VERY small. Of course if you would rather not discuss this with skeptics like me I will understand. Let me make a statement of 'belief' here, which will perhaps remove some of the "skeptic" flavor?

Personally, I am convinced that Jacob Waltz did in fact discover a very rich gold vein in the Superstitions - of the rather rare type known as a "chimney" deposit; these do exist in other places but are fairly rare. He had been prospecting in the area in the 1870s, and by that 'other' version of how he found his mine, there are NO Spaniards, Mexicans, Peraltas or Jesuits involved - he used good old regular prospecting techniques, panning, using a dry washer and sampling until he managed to follow up the tiny bits of gold he found (and "float" quartz) to the ore vein. He got a partner to help him work the mine (Jacob Weiser, also spelled Weisner, Wiser etc) but unfortunately his partner was attacked by Apaches while Waltz was away, when Waltz returned to the mine to find his partner's bloody shirt, and assumed that Weiser had been killed. In fact Weiser had survived the attack and made it out to a ranch, where he later died of his wounds. The ore found under Waltz's death bed is unlike the gold ore from ANY other known source, and as we all know, gold ore is a bit like fingerprints - no two ore veins are exactly alike. Waltz shipped nearly $300,000 in gold, and sold and traded small amounts in Florence, Tortilla Flat, Phoenix and Pinal. Waltz carefully concealed his mine, and even bragged that you could march an Army pack train over it and never see it. I believe that Waltz told Holmes a complete BS line, to mislead the man he considered a sneak, a claim-jumper, a thief who would probably steal the gold under his bed when he was dead. (Remember Holmes did turn up with the gold, claiming it was "given" to him by Waltz though Julia Thomas felt he had stolen it.) I believe that Waltz sincerely liked his friends Julia Thomas and Reiney Petrasch, who had been good to the old man even though they had not known of his rich gold mine, and that Waltz tried to explain to them out to get to the mine, but they did not pay close enough attention or did not understand his directions. It is a more romantic, dramatic tale to include Jesuits, Spaniards, Peraltas, massacres, solid gold bells and statues etc but there is little to nothing to substantiate any of this claim - we don't NEED to resort to Spaniards, Peraltas, murders and massacres when the admittedly less-exciting version (a version which can be substantiated on many points) still is a tale of a fantastically rich lost gold mine. Waltz was accused of many things, including that his mine was nothing but a rich pocket, but he insisted that there was enough gold remaining in the mine, SHOWING, to make millionaires out of twenty men - with gold at $20.67 per ounce! Unfortunately Jacob Waltz never made up any maps to his mine, which has not prevented more than SIXTY treasure maps from showing up, all showing how to get to the mine! (Gee think they are all correct?)

So you see, I am a 'believer' but a believer in what can be substantiated, not in tales with little that can be proven. I have stated this before, and yes those Spaniards were good prospectors - but they could not hold a candle to the Americans who came later! If those Spanish were SO good, how on earth did they NOT discover the fantastically rich gold fields of California, where there were no wild Apaches attacking and harrying them? The Jesuits (and the Franciscans for that matter) had all kinds of secret codes, secret maps etc but there is no record (that I could find) of any kind of Jesuit activity in the Superstition mountains; nor for that matter of any Peraltas in there, or other Mexicans (except one, Perilla, which is another story) in any massacre. So many things in the Superstitions have been mis-interpreted by treasure hunters, such as the "Soldiers Camp" (actually where wood cutting was being done for the Silver King mine, never was a military camp) the concrete dams built by Spanish (actually built by WPA and CCC workers in the Depression years) the aborted roads with wheel ruts (one was intended to be a toll road from Globe to Mesa in the 1880s) the many prospect pits and tunnels dug and blasted out by people hunting for the Lost Dutchman mine (but produced little gold) are thought to be "Mexican" or "Jesuits" or "Spanish" and so on. The Superstitions have a rich history, but some people just are so enamored of Jesuits and Spanish conquistadors legends that they WILL not see what is truly there.

In all treasure hunting we have to wade through the various sources of information, and sort out what to believe and what NOT to believe. In the case of the Lost Dutchman mine, the case is EXTREME - we have had writers embellishing, confabulating and downright lying, mixing in legends and myths from all kinds of sources to what was really a true tale to the point that we have a tremendous load of BS to filter through to find those 'gems' of truth buried within them, almost a "treasure-hunt within a treasure-hunt"!!! Blindbowman, like many others, has decided to lend credence to the Holmes version, and to support the so-called Peralta stones as valid evidence - my reason for debating these sources with you was intended to save you a lot of time and wasted efforts; however if you (or anyone) wants to follow up on the Holmes version and the Peralta stones, more power to you, good luck and good hunting - I hope you find the treasure that you seek. There are other avenues to follow in the search, though a search for the lost mine of Jacob Waltz, not some legendary Peralta mines, Jesuit treasures in the Superstitions etc - avenues which I believe to be a path with considerably greater promise of success.

Oroblanco
 

well said !

i dont beleave that i am being lead anywhere by the stones or the peralta -ruth map .. in fact i only beleave that they are real because i know they point out what i saw in 1979 ...i am not misleeding anyone . am i telling you everything i know, ...NO ...out right No ..

for one after talking with scott for a few weeks i felt it was better to uncover clues than to give them to him with out proveing them frist hand .. thats why he dose not have the photos of the stone house yet and may never have them .....

yes i did use the peralta -ruth map and the stones and did in fact find the face that looks up at his mine and the stone house and the tunnle acrossed from the house

i was shocked no one under staood what finding the trap was about ....lol...

you beleave what you want . i know what, i know ... i know i can pick up a object and see its past .. any object . who touched that object and where it has been in the past .. some times i even do what is called shadow walking . i see vissions of the past history playing like a movie around me when i am in a given area .. you dont want to see what i do .....

if you did you would go insane ....

i dont have to prove anything to anyone ...

i dont need the maps and stones any more ...i am no longer hunting for it ...


it could not hide from me ...

i got to confess i have in joyed watching what others do and say .. remember i have been a recluse for 19 years . i only came out of my shell to go see the dutchman 's gold and look at the tunnle ... i already knew they were there .....

and thats where they will remain ....

you beleave what you want , its alright with me ...

and by the way before this is over i am going to end up in jail till my death .. why because of my photos .....

unlike scott's request i did take photos but i will not be giveing out the location to him as he wanted ... in fact i destoryed the photos that show the out side of the tunnle because i beleave the human race can not respect what is there .....i know they cant . so why test something i already know ...

when i hold a tea part for the apache than and only than will anyone ever under stand what i was doing there ...they can keep it . i dont want it any more i have things to do .....
 

Hey Roy,

I don't remember exactly where I saw it. It was a long time ago. Someone found an old mine shaft that had a heavy wooden, with a heavy wood door sheathed in iron plate. From what I can remember, the mine was found with the door ripped off and laying on the ground. I don't recall any details of whether or not the mine was worth anything. I do remember that the story was convincing enough so that I didn't bother looking at anything else about the Iron Door Mine.

Best,

Mike
 

Thanks Mike!

Blindbowman wrote:
you beleave what you want
OK ;)

i know i can pick up a object and see its past

Quite an extraordinary claim, difficult to prove. If you are experiencing some kinds of visions when holding an object, how can you know the visions are truth?

i dont have to prove anything to anyone ...

Well no, of course not - however you have claimed to have found the Lost Dutchman mine, Tayopa, a church and other discoveries, which the readers want to see proof of. It is your choice whether to prove your statements or not, of course if you choose not to prove your claims it is not reasonable to expect your readers to believe your statements are true.

i dont need the maps and stones any more ...i am no longer hunting for it ...


Huh?????
???
you beleave what you want , its alright with me ...

and by the way before this is over i am going to end up in jail till my death .. why because of my photos .....

OK - but going to jail, till your death? Because of your photos? Huh???? ???

unlike scott's request i did take photos but i will not be giveing out the location to him as he wanted ... in fact i destoryed the photos that show the out side of the tunnle because i beleave the human race can not respect what is there .....i know they cant . so why test something i already know ...

when i hold a tea part for the apache than and only than will anyone ever under stand what i was doing there ...they can keep it . i dont want it any more i have things to do .....

What is it that you think is in the tunnel? Something that the human race cannot respect? Is humanity that incapable in your view? Care to explain? What do you mean by "they can keep it I don't want it any more" ? You are confusing me! ???

Good luck and good hunting.
Oroblanco
 

Oro ...

did you say there was a wagon trail in the superstitions ? the reason i ask is because when we were looking threw our 800fs photos we found a wagon trail going from the tunnle area to a near by mt area . we dont see any reason for this wagon trail . it has two wheel track and a small bridge build over a wash .. i walked right past it and did not notice it . but see it shows up on the photos . the trail dosen go anywhere other than the tunnle to this other area and just vanishes by the looks of it ..

the area is closed off from the rest of the trails and there is no way to get a wagon out of this area . what ever they were doing took place here and only from point A to point B...

it makes no sence to us but it is there and a fact ........we stood ft from this trail and did not see it ....i film 5 or 6 of the mts and we have this wagon trail in about 12 shots

it is a wagon trail what it was used for i dont know ... its old and almost coverd over ...

i walked above it on the rocks and never saw it about 25 ft from me ...we also found a picture of a wolf head on a rock that shows up in the photos ...

i almost forgot . if the dutchman killed the 3 so called peralta and buried them near the hiden camp . we beleave we found the hiden camp and will be looking for those 3 graves as well & the large chache...
 

its not over yet guys . today we were checking back photos with negative imageing and where we beleave we had seen a date on the shevling rock . we found what looks like a cross and the number 81,1 we are not sure what it is yet ... dose 1881... ring any bells ... if we are right that would make the nephew death in january of 1881...

i want to ask a few questions about this date . if this is a date . the dutchman would have retrun home in jan of 1881, he says he retrun to Phoenix,, .. in the dick holmes acount ... if so is there any record of him being in phoenix at that time .. and the other thing i wanted to know is there any record of him selling gold in jan of 1881 .. ..

and yes i know this is like pulling teeth .. but i hope it gets the job done .... there are a few good reasons i ask these questions ...

if if this date of 1881 january than we know he was working the mine at that time ...

one of the reason i ask was when did his partern wiser die ...?

the other thing that gets me is this is 10 years before he own death ...

the other thing if the dick holmes acount is true or parts of it are true than if that started in 1877 that means he only work the mine for 4-5 years at the most, from 1877 to 1881 before killing his nephew and each time he killed someone he returned to phoenix to wait it out to see if anyone got word of it or saw him or missed who was shot or killed .. the reason i say that is look , he says i return the next winter , and he close the mine up the next winter ... so that mean to me that he only worked the mine no more than 5-6 year totally in the winter months ... what year was the flood ?... that would tell us he had been liveing off the small catch no more than 5-7 years at the time of his death ....IMHO

they may explan why some years he showed up on the cenus and other years he did not ...?
 

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