Treasure Trove Permits

HI BERTH AMOR: Ya got it, my picture is so blurry that i was going on imagination as much as anything. I should have remembered my anatomy better, however I do remember female anatomy fairly well, I keep getting reminders in my em sheesh.. sigh.

(ORO don't you just hate smart females??) hehhee gracias gal.

Tropical Tramp

p.s. Two strkes, one more and I will be in my buddy golum's class snicker
 

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i agree and welcome your guys input .. i work for my brother"s P.I company a few years as a profiler and in investagation ..... i look threw hunders of picture and i agree these bones can look diffrent from other angles .. as i see it the boys skull is point toward the rock , as if the dutchman would have not wanted to face what he had done . the other thing is he stated he dragg the boy to the rock . thus most of the blood at the time was lost getting there and why the hole was being dug . thus the lack of blood at the site it self ...

the one bone dose look like a humrous the other i just cant say one way or another . the photos give little definement at the angle they were taken ..... but i am learning as i go and this is the frist time i have had to film this kind of a site ...

if the head was faceing away in the grave site and a touch in a downward angle . the wound would be to about the left back side of the head at almost a stright line from the forhead between the eyes to the left back of the head ,and not to the back of the head in the center ... the other thing is that we do not know how far they were apart at the time he was shot ...we also do not know if the boy was wearing a hat at the time . i can guess he was wearing one because of the heat of the sun ....

the other thing i noted was the diffrence in how tall the dutchman was vs the boy . t6he boy being a little taller yet not knowing where they were standing or at what distence they were apart could change the angle of the shot and its effects on the bone it struck ....

if the boy was walking infront of the dutchman and he hard a click of a hammer of a gun or file he would turn and the angle of the shot would be very close to what we are seeing here if this is what is ...

i can only relate the words of dick holmes acount to the data we are seeing vs what we beleave could be logicially roll played .. they are arguing and the boy tells him he is going to clam the mine and starts to walk away and than hears the clicK of the gun and turns to be somewhat faceing the dutchman down . we dont know if the boy had a gun .. maybe it was self definces ,, maybe the boy's gun is in fact in the grave with him ...?

in fact i will state one other idea i had .. remember the 5 ft long stick i found that was between the starting point and this grave site if thats what it is . what if thats where the boy was shot and the dutchman was dragging the boys body and forgot about the stick the boy was useing as a walking stick ? that wouls explan what the stick was and how it got there ,now if we are to step into the world of unknown logic and missing evidence we can take this one step beyond what we know and do some wild guessing about the data we do know and how it could relate .

my point is if the stick was where the boy was shot and the shot was about 8-10 ft between them . the place where the stick was found vs where the dutchman would have been was about a 1/2 ft higher thus if the boy was 6 ft tall this would have put the line of the shot almost even but behide the boy toward the starting point is a small hill and the shot looks to be a threw and threw , the fact i am makeing is the bulet could be found .. we did not move the stick other than replaceing it after the photo was taken and the photos of the stick could help us replace it to its resting place .. thus what looked like a odd clue could in fact play a roll in the shoting and recovery of the bulet it self ...most bulets in those days were made of lead and it could be found ...

the one site by it self may not make much sence but when a roll play is worked out we can some times see things that we can not see from one point of veiw , this is a good exsample...

the stick was found 100 ft shy of the starting point , makeing the dutchman dragg the boy 125 ft ...down hill , sounds about right for a 70 year old man and a 140-160 lbs body

plus if he had shot the boy and than return to phoenix he would not have wanted to return so soon if he did at all ...if the dutchman already had a walking stick he may have not even noticed the boys was gone after shoting some one i dont think the walking stick would have been frist on his list if it was at all ...
 

HI my friend, forget looking for the bullet, that is an impossible task. You have no way of being reasonably sure where it's primary impact point would lie after exiting from the skull, nor if it ricocheted after that to who knows where. Then again tons of talus may now lie on top it's resting site.

At this point all that you can deduct is the entry and exit and go from there.

Do you have a picture of the skull? I would love to see it for analysis. however mark it copyrighted © so that it remains your's legally from now on.

In windows, The copyright symbol © can be found in start > all programs >accessories, go down to system tools > character map > go to © >click on select > copy > then to insert it, right click > go to paste > left click.

Do this to all of your pictures and posts, including the ones already posted, just click on modify, then put the © on it, this protects them for your book. Luck

Tropical Tamp
i
opical Tramp
 

RealdeTayopa said:
HI my friend, forget looking for the bullet, that is an impossible task. You have no way of being reasonably sure where it's primary impact point would lie after exiting from the skull, nor if it ricocheted after that to who knows where. Then again tons of talus may now lie on top it's resting site.

At this point all that you can deduct is the entry and exit and go from there.

Do you have a picture of the skull? I would love to see it for analysis. however mark it copyrighted © so that it remains your's legally from now on.

In windows, The copyright symbol © can be found in start > all programs >accessories, go down to system tools > character map > go to © >click on select > copy > then to insert it, right click > go to paste > left click.

Do this to all of your pictures and posts, including the ones already posted, just click on modify, then put the © on it, this protects them for your book. Luck

Tropical Tamp
i
opical Tramp
Click to expand...
there is no ( character map) in my system tools in windows Xp ,where could it be found in windows XP ..

and if i could dig up this site i would hope to find the skull frist ....
 

RealdeTayopa said:
however I do remember female anatomy fairly well, I keep getting reminders in my em sheesh.. sigh.
two strkes, one more and I will be in my buddy golum's class snicker
Click to expand...

You are getting those emails as well? I get those, and the ones offering me the opportunity to increase my breast size. I guess if I spent more time alone in the desert, I might take them up on their offer. ;D ;D ;D

Since when does three strikes allow a person to advance in class? ;D ;D

Best,

Mike
 

Greetings Friends,

Tropical Tramp wrote: ORO don't you just hate smart females?

NO heck where would I be if I didn't manage to find one! ;D I'd sooner have a smart female around than a smart-arsed one any day! ;)

Blindbowman I have to ask you, why you choose to put any faith in the Holmes version of the Dutchman's history? Lets think about this a moment. Dick Holmes was a tracker, known to Waltz in person well before his deathbed. He had in fact caught Holmes tracking him to the mine on one occasion, in which Holmes reported that he saw Waltz setting up ahead of him with his rifle sights directly on Holmes, so Holmes decided to quit following him. The next time Waltz met Holmes in town, he told Holmes that if he caught him tracking him again, he would kill him. No one doubted that he would.

This is some idea of how Waltz viewed Holmes - a tracker, a sneak, a claim-jumper! A man he directly threated to KILL if he caught him again! NOT a man that he viewed as any kind of FRIEND but the complete opposite. So we have a possible motive for Waltz telling Holmes a pack of lies, intended to throw him off the track.

Next if we examine some of the points of fact, we find the Holmes version to be problematic. For one, there is no record of Jacob Waltz having a nephew at all; did he have a partner, yes - his name was also Jacob, but last name Weiser (also spelled Wiser and several other ways) a man who was only a few years younger than Waltz, not a young teenager. Waltz tells Holmes about killing a whole pack of people, including some Mexicans (presumed "Peraltas") who "he thought were Apaches working his mine" - hmm well how many Apaches do we know of that were out working in gold mines? Not impossible, but certainly unlikely. We also know that Weiser was in fact attacked by Apaches and survived long enough to make it to a ranch where he later died of his wounds - not murdered by Waltz. Waltz tells Holmes two absolute LIES too, that we can PROVE - he said he was "not a citizen of the United States" and "had no intention of becoming one" as the reasons why he never filed his claim. Well we know for a fact that Waltz was a naturalized citizen of the United States, and had been one for quite some years by the time of his death.

So how much faith should we give to the Holmes account, which includes a whole colony of Mexicans in the tale, including sheep, cattle, women and children who all died in the infamous Peralta massacre except for one or two survivors. We know that Waltz certainly considered Holmes to be a claim-jumper and a sneak thief, and probably saw Holmes hovering around his death bed waiting for his chance to steal the remaining gold ore beneath his bed, as well as to learn the secret of the location of his gold mine. We know that Waltz did in fact try to explain to his friends (yes friends!) Julia Thomas and Reinhardt "Reiny" Petrasch, even tried to take them to the mine once but his health failed him. It seems a logical conclusion that Waltz told Holmes a complete fantasy tale, perhaps knowing that his last gold would be stolen by Holmes (Holmes in fact took the gold, telling everyone that Waltz had "given it to him") but Jacob would have the last and best laugh!

Given this consideration, it seems unlikely that any human remains found in the Superstitions would prove to be a murdered nephew of Jacob Waltz; we know that literally hundreds of people have died in those beautiful and dangerous mountains; the odds are that any human remains found are likely to be some unlucky Dutch-hunter or hiker, perhaps even a murder victim. I don't think we can tell from the photos whether these bones are in fact human or some other animal, unless of course a skull were seen as well. I don't know if human blood or other bodily fluids would leave a stain on stone exposed to the elements either - stains in the rock are more likely mineral stains.

With treasure hunting we need to keep our pants on, particularly when a discovery of some kind of evidence is made. It is all-too-easy to make an assumption that something which COULD be evidence that "fits" with a theory or legend, MUST then be exactly that. I am not immune to over-optimism (I remember once finding an old buried "chest" that made my heart leap, only to find it was a buried COUCH! :D ;D) it is best to keep an open mind and a bit of a skeptical eye to all discoveries. I am not saying that what Blindbowman has found cannot be the nephew of Jacob Waltz, and the Holmes version thus proven true, only that it seems logical that the Holmes version is false and we cannot tell what the bones came from, just by looking at the photos. It is an interesting find, I hope that Blindbowman will keep us informed as to what this proves to be.

Oroblanco
 

Absolutely right Oro,

Any blood left anywhere in the open would attract ants, flies, and other insects that would remove it pretty handily in a fairly short time.

Best,

Mike
 

i agree ... the evidences is unexplan at this point i only offer IMHO what i see and know from my research point of veiw . so let me put in place my prospective for you all ..frist off Oro makes some good points . to the argument if i was looking where most everyone else is . but i am not . in fact i am some 3-4 miles away from the main area ....

and i agree with you Oro in most cases i would think the same of dick holmes acount . but one fact remains it may not fit what others under stand the facts to be yet my locations fit the facts of all known acounts ... even dick holmes but i say this with a few good reason . for i have out right prove that part of that state is in fact true ... as i have stated maybe it was stated and few under stood my statement . so let me clear that matter frist . the starting point , we will call point starting point (A) is real and dose in fact fit the statement to the word ...Jim Floyd agreed and even gave us a statement to this effect as prof . and all of what we are doing is in relation to this data ...
if what the dutchman had told dick holmes was not true than the fact of this statement would not be true to the sites it self . but they are true .. this leeds me to beleave one thing wich i already learn from my own research . that the dutchman gave parts of the location to 3 diffrent people and this related to the peralta -ruth map and the peralta stones .. and last but not lest my own eye sighting of the what i beleave was the mine ...

i agree the last person we would think he would have gave true clues to is dick holmes . that tells me i am right ....what better way to get even with dick holmes than give him true clues but not enough to find the mine it self ... lol . worked great dick holmes spent his life looking and found nothing .. just what the dutchman knew he would ...

this all goes back to the eye sighting . i saw what i saw and nothing could change that yet when i look at the other clues in the legend i can see how they fit the story . and no one person had enough to find the mine IMHO ...

the other fact that stands out is , that even changeing my site 3 and adding sites 4 and 5 , i note that they are in line as the peralta _ruth map shows them and the dick holmes states are true to the LDM and the Julia Thomas and Reinhardt "Reiny" Petrasch, acounts as well ... i hold alot of trust in the dick holmes acount for a few good reason . one i have proven a few of the statements out right true to my sites and ....and if you note the dutchman never gives him a starting point .....i only learned it because of my own eye sighting .......

and what we found was a cave at one site and than from that site we could see the stone house in clear veiw ....

when i have my permits i will post the picture of the stone house here at the site ,...

and i know dick holmes had no chance of finding the mine with what the dutchman told him ...

my next trip will in fact cover the site 3 and 4 and 5 . if i had more people to help cover these sites the work would get done faster but we all know where that got me .


but note this we did in fact take photos of the hole area of site 4 and 5 . .. only the true facts and the evidence will speak when this is all done ..

and under stand my logic no one else is hunting where i am for the reasons i am . and they have found very little why i am finding evidence i did not even know was there or in the area ,, i did think i could find the grave site if thats what it turns out to be , but if i am right than bones is not all i will find .. we felt site 1and 2 would give us some kind of evidence and they have ....

what they turn out to be will take time and hard work .. yet i am biting my nails waiting for the 800fs photos ....

and yes i do agree . evidence can be one of 3 things . related . unrelated . and proven ...

and the grave sight is under the rock shevle and not open fully to the weather ... and even if ants found the site the stains would remain on the rock if not washed away by the weather ...the stains in the heat could have been baked to the rock it self ...we do not have any test in place that could prove ether way ...

and yes i always keep a open mind , but i also beleave the person that will find the real sites will be looking beyond what they can eye with the naked eye ....
 

[SWR link=.. Simply adding the copyright symbol does not automatically register you for copyright ownership and/or protection.You can obtain the proper forms to copyright protect you pictures via the internet @ www.copyright.gov/forms
*********************
I agree in essence SWR, but the copyright law now states that you own the rights of an intellectual property at the moment of putting it down in written or intelligible form. The Internet qualifies for that. By adding the © on each page or picture, you indicate your specific ownership of it and establishes a legal date if any contest or infringement problems arise. This goes for published as well as unpublished materiel. Of course the big gun of copyright protection is to register it with the US Government as you suggest, this is especially important for internationally published works. This establishes an unequvocal date.

In the case of Bowman and myself, by simply © it we are establishing a prior right and date. Later of course, if it is published, the book etc. would be registered.


Tropical Tramp
Tropical Tamp
 

Sheesh:BETH I answered SWR as soon as I scrolled down to include his post, only to later find that you already had.

Keep this impressive work up and I will trade my cute mule to ORO for you, maybe even throw in two Hudson Bay 3 1/2 stripped (Beaver Pelt) blankets and a cast iron Dutch Oven. Of course you have to agree to not to try to runaway.

Tropical Tramp
 

RealdeTayopa said:
Sheesh: I answered SWR as soon as I scrolled down to include his post, only to later find that you already had.

Keep this impressive work up and I will trade my cute mule to ORO for you, maybe even throw in two Hudson Bay 3 1/2 stripped (Beaver Pelt) blankets and a cast iron Dutch Oven. Of course you have to agree to not to try to runaway.

Tropical Tramp
Click to expand...

She will be more expensive though. I bet she eats more than toilet paper! ;D ;D ;D

Best,

Mike
 

Oro i was thinking about what you said about the nephew ... and this goes to the value of this find . if it is proven that it is the nephew , not only dose it become valueable evidence in the find it self . but it also tells us the dutchman was telling dick holmes the truth at the time ... and veinacates my research as well ....

even thuo i stated we did not find evidence at site 2 or 3 . we did find evidence at site 1 and we know for fact we have found evidence at site 4 ....if the stone house we have found is the real stone house .. remember what the dutchman stated to dick holmes about the mine .. " you will never be able to find the mine until you frist find the rock house" i under stand why he said it like this ....and i agree , no one could find this mine with out finding the stone house frist .

so that would make 4 or 5 statements that he made to dick holmes out right true with respect to my research and what evidence we have found so far ...

besides that Marcos de Niza's journey north i beleave was in code and the cibola on that map was relocated by KIno....
 

Bowman: DON"T forget to print the © on any data or pictures that you post in here with details on the Lost Dutchman project! This way you can download it to your files to prove that YOU originated it years from now. It is very simple to do, and failry important if you want the credit..

Tropical Tramp
 

RealdeTayopa said:
Bowman: DON"T forget to print the © on any data or pictures that you post in here with details on the Lost Dutchman project! This way you can download it to your files to prove that YOU originated it years from now. It is very simple to do, and failry important if you want the credit..

Tropical Tramp
Click to expand...
i have not found the character map or list in my systems tools ,, maybe the kids deleted it ..lol
 

i agree 100% and even so i have what could now be a grave site for the nephew and what could be the real stone house . i did not have them before . so i got to go with my gut reaction .. it looks like the truth with the under standing of what i alreay know ,so i will go with it for now and see if this stone house pans out ...the other thing is if my eye sight was the LDM than the dick Holmes acount is true yet i see that the dutchman left him hanging with so much info and no where to start ....

but yes i do see your logic . but from what i am seeing this is not the case here ....


and i played spin the bottle with the gals ...lol
 

Geeze Gollum, no-one has seen it to take my offer to ORO seriously sniff. Do you suppose that if I Ihrow in a well used Dutchman map , and one of the Adams diggings also that it might help? Tayopa's "X"'s are out !

As for your question on the three strikes, where else would a disgraced USAF Gentleman go if not downwards to the Army special services - a-la-Gollum?? Similar to the old French Foreign Legion.

TRopical Tramp

p.s.. Bowman I still do !
 

i agree Oro , now thing if he was lieing about the being a citizen at that point and we now he was a citizen than we kow he was in fact telling the truth about some things and not others .. and thats just my point i am trying to make ... think about what i just stated , if this was the nephews grave than he lies about the citizenship than tells the truth about the nephew .. proveing my point ... and even i am confused when he talks about the hideout, stateing hiden camp or hide out is almost the same game as stone or rock ... if i listed what i beleave is true in this acount only about 1/3 would be true ... and about 1/3 of it is out of order ....one sentences stands out to me ! it tells me the tunnle is the real mine ...the other pit is missleeding at best ...i have yet to look at the stone house in close range to see if it is missleeding or not ... i guess the best 2 out of 3 , and i have all 3 located , not where i thaught they were but all 3 ....© the blindbowman
 

Jose,

I was in the Navy as well, don't forget!

I think you have the Scales of Military Evolution Reversed! I was told that if I failed the ASVAB Test, the only job in the military I would be qualified for is Air Force Chief of Staff! ;D ;D ;D

One day, the Secretary of the Army, the Secretary of the Air Force, Commandant of the Marine Corps, and the Secretary of the Navy were playing golf, and got into an argument about whose command had the bravest people. They decided to visit various installations to get the answer.

First, they went to an Air Force Base. The Sec. of the AF spotted an airman standing in front of a running f-15 fighter. The General ordered the airman to leap into the running turbine. The Airman replied "Yes Sir!" and jumped into the jet engine to his death. Everyone agreed, that was a very brave man.

Next, they went to a Navy Base, where the Admiral spotted a sailor neaqr the top of a ship's mast. He yelled to the sailor to jump down to the pier. The sailor replied, "Aye Aye, Sir!" and jumped the 150 feet to his death. They al;l agreed that was very brave indeed.

Next, they went to a Marine Base, where the Commandant saw a young Marine in training. The General ordered the young Marine to bayonette himself! The Marine responded with, Hoooaaaaah Sir!" and shoved the bayonette into his own chest, killing himself. Everyone agreed that was the bravest thing they had seen yet!

Lastly, they went to an Army Base, where the General saw some Rangers training alongside a tank battalion. The General ordered a Ranger to dive under an oncoming tank. The Ranger replied by flipping the General the "Bird" and saying "F*** YOU, Sir!" They all agreed that the Army Ranger was the bravest of the bunch!


Best,

Mike
 

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