Treasure Trove Permits

[cactusjumper]

Bill,

I believe Gideon was something of a Gypsy, and perhaps the black sheep of the family.

The Roberts family history has been well kept by the ancestors. Aurum is someone who knows the history quite well. I would suggest a personal message, if you are interested.

In the past, Aurum has been very generous with his knowledge and it encompasses a wide range of subjects......especially concerning the Superstitions, as well as Arizona/Phoenix history. His personal, life long, history with the Apache Indians is probably the best to be found, outside tribal historians.

Good luck, and good hunting,

Joe Ribaudo

 

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[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

HI Peeps & Scott: This is a fascinating bit of reading and revelation. This is an excerpt from an article by Michael Bernette. Makes one wonder -----!

Don Jose de La Mancha
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

http://uwex.us/


It should also be pointed out that those grave-robbing claims were silent when the turret of the U.S.S. Monitor was recovered and when the Confederate Navy submarine C.S.S. Hunley was raised – both of which contained human remains. Wreck divers no longer recover human skulls and place them in dive shop windows or curio cabinets, just as archaeologists no longer haphazardly recover artifacts from Egyptian tombs and marine biologists and geologists no longer utilize explosives to take samples from coral reefs. While there are very isolated instances of divers dredging out U-boats that contain human remains in order to recover artifacts, that practice is largely condemned within the diving community. Furthermore, as pointed out earlier, that practice is illegal.

One could point out that archaeological projects such as the Monitor and Hunley recover artifacts for the public good. Information is dispersed and artifacts are put on public display, whereas wreck divers hide away their artifacts so the public cannot enjoy them. What the general public does not recognize is the fact that the vast majority of archaeological artifacts recovered are boxed up and housed in vast repositories rather than put on display. Further, many agencies and universities are confronting a “curation crisis,” as in some cases they do not have the space or economic resources to house millions of artifacts; in 1997 the Smithsonian Institution alone housed over 140 million items, of which 122 million were natural history objects. An article that appeared in Federal Archaeology cited that 30 percent of non-federal facilities have already run out of room to store or exhibit archaeological objects. Space is not the only issue, as conserved objects must be maintained under specific environmental conditions to insure their preservation. As documented in an American Archaeology article, proper climate-controlled storage appeared to be the exception, rather than the rule. After visiting three universities that stored artifacts from federal lands, a National Park Service archaeologist reported that, “In 99.9 percent of the cases, I felt the storage conditions were substandard." The worst example was described thusly: "The collections were in a storage room where overhead pipes leaked onto the artifacts that were in paper bags. The provenience information written on the bags in pencil was unreadable. All the metal artifacts were rusted. All the bone had turned to mush."

 

[the blindbowman]

so the jesuit treaure trove could be saver where it is now...?

 

[dustcap]

MesaB
Not on this site often and just saw your Reply #231 #232 on: January 12, 2007. The photos you posted were taken over by Geronimo head just before you go over the ridge toward Fish Creek Canyon. Some old prospectors believed the red rock was a sign of something. They built a house there in the rocks. Some of the makeshift walls are still there as is the foundation part of some others (including concrete, if my memory is correct, where the screening was). I was told that the Indians used the red rock to make paint. Take it for what it's worth, I wasn't there when all this supposedly took place.

Look just north of there on the next hillside (separated by a wash about fifteen to twenty feet deep at that point) and you will find old iron parts used for mining/crushing ore. The iron parts are in a depression about 8 to 12 feet deep (never thought I would need to remember that part) that may or may not have been dug to hide the equipment. I would have brought some (one piece) out but they are way too heavy to carry with my other gear. If I spend some time maybe I can find some of the pictures I took there in 2004.
-Ken C

 

[dustcap]

It looks like I stand corrected. With a little wider angle and background in these pictures, Yes, that is the area I remembered from a few years ago. "The Paint Mine" as you call it. Didn't remember the "hole" being that shallow and RED as well. I only wanted to be gone at the time because someone was using the "hole" as a campsite (for whatever), complete with sleeping bag and I don't take kindly to getting shot at.

 

[Oroblanco]

Greetings friends,

Just one thing for consideration, for those who look to the Holmes manuscript for clues to find the LDM. When judging truth, it sometimes pays to compare words with actions. According to the Holmes manuscript, the very first landmark one is to head for (from the deathbed 'confession') is First Water. Hmm, then why is that Dick Holmes immediately set off to Hidden Water, and not First Water, the moment that Waltz was dead? See what I mean? Just my own opinion here, but I would NOT consider the Holmes version to be useful in locating the LDM in any way. Remember, this was a set of instructions given by Waltz to a man he had threatened to KILL if he caught him trying to follow him again - so why should he tell such a man exactly how to get his greatest treasure? Would YOU tell someone you considered a claim-jumper, bushwhacker and sneak, exactly how to get YOUR treasures, on your deathbed? So why would Jacob have done so. Use your own logic, but consider all the angles before leaping.

Good luck and good hunting to you, hope you find the treasures that you seek.

Oroblanco

 

[cactusjumper]

Oro,

It turns out that a great deal of the Holmes information was true. I doubt very much that any of that information came directly from Jacob Waltz.......to Dick Holmes.

When Brownie Holmes finally decided to make a systematic search of the Superstitions, he started on the main mountain and worked his way east from there. Don't believe he had a clue where the mine was, other than information/stories which must have been rampant in every corner of Arizona.

He had no idea what was truth and what was fiction.

Joe Ribaudo

 

[Oroblanco]

Greetings friends Cactusjumper and Blindbowman and everyone,

Joe R wrote:

When Brownie Holmes finally decided to make a systematic search of the Superstitions, he started on the main mountain and worked his way east from there. Don't believe he had a clue where the mine was, other than information/stories which must have been rampant in every corner of Arizona.

He had no idea what was truth and what was fiction

I have no reason to doubt your conclusions re: Brownie, and certainly did not intend to cast aspersions on Brownie. I have never met the man, but friends of mine who have, had nothing but nice things to say about him. I don't suspect that Brownie has intentionally misled anyone. In fact, when he says that Dick told him verbatim, I tend to believe him, however in this case the falsehoods originated with Waltz, and not with either Brownie or Dick. If this theory is correct, both Dick and Brownie are victims of Jacob Waltz's deception, and this is my opinion.

Blindbowman - you could be right - the only way to find out is to test the theory in the Superstitions on the ground. Chasing down legends is not for the faint of heart, it takes a lot of faith, belief and self confidence - and there are legends which have been proven before. One must also be willing to face the possibility that it could be wrong. However in any search, even finding nothing is making progress, as one can then rule out an area or some clue. Jacob Waltz mentioned a number of clues, to various persons; most are vague enough that they could "fit" with several locations. I very much doubt that all of the clues attributed to Waltz are actually from him, but a select few are very important because they can be 'confirmed' to some extent through other sources.

"Reiny, you better listen! That mine is hard to find, even when you know where it is!" (Jacob Waltz to his friend Reiny Petrasch)

"The mine is in the most god-awful place you ever saw!" (Joe Deering)

Other clues such as being able to see the old Military trail from the mine, but not the mine from the trail, or having to pass a "cow barn" on the trail, are not too helpful either. Even if you can positively identify which old Military trail was being referred to, you would then have to search every possible area that could view that trail at any point! Some folks have taken the clue about the "pointed peak" to mean it must be referring to Four Peaks, but in fact there are no less than a half dozen pointed peaks in the region!

Blindbowman wrote:

let me make it a little more fun ...

" there is many clues to the mines location ,and many maps .... yet , something is wrong with one of them ,what dose not fit the legend ,what is wrong and why ? "

simple questions, with a very complex answer ...

I would propose that there is some detail wrong with many of the legends and maps, in some cases rather drastic errors, in others, perhaps innocent mistakes. I agree, this question requires a very complicated answer to even attempt to cover all.

Mrs Oro and I are in the process of packing to move out of AZ for some time, and have not had the time (recently) to read all the new posts much less contribute much in the way of input here in T-net. I had pretty well decided not to ever bother wasting more time and effort on another search for Waltz's lost mine, but when we return I just might take one more hike. IF I were to do so, I would not be working off any set of clues or directions, nor any maps (be they stone, paper, parchment, leather etc) but by a very old and reliable method, the same method used by Waltz, according to people who knew him in Florence before he discovered the mine and shortly afterward, during which time the location was supposedly "no great secret".

Good luck and good hunting to you, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.

your friend,
Roy ~ Oroblanco

 

[cactusjumper]

Oro,

I doubt there is a published Dutch Hunter in history that has given us the whole truth.......
as they know it. That would include, of course, Brownie Holmes.

Now Brownie stated that his father never lied to him, and he never lied to....... That may very well be true, but........Brownie stated that Jacob Waltz gave his father the gold from under his bed.

That could have been true, but odds are it's not. If not true, either Dick lied to Brownie or Brownie, knowing the truth, lied. Take your pick. There are people of impeccable character, alive today, who knew Brownie very well. I have heard they trusted him completely.

I doubt Jacob Waltz told Dick Holmes anything......at all. He was in such bad shape that Julia knew he was close to death. It is unlikely that he could have told anyone such a long and detailed story. My guess would be that he was drowning in his own fluid and semiconscious.

All of the above is opinion, based on 48 years of casual research. Others have spent a great deal more time on the LDM legend than I have.

Take care,

Joe

 

[the blindbowman]

i know who, where ,why ,when and how the treasure got there ...

game ,set ,match ...

 

[Oroblanco]

Blindbowman wrote:

game ,set ,match ...

Okay I'll bite;

Who put the treasure there?

What was the treasure referred to?

When was the treasure hidden?

How was the treasure transported to the site?

Lastly and most importantly, where is the treasure hidden?

Friend Blindbowman, the statement you have made is of the type that will surely get people excited and who then want "proof" to back up the statements. I hope you are not simply toying with us poor treasure-hunters for amusement....


Cactusjumper wrote:

I doubt Jacob Waltz told Dick Holmes anything......at all.

Greetings friend Joe; your conclusion seems quite reasonable, based on the rapidly deteriorating health of Waltz and imminent death. Just how much talking could a man literally dying of pneumonia do? If Waltz told Holmes nothing on his deathbed, (and like you pointed out, this seems logical and reasonable) then Holmes' information originated elsewhere. We know that Holmes did in fact attempt to trail Waltz to the mine site on at least one occasion, and several of the "clues" in the Holmes manuscript can be found among the statements of bar-room folk of Phoenix. These statements (like going to First Water for example) MIGHT have originated with Waltz, in which case it could easily have been the sort of thing he told fellows at the saloon, almost in a 'teasing' way. Dick Holmes could have picked up some or all of his 'clues' from such sources, then put them together with the portion of trail that he knew from following Waltz in person, and we end up with the Holmes manuscript. It is just my opinion but I do not put faith in the Holmes manuscript, for the reasons we have discussed earlier, plus the fact that Dick and Brownie followed their own 'clues' (probably including information NOT included in the Holmes manuscript) for many years without success.

For anyone who desires to follow out the clues in the Holmes manuscript, I sure wish you good luck and good hunting; you are sure to get some good exercise, see some of the most beautiful country in the USA, and most likely have a great time doing it. Many, many others already have done just this procedure, and have failed to locate Waltz's mine, but who knows? Maybe you will be the 'lucky' one, or perhaps the 'unlucky' one? As I mentioned earlier, personally I would not rely on the Holmes manuscript for any good info on finding that lost mine - and for that matter the bits of info passed on to Julia and Reiney (those bits we are aware of today, doubtless there were other tidbits not known publicly) are hardly of much more help - for in this case we may have less doubts as to whether Waltz would have deliberately misled his friends, but the "clues" are vague enough to make them almost useless. I think a treasure hunter is in a way 'hamstringing' himself by trying to stick to clues for the Lost Dutchman Mine, as these clues have not been helpful to the hundreds of thousands of people who have searched for it.

I too have been lured by the siren-song of "clues" to find the LDM, only to get a lot of exercise and great scenery but little in the way of gold out of the time, efforts and expense. If one looks at this in a different way, there is a different way to find the mine - and my money goes on this 'alternate' method as the way it will be found. What 'alternate' way, a casual reader might well ask? Good old prospecting techniques, the very way a great number of mines have been located over the centuries....however this is a most tedious and time-consuming task, and requires great patience and diligence to be successful.

Good luck and good hunting to you friends, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.

your friend,
Roy ~ Oroblanco

 

[the blindbowman]

Blindbowman wrote:

game ,set ,match ...

Okay I'll bite;

Who put the treasure there? the Templar knights , your proff ,remove the hat and hair from the templar priest on the priest stone ,you are now looking at a templar priest staped with his own sword that looks like a cross the cross of the chruch that has betrayed the templars ...this stone is not a stone at all it is in fact a peice of a stone tablet from the temple mount .have it tested i will wait ...lol

What was the treasure referred to? it is called the treasure of the temple mount or the treasure of christ !

When was the treasure hidden? around the years of 1307

How was the treasure transported to the site? in a vast fleet of templar ships that sailed by the way of the Azores at Ponta Delgeda , Remedios

Lastly and most importantly, where is the treasure hidden? LOl.... i am working on a full legal clam ...but look at this .


do you remember this statement from the jim haydock story of the lost jesuit treasure of the tayopa treasure list ,


,"Two silver chalices from the Jesus Maria y Jose Mine, and twelve solid gold cups. Six gold plates made from the Jesus Maria y Jose Mine, and twelve solid gold cups. Six gold plates made from Cristo Mine and Purisima Mine, and two large communion plates of gold made from placer El Paramo"

let me translate it for you !

2 silver chalices
12 solid gold cups
6 gold plates from jesus maria
12 solid gold cups
6 gold plates from cristo
2 large communion plates of gold


what you are looking at is the place seting for the last super table ...


you dont have to beleive me , but the name Cristo in latin means Christ and the name maria means Mary ..

if you look the name is Jesus maria .. not his mother maria....christ and his wife were at the last super ,, here is your prove ...i have found the treasure and it is not spainish, jesuit or fransican...




Friend Blindbowman, the statement you have made is of the type that will surely get people excited and who then want "proof" to back up the statements. I hope you are not simply toying with us poor treasure-hunters for amusement....


Cactusjumper wrote:

I doubt Jacob Waltz told Dick Holmes anything......at all.

Greetings friend Joe; your conclusion seems quite reasonable, based on the rapidly deteriorating health of Waltz and imminent death. Just how much talking could a man literally dying of pneumonia do? If Waltz told Holmes nothing on his deathbed, (and like you pointed out, this seems logical and reasonable) then Holmes' information originated elsewhere. We know that Holmes did in fact attempt to trail Waltz to the mine site on at least one occasion, and several of the "clues" in the Holmes manuscript can be found among the statements of bar-room folk of Phoenix. These statements (like going to First Water for example) MIGHT have originated with Waltz, in which case it could easily have been the sort of thing he told fellows at the saloon, almost in a 'teasing' way. Dick Holmes could have picked up some or all of his 'clues' from such sources, then put them together with the portion of trail that he knew from following Waltz in person, and we end up with the Holmes manuscript. It is just my opinion but I do not put faith in the Holmes manuscript, for the reasons we have discussed earlier, plus the fact that Dick and Brownie followed their own 'clues' (probably including information NOT included in the Holmes manuscript) for many years without success.

For anyone who desires to follow out the clues in the Holmes manuscript, I sure wish you good luck and good hunting; you are sure to get some good exercise, see some of the most beautiful country in the USA, and most likely have a great time doing it. Many, many others already have done just this procedure, and have failed to locate Waltz's mine, but who knows? Maybe you will be the 'lucky' one, or perhaps the 'unlucky' one? As I mentioned earlier, personally I would not rely on the Holmes manuscript for any good info on finding that lost mine - and for that matter the bits of info passed on to Julia and Reiney (those bits we are aware of today, doubtless there were other tidbits not known publicly) are hardly of much more help - for in this case we may have less doubts as to whether Waltz would have deliberately misled his friends, but the "clues" are vague enough to make them almost useless. I think a treasure hunter is in a way 'hamstringing' himself by trying to stick to clues for the Lost Dutchman Mine, as these clues have not been helpful to the hundreds of thousands of people who have searched for it.

I too have been lured by the siren-song of "clues" to find the LDM, only to get a lot of exercise and great scenery but little in the way of gold out of the time, efforts and expense. If one looks at this in a different way, there is a different way to find the mine - and my money goes on this 'alternate' method as the way it will be found. What 'alternate' way, a casual reader might well ask? Good old prospecting techniques, the very way a great number of mines have been located over the centuries....however this is a most tedious and time-consuming task, and requires great patience and diligence to be successful.

Good luck and good hunting to you friends, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.

your friend,
Roy ~ Oroblanco

 

[the blindbowman]

now can i reset the table ....?


are you amused yet...?

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

HI BB: For your general information the Tayopa canyon complex produced Silver basically, the Paramo mines gold.

There are 14 mines in the Tayopa complex, 4 in the Paramo.

The locked metal door is in the Tayopa complex. This is what we were looking for when my associate had his fatal heart attack last week.

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[the blindbowman]

i only beleive the jesuits sent the list in the hope they could clam the treasure if it was found . it is not a jesuit treasure lol

i have no idea of what you found i know what i found ... untill i find the bells i wont know more then this is a templar site ...

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

BB:

i only beleive the jesuits sent the list in the hope they could clam the treasure if it was found . it is not a jesuit treasure lol
~~~~~~~~~~~~

Wrong on Tayopa, it was/is a Jesuit treasure site. It spans 150 years, two separate epochs, but I will not go into details here.

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[the blindbowman]

that treasure tayopa list is in the tunnel i found , so i dont have any idea of whats in your wallet ! lol

in 1959 a man saw the statue at the mouth of the tunnel i found and i know the statue is still there ...


the priest stone is templar and they are the only ones that could have put the templar treasure in the tunnel . if the tayopa list treasure that could only be from the temple mount .. it could no way be in the tayopa mine unless the tunnel i found is the real tayopa . or your list would not list the statue at the mouth of the tunnel as we know for a fact it is ...

we recoverd the tunnel site no one well find it on their own ...

i dont know what you have found . only time can tell but i know what i found ....and who put it there and when and why and where and what ...

so let me know when you make your find and i will let you know after expedition 3 what i have found ... i am not looking for a mine .....

i know where the LDM is .

i hope you find something even if its not the tayopa . i dont care what you call the tunnel i found its what is in it that means something ,.....

 

[the blindbowman]

Sorry to hear about your associate Jose

BB,
Who's to say it isn't Jesuit? Maybe they're hiding the treasure of the last supper, in Tayopa, which btw is in Mexico not Arizona...

i saw a statue of a templar holding a sword at the mouth of the tunnel . unless the jesuits had a templars statue . plus the so called peralta stones are not jesuit they are templar ! i can out right prove that ...

 

[the blindbowman]

no i shined a flash light in the mouth of it i could only see about 30 ft in and the statue is about 20 back from the mouth of the cave , with no gun or back up lighting we would not risk it...

thats why i am going on expedition 3 ...

the piont i am trying to make is this tunnel has nothing to do with the tayopa other then that tayopa treasure list ....on less the tayopa was made by the templar ...

see my piont .. the stones match the tunnel site and the templars had taken a treasure from the temple mount that could very well match that list . no one ever figerd that out before till now .. this explans the stone tablets and the priest on them and what the tayopa list means . i have know idea what real de tayopa has found and out of respect i can only wait to see . but . i know out right what i have found and i am collecting evidence as i research the new data i keep finding more of the puzzle...




look at it from my piont of veiw . the tayopa masscre acount matched the tunnle as much as the legend and the new evidence dose ...

real de tayopa has found something . but the treasure list and the other masscre acount fit the tunnel as well as the templar time line and the treasure of the list matches the teasure of the temple mount taken by the templar not the jesuits . the site i found i out right beleive is a templar site

i am not trying to defind the tayopa . i was only relateing it to see if its legends fits the LDM legend and this tunnel site . the fact remains this tunnel site is the hideing place of the templar knights and the treasure of christ if i am riight ...


i have no idea if anything else well be found that relates to the tayopa in side the tunnel ..

but the gonzales& ruth map the stones and the dirrection fit the tunnel site 100% and now so dose the treasure list no matter how it got that way ...


look at this way so one went to one hell of a lot of work to hide this and as far as i could tell it was 1500 or older . now i know for a fact its 1307 or earler and its out right templar ....


there is only one templar treasure that wears the names christ and mary ...i can only come to the conclusion from the evidence i see as of now .. this tunnel must be one of the 3 tayopa mines ,, how could the treasure match what should be in the temple mount treasure . there is only one logical way it could .... if the priest stone is real and at this piont i have evidence that pionts to the logical that it is real . then the tayopa mines could have been in a way bigger area then anyone knew ...


or someone made a few decoys .. all know is they went to a lot to hide this tunnel ..


i say the treasure list was to hide the true details of the treasure . yet the fact remains the templar pirest is on the priest stone ...


all of the evidence pionts to one place ,,, i can prove that is true of what i found .. i have no idea what real de tayopa found ... thats the best place to leave it till after expedition 3 unless i find more related data that helps subport my findings ...

but till know no one knew about the templars at all ...

yet the stones dont lie ...


look at the horse stone , the templars had two riders on their horse . this one has none . yet the hourse is there ...


look at the math del . it is a up side down triangle just like the one on the heart stone .... i am not wrong! " they are not prealta stiones . they are in fact templar stones made from peices of the tablets found in the temple mount treasure , the priest on the stone wears a templar cross on his arm , jesuits did not wear the cross showing ...they wear all black or brown robes
and they did not carrie swords that i know of ...

 

[Oroblanco]

Greetings Blindbowman and everyone,

Tropical Tramp, as I mentioned in another thread, my condolences on the loss of your friend. There is a bright side to his passing, however - at least he died doing something he loved. (I presume he loved treasure hunting or he would not have been there by your side.) So many people die without ever having known the reward of pursuing a dream.

Blindbowman - now you have a very different theory as to what you found from your earlier posts. A few points (among many) are in order, for one, it seems very unlikely that the original Tayopa was found or worked by any Templars, since the discovery of Tayopa post-dates the destruction of the Templars organization by nearly two centuries. Time-line problem with that possibility.

Then there is the problem of proving that Templars were even aware that the American continents existed, much less had a fleet of treasure ships to send across the Atlantic. As you well know, the period during which the Templars were operating is known as the "Dark Ages" or Medeival period - and most Europeans were not even aware that the world was a sphere. Seafaring abilities were not on a par even with the late Romans, (excepting the Norse) and most sailing was done along coastlines within sight of shore. This led to historians of today claiming that this coast-hugging was always the case prior to the late 1400s, which is false - but during the period you are claiming that the Templars sailed to America with the table settings of the Last Supper is not a time period when European navigation was skilled, nor ships being notably seaworthy. Arab ships of the period were quite capable of reaching America however.

Then there is the problem of the Last Supper table setting. Do you believe that Jesus and his followers, men and women who very much held money in disdain and were not wealthy by any means - would even OWN a gold cup among them? Remember Jesus of Nazareth was a carpenter by trade, not some wealthy person or royalty. "Render unto Caesar the things which are of Caesar,..." so the idea that a set of incredibly valuable gold and silver place settings would have been the utensils used at the famous Last Supper seems extremely unlikely and illogical. I am rather surprised that you arrived at this conclusion.

Is it impossible that the Templars could have known of the Americas, and have sailed here? Of course not - in fact there is a distinct possibility that something was in fact spirited away from Europe and possibly buried in the now-infamous site known as the Money Pit (Oak Island) by none other than Henry Sinclair, in or about 1321. However it is quite another matter for a medeival European ship to have carried a cargo up the Salt river to the Superstitions. For the Templars to have chosen that site to hide some treasure, they must have had knowledge of the place prior to that moment - so exactly how did the Templars gain knowledge of the Superstitions?

I wish you luck in pursuing your theories and in attempting to prove them, and look forward to reading the account of your adventures when you have completed your next expedition. I hope you will keep us posted, and as always - remember everything I have said here is just my own opinion - no offense was intended.

Good luck and good hunting to you, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.

your friend,
Roy ~ Oroblanco