Treasure Trove Permits

Az my friend, I am afraid that your picture #1 of what appears to be a + or X on the rock is actually a natural faulting. You can trace it on the rock easily. If I can ever figure how to make a legit Bit map picture from it, I will show you what I mean. It is not man made, sorry.

Donjose de La Mancha

p.s. Peeps, how do I copy it as a Bit map or JPEG in order to edit it?
 

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the blindbowman said:
so any one that wants a permit can, not just post a statement like this one ! ( " under a shelving rock where the dirt was soft ,i dug a grave and buried him ") and than post a photo of the real grave site and the bones of his nephew ... like this , and prove that all the BS about find the grave site in the past was total Bs, because this is the real grave site of the nephew of the dutchman ....undisturbed ...taken the 7th of Decmeber 2006 by the blindbowman ....take a good look , thats as close as you are ever going to get to this grave site ... you should have beleaved me to start with .. now its to late ...i found this site threw perfection and hard work and i am sorry to say my 3 sites yelded nothing but going into the mts and in 3 days i found this grave site ....now i just dont feel like playing anymore ....and lol i did find the real stone house and i did get photos as well...
Click to expand...

Errr----You might want to look at this
SH.
 

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if someone doesn't agree with something somebody says or thinks its outragous or crazy, all you have to do is not respond to the post and post your own opinion and ignore the person. Take the thread in another direction and talk with the "intelligent" people and ignore the far out ones. Or start a new thread. Thats not hard to do is it. what I see is every single post blindBowman made was jumped on and baited him time after time. If he hadnt been baited over and over again he would never have posted half the things he did. just my opinion but i stand on my original post. why would a serious person want to endlessly debate someone they feel is outrageous or crazy or a drug head ? i would want to seriously talk to other serious people not engage in what you have been doing here. You can try and dress it up any way you like, and explain it any way you like, but what your doing is called trolling.
 

I am with bowman on this one, BC what is your problem? what does all that have to do with this thread?
 

BB's LDM rants sound preposterous to me, but this is a public forum and any of us can refute his ideas here if we are interested enough to post a response. The last time I checked, there has been no credible evidence brought forth to identify where the LDM is located - if it exists at all. His hot air differs from others' hot air on the topic in that his ideas differ drastically from the accepted dogma available to the public, which IMHO is disinformation to begin with. In any event, we all have the option to ignore BB, the option I usually choose.

That said, it's also a fact that none of us have any right to judge BB's private life, past, present or future. Those who are quick to criticize alleged aspects of his personal life are showing that they may have character flaws that are much more destructive than BB's personal habits. Personally, I look in on this forum for LDM banter, not to hear what other posters' personal value judgements are. Peddle your character assassinations elsewhere.
 

BC,

Like I said, everyone is entitled to their opinion. I put my name on my posts and they are on a public site. That will always create some heat.

Here's another opinion: I see no value in going after bowman the way you, and some others, are doing. He is an open book at this time and those who want to have a dialog with him.....will.

Even though I did not believe his spill, I enjoyed batting the facts back and forth. It was pure entertainment and well worth the price of admission. He sent my own research in new directions......such as the fact that John Bourke believed he had found "Aztec Ruins" close to the Superstitions. While I had read his Journal some time ago, I had forgotten about the ruins. Fits right in with bowman's story.

Joe
 

Bowman,

You did not address the question of why you, a witch, seer, shaman......etc. identified the bones of a horse/mule, as belonging to the nephew of Jacob Waltz? How could that happen?

Joe
 

Something I say on a regular basis is: History is changed one word at a time. In his rendition of the Holmes account of Waltz killing his nephew, Bowman is adding an avalanche of words.

The Holmes story is so full of historical holes (documented), that to use many of his "facts" is courting fantasy. According to Holmes, Waltz said: We left the mine one morning and started for Phoenix...by the way of Fort McDowell. That night we camped at Agua Escondido,,,we had a terrible argument that night, the worst we'd had before.......I shot him in the forehead between the eyes...I then took a piece of chain and putting it around his neck...dragged him under a shelving rock and where the dirt was soft I dug...a grave...and buried him."

They spent one day leaving the mountains, and camped that night at "Agua Escondido". Bowman states that Waltz killed his nephew "1/8 of a mile" from the "hidden camp", and that the "large cache" was "at the hidden camp".

This means that the camp that Waltz used every night while working the mine was a full day's hike from the mine. ::)

Holmes states that Waltz said: "I was not a citizen of the United States nor had I declared my intentions to become one...so for that reason I couldn't locate and record the mine." This alleged statement is one of the things that casts the most doubt, for me, that this story is anything but fiction.

Holmes had no way of knowing that Waltz had declared his intention to become a citizen in Natchez, Mississippi, in 1848. A copy of that document can be found on page 114 of Dr. Glover's "The Lost Dutchman Mine Of Jacob Waltz". He also had no way of knowing that he became a Naturalized Citizen in Los Angeles, California on the 19th. of July, 1861.

Waltz came to Arizona in 1862. From 1863 to 1865 his wherabouts are documented for each year. For 1866 and 1867, I do not recall seeing any record of where he was. In March of 1868 he homesteaded on the north bank of the Salt River. Perhaps the missing years were when he found the LDM, but some believe he located it sometime between 1872 and 1878.

Bowman has mixed up some of the words from different parts of the Holmes story. He has also made huge leaps of "logic".

Joe Ribaudo
 

This "treasure trove permits" conversation is really going down the toilet.
BB, If the dutchman didn't want anyone to find the mine why not just keep quiet.Why would this tired old dieing man go to all the trouble of trying to mislead them by giving them bad information. If he really didn't want anyone else to find it, it would have been so much easier to just keep quiet.

Bill
 

Bill,

Here is something to consider if you are using the Holmes' Manuscript for a source:

When the manuscript first surfaced, Brownie claimed he did not write it, and had never seen it before. He later said it was his product. Now why would he deny writing it in the first place?

I believe there is some very good information in there, but I doubt Waltz told Dick Holmes one word of it.

The "deathbed confession" is pure fiction. (opinion)

Joe
 

CJ,
Please expand on that if you wouldn't mind. It's obvious there are a lot of questions about the Holmes manuscript but I got the impression that Dr. Glover felt that there may be something to it. Are you suggesting that Dick holmes was not with Waltz when he died or he just didn't tell him anything? Do you think the whole thing was a product of Brownies imagination? or Dicks imagination? and why create such a work of fiction?

Bill
 

So did dick really steal that box of ore from under the bed then just lie about it as Julia said?
 

Bill,

Whatever I say concerning Dick Holmes is pure opinion based on around 49 years of research into the legends surrounding the Superstition Mountains. That and five bucks will get me a fair cup of coffee.

Some of the things in Brownie's manuscript can be shown to be false, mostly because of timelines. Waltz being a cold blooded killer does not conform with accounts of those who actually knew the man. His killing his nephew, for the reasons stated, is provably not true.

I, along with most other LDM fans, believe that Dick stole the gold from under Waltz's deathbed. Once it came out that it was missing, it makes sense that he would say that Waltz gave it to him. I believe the entire account was made up to bolster that story and put Waltz in a bad light. His closest friends would end up painted with the same brush......no sympathy.

How, later on, could he admit to his son that he was a thief and liar? They were on the ground early, searching for the LDM. He knew it was somewhere in the Superstitions. Much of the story made public by Brownie, would be to mislead other searchers. You may have notice that when he started his final.....methodical search, he began on the main mountain and worked his way northeast.

Julia Thomas and Rhiney made their first effort to enter the mountains at Hog Canyon. They were doomed to fail and eventually had to bring others into the search. Not a job for two greenhorns. I have no doubts that Dick spent a lot of time following her, as she had the best information for finding the mine......probably the only information.

I am at the store so that's the best I can do for now.

Joe Ribaudo
 

CJ
I'm am relitivly new on this subject so bear with me, but wasn't dick holmes only about 15ys old when he supposedly heard that death bed confession and about all the people that he had killed
to protect his mine
Bill
 

Bill,

Even though I am away from any sources, I can say, with certainty, that you have mixed up some facts. Dick Holmes was around 15 when he supposedly attempted to follow Waltz to his mine. Waltz knew he was there all along, eventually confronted him and is said to have threatened to kill him if he ever tried it again.

Holmes did have some very good information, but it is unlikely that it came directly from Waltz. As it turned out, some of the things he said about the LDM were true, just not the directions on how to get there. Some things he got right were the descriptions of the mine and the area around it. The rest is pretty much a crock.....

If Holmes had any inkling of the directions to the mine, he would have found it without much trouble at all. Fact is......he did not have a clue.

There is not a shred of evidence that Waltz ever killed anyone.

Lot's of opinion here, so take it for what you think it's worth. ;)

Joe
 

CJ,
yes I see he should have been about 26. I'm just curious after spending over 40yrs researching the LDM do you really believe there ever was a real mine?

Bill
 

Bill,

Through no efforts of my own, I know that the LDM does exist. As it's not my story to tell, that's all I will say. Other than some time spent with others, I have never actually searched for the LDM.

Joe
 

What ever became of Gideon Roberts? he was right there with dick holmes. Was he ever interviewed?
He must have heard the same things that Dick did.Did he get any of that gold in the soap box or did he ever comment on it?
Bill
 

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