Treasure Trove Permits

[gollum]

BlindBowman,

Don't pat yourself onthe back too hard yet! You have yet to realize ONE CENT or ANY HARD EVIDENCE of your find. The higher you build yourself up, the harder the fall will be if your dream is not realized.

Kino was indeed capable of making any maps and/or codes of his day. It is common knowledge that he had an avid interest in both maps and mathematics (he was a professor of mathematics at Ingolstadt University bfore coming to New Spain).

Just keep asking yourself this: Why is it, that you can see a 10 foot diameter hole in the ground at an aircraft's altitude, when people have walked, ridden, and crawled over almost every square inch of the Supers for the last 115 years..........and nobody stumbled over it.

IMO you are sorely mistaken. The LDM (if it exists) is hidden by many feet of earth and wood. But I wish you best of luck anyway.

Best,

Mike

 

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[cactusjumper]

Bowman,

All of the above is why you are not looking at the LDM.

cj

 

[whitt459]

to blindbowman, some on here do very much want to be kept informed as to what transpires with your quest,regardless of what or when it was deposited, so please do not leave us hanging because of what a few people want to believe. i hope that what you have found will be a valueable find for the people of this great country.loking forward to more great post on this subject. whitt459

 

[cactusjumper]

Scott,

"As far as I’m concerned, the burden of proof is not on the people explaining why they are fake, it’s on the people who claim that they are not. As for who faked them, if I cared, I might follow up on Glover’s evidence regarding Johnny Steel – nobody ever talks about him."

No one "ever talks about him", because it's obvious that no cowboy created the Stone Maps. If there was an ounce of truth to the story, Thomas would have dug it up.

The Stone Maps are not the work of a single person. As I have said elswhere, Hieroglyphic Canyon is the beginning of the trail. That does not mean the Spaniards took their animals in that way. The two dots on the right side of the Heart Map are locater dots. The bottom one is the highest point on Bluff Spring Mountain. The upper dot is one of two points on the northwest end of Black Top Mesa. The dagger point rests on Parker Pass. Anyone with a topographic map can put the rest of the map together with that information.

The Priest and Horse Maps are the obvious work of Ted De Grazia.

Nice to see someone who know the history of the area, along with the history of the Jesuits. You are obviously well read.

cj

 

[cactusjumper]

Mr. Bowman,

I am not confused.

Around 35-years ago, when I first became aware of the Stone Maps, I had a hunch that the line on the first map was not a river, stream or any other water course. My first thought was that it was the southwest outline of the main mountain.

Going on that hunch, I got out my topographic maps, of which I had many, and tried to figure out where the trail was. Two canyons were in the right location and both made the same right turn around the middle of the arrow. They were Hog Canyon and Hieroglyphic Canyon.

I now needed to find the dotted/monumented trail that would continue from the top of the ridge. It was child's play to find the matching outline dropping down into West Boulder Canyon. Each and every turn was on the topo. In fact, a tracing of the trail that I had done from the book, could be placed directly on the topo and was to scale.

The rest of the maps were completed from that point. The obvious location for the person who drew, at least, the first map, was Superstition Peak.

I felt that each of the dots would be a monument of some kind.

Once I had placed most, not all, of the two trail maps on a topo, it was time to go in and see if there were any monuments to be found. Along with my uncle and brother and dog Juno, we made the trip into Willow Spring.
We came in over Tim's Saddle with backpacks, which is no picnic.

Once we got into Willow Spring, Uncle Chuck started to set up camp. My brother, dog and I, went south in the canyon to see if we could find a way up onto the ridge that separated West Boulder from East Boulder. Finding a likely place, we decided to test the climb. Next thing we knew, we were on top......Juno included.

I was looking for two specific monuments, and believed one of them would point the way to the second. The trail would take a turn to the north at those two monuments. We walked along the top for a short distance, probably no more than ten or fifteen minutes, when I spotted the first monument. I slipped the hammer-loop off my .45, as the hair on the back of my neck was telling me to be nervous.

We walked up to the monument, which was about the height of a man and pretty much square. At eye level, there was an obvious sight hole, which looked right at a small hill to the northeast. Walking around the hill, we found another monument which was the same construction as the first, but no sight hole. The two monuments turned the trail from an eastern direction to a northern direction along the top of the ridge.

At this point it was quite late, and we decided to start back to camp. The quickest way down, was to bail off the side and go straight down to Willow Spring. Part way down, we ran out of daylight. Chuck had made a pretty good white man's fire in camp, so we had a target. There were many places where we handed Juno down as we picked our way off the ridge. Still don't know how we survived that escapade.

That night, a storm came in and Chuck insisted we get the hell out of that canyon the next morning. It would be thirty-years before I set foot on that ridge again. In that time, someone has destroyed those monuments.

The heart, the trail to the heart, the triangle, the circle in a circle, are all at the end of the Stone Map Trail. Not "kinda", not close, not "I think", but precisely at the end of the trail that I placed on my topo thirty-five years ago. Anyone who takes the time, which you obviously have not, to pull out the maps required, can easily put the whole thing on them.

Once you have done that, you can prove-out the locations by drawing straight lines between each of the locater dots on the Stone Maps. You can then do the same thing on your topo, and you will notice that the lines run through the same places on the topo as the Stone Maps.

To give you the correct triangulation, the locater dot by the arrow on the dagger is the peak on the north side of Tim's Saddle. You will notice that the line between the highest point on Bluff Spring Mountain and Tim's Saddle runs directly through the circle in a circle.

To give you a better idea on the location of the locater dot on Black Top Mesa, you will follow the Bull Pass/Dutchman's trail directly to the top hill. At that point, there is an old trail breaking southeast (not shown on topo's) which circles around the lower hill and drops into Needle Canyon. That lower hill is the other locater dot.

Anyone who wants to discuss this information, or has questions, is welcome to ask. It's all an open book now.

cj

 

[cactusjumper]

Bowman,

Some people talk, and some just lay out the proof. You Sir, are a talker and a damn good one. That and five bucks will get you a fair cup of coffee.

Don't know how much time you have spent in the Superstition Mountains, but there are a number of "stone houses". I can enter the mountains from any place, and take you to an old mine or shaft. Trick is, to find one that actually has some kind of valuable ore in it. Most are barren.

That would exclude the eastern part of the range. A number of old silver mines over there.

Now you may have located the LDM, which will be a filled in hole in the ground, but it is nowhere near the Stone Map trail.

I am no longer "at it". I will leave it to others to walk in the footsteps of ghosts.

In truth, the best thing I could wish for you, is that you have not found the LDM. If you have, you will only understand that comment when you finally get inside.

cj

 

[Blazer]

cj wrote,

Do you believe a shaft and a tunnel will be sufficient evidence to get a Treasure Trove Permit? Do you know what is required in time and evidence to get such a permit? How many years do you think it will take.....just to get a yes or no? As far as I know, only one permit has ever been issued.

In the thread "TREASURE TROVRE PERMITS" Pg 1 JSCOTTWOOD wrote"

For the most part, if there is something historic or archaeological there, we usually just don’t issue the permit. The only time that we have gone through this entire process within the last couple of decades was for Ron Feldman’s treasure trove permit at Rogers’ Trough last year. It cost him a bunch of money and all he could claim for it was the confirmation of what we already suspected was a horizontal well that provided water to the mining camp and mill located just downslope.
Assuming that you have made it through this gauntlet and spent wads of cash on your search and you do actually find something that qualifies as a treasure trove, it is entirely possible that you may not be able to keep much or any of it. Basically, the only ‘treasure’ that you can keep would be a portion of any bullion, plate, coins, or unmounted gems, assuming that it clears escrow without any other claims of ownership. Any and all other artifacts are and will remain the property of the United States. Your portion of the trove would be determined as part of a negotiated settlement with the Federal Government. You would also have to declare this as taxable income"

Looks to me like cj is correct. (At least as far as the last two decades is concerned)


Blindbowman,

Are you getting the message yet?

Blazer

 

[cactusjumper]

Blazer,

"It cost him a bunch of money and all he could claim for it was the confirmation of what we already suspected was a horizontal well that provided water to the mining camp and mill located just downslope."

I consider myself a friend of the Feldman's, but I predicted what they would find to a number of my friends, at the beginning of the dig. Many asked my opinion and I said just what JScottWood said. One of the people who asked and received that reply, was Dr. Thomas Glover.

Most of us familiar with the history of the Southwest, are aware of the two groups who would normally take the time and effort to open up and improve old springs in the wilderness. That would be the ranchers and the miners.
This was only one of many that have been so worked over the years.

Having said that, I would not surmise that Ron Feldman was totally surprised at what he found.....or did not find.
My guess would be that he was totally satisfied with what took place. There are a number of people, I would imagine, who would agree with that statement, but they will remain nameless.

My conclusion about the spring, was my own. The rest comes from information supplied by knowledgable friends.

cj

 

[Blazer]

cj,

It si a real shame it ended up that way. Too bad someone didn't tell the Feldmans the story about it being an old spring. I heard him speak about it at the AJ high school before the dig "Opening the Lost Dutchman Mine" was the advertised topic for the lecture. He seemed to believe it was going to be something big in the way of an old mine, cache or something like that.

What I was really driving at was to let blindbowman know that it isn't all as simple as he thinks it is.

Blazer

 

[cactusjumper]

Blazer,

There is no reason to believe that telling Bowman anything will have a noticeable effect.

I doubt Ron needed to be told the "spring" story. IMHO, he knew exactly what he was doing and the complete history of the area. In fact, more than just about anyone.

cj

 

[cactusjumper]

Bowman,

Sound like you have it down to a T.

Good luck and good hunting.

cj

 

[Leones Corazon]

I'd like to thank scott for taking the time to post not only the law of the treasure trove permit but the laymans version we all can understand along with the real world version of the "how it goes" portion based on the position of the gsa employee.

What i don't understand is the disregard for a chance...even if slight that a small chapter of arizona history might actually come to see the light of day in regards to the spanish be it conquistadors...or the brown and black robes?

Yes and indian named pope successfully lead a revolt in 1680 in new mexico and a lot of records were destroyed...and they quite possably could have contained viable records to prove the spaniards explored a bit farther than previously thought.

Although Kenworthy's books might be a wild flight of fancy....i do believe there are some truths and a lot more half truth's between the covers of a least one of his books. Why did he miss label meanings in his book....my guess more than likely to profit from the sales of his books and provide fly paper for the flies...but thats just my opinion.

But i do believe in the western us there are way to many formations made from various types of rocks that carry a universal theme hundreds and thousand miles from each other....i'm not sure how we can go about debunking any of it due to the lack of historical records...but i can say this....over the years with a good eye for out of the norm things.....and with some field help from a certain poster in this string of events...and a good kick in the butt out the door to as we say in the army theses days "Boots on the ground"....i have learned alot on my own abouth the supposed none existant...figmant of my imagination...spanish trail markers. And it is truely amazing once you figure out parts of the supposed code how they not only lead you somewhere but help you along the waqy to the next point with subtle reminders along the way so you do not stray from the intended azimuth.....

I read on this site in the finds dept just how the gov in england deals with things....and it seems a model we should really take a look into if our gov wants to be fair and make all parties involved happy. I see now why so much history in the sw has been lost to private discovery as the alternative in going the just and legal way is just a losing propisition from the get go. I did recieve some advise from the younger kenworthy earlier this year as i was just curious as to the courses ava legaly....and his advise was that since the gov doesn't play nice....follow nyour markers and once you figure out the code....dig it up so it can be viewed...DO NOT TOUCH IT.....take pics to prove its existance as the spaniards did not always hide things in a closed up mineshaft....and cover it back up. Why....when it comes to negotiating with our wonderful gov....and you hold to evidence to an unpopular truth...and you alone know where its located at....people suddenly begin to listen....imagine that? I'm sure the value of one intact gold or silver bar showing spanish markings found near phx would have the historical community flipped upside and skidding out of control. And i am proud to say the younger kenworthy highly advised against removing the find and smelting it down and destroying the history....however if you place yourself in our general position as ametuer historians as we learn alot along the way...it is discouraging that simply because we have no written history...it doesn't exist as an answer....really puts a damper on discovery.

In the same breath...i understand that scott has most likely had to deal with way to many crack pots in his time...as i myself got to experience the haha your funny and btw here's the front door when i brought a few pics in to an az state archy in downtown phx around 97-98. So when i sit and contemplate the weigh and measure system of doing it right vs. doin it the un approved way....i really have to think long and hard about the decision.

Now if they had a system like england....where maybe i recieved x percent...the gov got x percent to fund agencies that have to deal with it like scott's...instead of the it belongs to the gov...and by the way thanx for bringing this to our attention...enjoy your stay in the fed pen for the next 30 years and thanx for the house approach....we might actually get somewhere....


And as far as the LDM or the supposed peralta stones.....i can only answer in this manner...there are valid spanish trail markers out there...why hasn't anyone tried to just forget about the LDM and just get back to basics and follow the markers? Yes...they might not lead to the dutchman mine...but they got there somehow...and have a purpose....you'd be anmazed at how they lead you along and what side stops they make.....

Ok...enough outa me...back to drillin this gas well...

BTW...MB and randy.....looks like i'll be back down around the end of june to continue the work....email me. Or MB....i'll call ya thursday as we should be at 7900 ft. in the am and ready to circ and come on out after a short trip so i'll be at the usual 48 hours off portion of the event....

DW

 

[Springfield]

and yes , we have undisputable evidence !

What we have is a boatload of bar talk.

 

[cactusjumper]

Bowman,

"if haveing undisputable evidence is what you mean, than yes CJ.... as Azstomper has pionted out it dose help to be able to navagate vs guessing ! lol ..."

How, exactly, does one "navagate" in the Superstitions if they have a hard time seeing the letters on a computer keyboard? Seems like a huge task, in and of itself.

An expedition being led into the Superstition wilderness by a blind bowman will make quite a story. I assume there is no maintained trail leading to your "undisputable evidence", so a seeing eye dog will end up following rabbit droppings. Best to leave some of your equipment behind, and replace it with jugs of water.......lot's of water.

Like I said......Good luck and good hunting.

Joe

 

[cactusjumper]

BC,

I appreciate your concern over my lack of sensibilities and if I ever need a watchdog, I will give you a call.

I did not "run down the blind and disabled", except in your mind. I work daily with people with disabilities, and merely made an observation based on BB's revelations.

Get a life.....Sir.

Joe

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Hey CJ: I have it from a good source - initials are d--- - that blind bowman is not really blind, he can spot a chick a mile away, especially if she is flung together as a female should be..

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[cactusjumper]

BC,

"If you had any decency in you at all you would apologize to the Blind Bowman and all blind people for your 'Observations'".

Someone here is blind alright, but it ain't the blindbowman. In case you missed the bowman's comments on his old malady, he is no longer blind. If he were, your defense would make sense, as he would not be aware of my "dig"(s) and would have need of a Crusader Rabbit.

"Hiding in your self imposed 'Observatory' while making disembodied remarks is no excuse."

Could you describe what my "self imposed 'Observatory'" is....exactly? And why do you say I am "Hiding"? Anyone, with above average intelligence, knows exactly who I am, where I live my phone number and a good deal of my personal history. In your case.....I am hiding in plain sight, so to speak.

If you are going to engage in some kind of a battle of wits with me......Sir, you will need to borrow something more than the 1/2 that is your own.

If I have offended bowman with those comments, he is more than capable of defending himself. In the event that he feels the need of your assistance, he is only half the man I think he is. I expect he will stick a few needles in me, which we do on a regular basis, and we will both end up smiling over the exchange....much as I am doing in this exchange with you.

We have been helping the elderly and the disabled for the last seventeen years of our lives. We consider ourselves blessed to have that honor and privilege. No doubt you receive the same rewards in your life.

"Oh, and I do have a life at least beyond posting gibberish every hour of the day like you do CJ......Sir."

Now that is harsh! I assume you don't really believe that is a true statement. Are you hinting that I am posting....more than my share? If so, what do you consider to be a fair number?

"Gibberish"? I doubt anyone else has trouble following what I am saying, but it's possible, since you do. I don't know how I can slow down the written word, but I will try to use words that you can read at a slower pace. That may also make them more intelligible for you.

Thanks for taking notice of my modest efforts here.

Joe Ribaudo

 

[cactusjumper]

Randy....My friend,

"I really think you misread CJ's post. He can say some uncanny crap sometimes,...."

I had no idea any of my comments rose, or fell, to the "uncanny crap" level. Could you quote some examples, so I can recognize and avoid such things in the future? As a friend, I would appreciate it.

"Seriously, think about this for a second or 2, how can a blind man type on a computer?"

One only needs finger(s) to type, not sight.

Thanks,

Joe

 

[Leones Corazon]

I guess i either need to email scott or post a few pics...although better judgement and MB's words tell me to follow caution...but then again my dear friend MB has been known to stir the pot from time to time so here is a very small portion of what i have that is most definately "North" of the Gila river boundry....

If not spanish trail markers....then what are they and who were they made by? If i need to keep an open mind i am more than willing to sit back and take in all opinions....

MB...please don't beat my butt for this.....

DW

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

HI: BB. A number of years ago I picked some type of an infection, bug, or virus in both eyes. After a few weeks of real hurt it stopped, but my eyes were fixed from scar tissue. I could walk but even with glasses I could not read newspaper headlines. Everything was a blur. The doctor simply said "sorry, at this point there is nothing that we can do".

At that time I was flying commercially and had just negotiated a tentative contract to fly daily flights from Mira fFores field in Baja Calif to LA international, to Phoenix. This of course blew it. I still could not drive a car.

With nothing else available, I went with two friends looking for the Lost mines of La Tarasca & Las Pimas. As I mentioned, I could see just a blur, but enough so that I could walk. We had a pair of 10 power binoculars which I used since there was enough adjustment range that I could see somewhat at a distance with them. Unfortunately due to my limited vision I stumbled and promply dropped them knocking them out of alignment. I had to use them this way for a week. Each day after a few minutes my eyes were so strained that it hurt like h---, even aspirin would not help. but it was necessary to use them..

One day I felt something rip in both eyes, it did not hurt but from that point my eyes returned to normal, I now have 20-20 vision again. The doctor that examined them said that i had had a miracle and that the scar tissue had torn loose and my eyes were capable of focusing again.

So in a small way I can sympathize with you, I do understand what you are talking about, but of course yer mind is shot from too much peyote, leave my Tayopa alone !

Heheheheheheh.

Don Jose de La Mancha