The "Peralta" Stone Maps --- On Their Own

[Carl995]

Frank I just started one about a half hour ago!!
Of course the mistakes will have to be fixed, as i'm confused on the matter!!

The arrows going both ways on the museum is because I don't know if the museum was selling the copies, the copies went somewhere?

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[sgtfda]

Carrol add dates as they become available

 

[sdcfia]

Perhaps one long time line is in order. Start at the beginning. Date available documents. When various stones appeared and people involved. As info becomes available fit it into the timeline. How does the evidence connect. Does the Miller stone have a connection to the ground map? The participants are long gone and you can only go on what they left behind. That and look at their actions. I don't think even they knew what the target was. Old mines, treasure or caches? My experience to date is old mines. With old mines the is a possibility of caches of ore. I have a problem with anyone hauling treasure into the area. They had enough problems getting ore out. Picture a large party hauling treasure into the mountain back in the day. The Apache would be well aware of who what and where things were stashed. How about a peek. Is there a Apache history of that type event? I'm sure they could use some cash. It was not that long ago.

Aren't you surprised that someone hasn't yet claimed that it's Montezuma's treasure that the Jesuits were looking for in the Superstitions?

 

[somehiker]

Aren't you surprised that someone hasn't yet claimed that it's Montezuma's treasure that the Jesuits were looking for in the Superstitions?

I think there has been a couple of posters who have claimed to have found where that treasure was buried in the Sups. Don't recall them saying the Jesuits were looking for it, although the stone maps were the basis of their beliefs. One or both may have authored books about their conclusions. The Bowman is another which comes to mind, but I think he based his theories on how potent his latest crop harvest happened to be. He put it somewhere just north east of the Dons Camp. None of them had actually found any treasure though.
The idea though, that the Jesuits may have taken an interest in the stories of that missing treasure and where it may have been taken, has also been part of my own research efforts. I haven't enough evidence as yet, on which to base such a claim. And neither have I stumbled across any hoard of Aztec treasure out there....
How about you, scdfia ? What are your thoughts re: possible links between the Jesuits, the stones.....or "rocks"....and "Montezuma's Treasure" ?

 

[sdcfia]

I think there has been a couple of posters who have claimed to have found where that treasure was buried in the Sups. Don't recall them saying the Jesuits were looking for it, although the stone maps were the basis of their beliefs. One or both may have authored books about their conclusions. The Bowman is another which comes to mind, but I think he based his theories on how potent his latest crop harvest happened to be. He put it somewhere just north east of the Dons Camp. None of them had actually found any treasure though.
The idea though, that the Jesuits may have taken an interest in the stories of that missing treasure and where it may have been taken, has also been part of my own research efforts. I haven't enough evidence as yet, on which to base such a claim. And neither have I stumbled across any hoard of Aztec treasure out there....
How about you, scdfia ? What are your thoughts re: possible links between the Jesuits, the stones.....or "rocks"....and "Montezuma's Treasure" ?

OK, hiker, here goes. I have grave reservations concerning the "stones", as far as the stories have unfolded so far. My working model - always subject to change - is that Travis was essentially no more than a clever grifter. Recidivism is a very difficult tendency to overcome, and some of his alleged activities seem to indicate that. I'm much more interested in Pegleg and the provenance and content of his maps. I don't expect to see the results I'd like, but ... we'll wait to find out.

For decades I've had a notion that there was something of enormous value concealed somewhere in central Arizona. I don't mean the LDM - I haven't seen anything to convince me to hop onto that hayrack ride yet either. So, what's hidden? I don't know. Re Montezuma's treasure, I haven't bought into that story as told either (notice a pattern?). If the Aztecs removed treasure from central Mexico and hid it from the Spaniards, my bet would be somewhere in Mexico.

Now, I had a couple long chats with Gerry Babcock way back before he published his book, Chicomoztoc, about the Aztecs in the Superstitions. He had a story to tell and he stuck with it, whether or not his premise was genuine. I've seen evidence, mostly circumstantial, of Aztec-related sites in New Mexico and my antennae are always sensitive to additional ideas along those lines. My working model: the Aztecs may have had very rich mines in the American Southwest - their pre-migration homeland - and these mines may have been a primary source of their later huge Mexican inventory. In other words, the gold originally traveled south to Mexico, not north later to today's USA.

The Jesuits? Kino undoubtedly heard all the rumors and likely did a lot of searching trying to match up his intel. Whatever one might think of those guys, one thing seems obvious to me: if they had knowledge of big loot in the Superstitions, they'd have figured out how to claim or recover it long ago. Powerful, capable organizations seldom allow themselves to be in a position where they "lose" important things, IMO. Would they lay claim to anything RG might turn up, based on "Jesuit symbols" someone put on a map?" Sure, why not? Jackals love easy prey. However, my personal opinion is that nothing will be found.

Rumors, legends, stories and maps abound, but remember, things are seldom as they seem.

 

[Old]

Let me take a minute to get back to the telling of the story and address some of your valid questions.

The substance of the story is Ryan’s to tell and I’m not going to step on that. Many of your substantive questions are better asked of him in a different forum.

What I can tell you about is the logic and method of how we developed the story.

We have both told you there are time line eras of the story that we don’t have factual evidence to support our speculative theory. What is important to keep in mind is we do have evidence of how the story gets to point C and we do know and have evidence of what happened from point D forward. Its that middle era where you have problems. That was our problem too.

That’s what I alluded to before the train jumped the tracks and declined into a name calling session.

Jim, and to some degree Paul also, has problems with the Adolph Ruth/Roy Bradford introduction into the story. Fair enough. First up we aren’t the ones to introduce that aspect. Travis is in his manuscript.
We had to explore that and we did. What we found was it was a very important story to Travis. So much so that originally Travis led with it in the opening pages of his book. Later; when he thought more of it; he buried that story in the later pages and took it out of context and made it of lesser importance to the original theme. Why would he do that? Lets explore.

I’m not at this point (maybe later) going to go back and dig out all the names, dates and evidence. Its all there. The community has chewed on it for many years. I’ll just skim the top of the logic we used.
First up; Travis in his manuscript is relaying a story told to him from first hand participants in their down line actions as later players in the Ruth/Bradford/Barkeley story. The time line of when he heard that story fits. Lets explore what was happening before and during that time.

The Ruth story is the one that put the LDM on the national stage. Cross country news publications and communications were greatly expanded from those in prior years.

We know there was a detective/under Sheriff (?) that followed up with Erwin Ruth in trying to follow leads to Ruth’s murder. That tells us at least that law enforcement person wasn’t too keen on the “natural causes” explanation of Ruth’s death.

That detective tried several times to get Erwin Ruth to give him details of identifying things on the map(s) in Ruth’s possession. The maps that were missing from his remains and camp site. We don’t know for sure if Erwin Ruth ever revealed those details to him. The “spin” of our current day stories is that he did not. We don’t know if that’s true.

What (I think) is important to our theory is the strength that detective put on the maps. I’m paraphrasing …………he told Erwin ……there are hundreds of maps that come to light from time to time. He had no way of identifying which (if any) of those could possibly source back to the senior Mr. Ruth. He told Erwin…..tell me what to look for so I can identify the one your father carried. BECAUSE…. If I can find the man with the map I will have found the man who killed him (or someone very close to the killer).

At the time Travis was writing the Ruth murder was still an open file. The time of incident to then was not as distant as it is today. I believe, open to your scrutiny, that Travis was well aware of the trouble that would surely come if he ended up being the person in possession of Adolph Ruth’s personal effects. He was in law enforcement himself, had a prior record (although pardoned), and was a man with unexplained wealth far beyond ordinary for the time. Being the holder of such things was sure to bring unwelcomed scrutiny. Although he had an alibi himself, he would have been called in and questioned heavily on how he came to have those possession. He didn’t want that headache or attention.

But; regardless of all that he included it in his telling of his story. He didn’t have to but it was compelling to him. It was a part of the narrative. He moved it from the led to a more insignificant place in the story, but included it never the less. It was a big deal to him. If a big deal to him we have to consider it a big deal for us as well.

Next up is why we were conflicted by the story we were working on being enlarged. There are side stories all through out. Some we concentrated on in minute detail, some not so much. It was the dilemma of mission creep. We had limited time and limited budget to get the product to market. Timeliness is important. Also with Resolution Copper’s looming takeover of a large section of the range we didn’t feel we could follow every lead to the extent we could have in the interest of time.

There are many aspects of the story that are ripe for further review. Jim just recently opened a whole new avenue of discovery with his observations of the telegraph instructions. There is room to follow up on that and its compelling. Good job Jim! Ryan may expand on that. But it’s a whole new avenue.

More later………I have to get my REAL job done and I’ve been derelict on that. My bad.

 

[sgtfda]

Aren't you surprised that someone hasn't yet claimed that it's Montezuma's treasure that the Jesuits were looking for in the Superstitions?

I doubt they would stash their treasure in a volcano. Or a area prone to earthquakes. I don't care how old it is. There is a weakness in the earths crust under all volcanos. One day that old man will pop a Viagra

 

[PotBelly Jim]

Old wrote:

"Jim, and to some degree Paul also, has problems with the Adolph Ruth/Roy Bradford introduction into the story. Fair enough. First up we aren’t the ones to introduce that aspect. Travis is in his manuscript."

Yup...skepticism on my part was meant for the story Travis heard, and what it implied to me... nothing else.

It wasn't important, I probably should have just held off on that until Ryan had wrapped up his posts on the other forum...

Thanks for following up on here - Jim

 

[sgtfda]

In the future I'll refer to Travis as Forest Gump. If you watched that movie Forest Gump was involved in every major event in his lifetime. I'm sure his followers will find that offensive but the comparison is valid. I learned not to trust anything that comes from a former convict. Prison changes all in some way. Just the type you want to run a fruit farm. Stick a badge on him and set him loose.

 

[sgtfda]

The V's on the cactus at the 1849 site. My opinion. They look old enough to have been placed there from the 1950's on. No older. Mr Gump was photographed in that area down over the hill. Did he do a Bob Ward. Set up a treasure site.

 

[releventchair]

In the future I'll refer to Travis as Forest Gump. If you watched that movie Forest Gump was involved in every major event in his lifetime. I'm sure his followers will find that offensive but the comparison is valid. I learned not to trust anything that comes from a former convict. Prison changes all in some way. Just the type you want to run a fruit farm. Stick a badge on him and set him loose.

Bain vs. Mundy in , "It takes a thief" Tonight at eight right here on station &%#!

 

[sgtfda]

Don't trust GPR! A recent incident in Pennsylvania proves that. Man claimed to have located the civil war lost gold bars. The FBI mounted a huge response based on findings from a well known GPR Co. Huge. They said the bars were there. Look it up here on TNet. Guess what. Nothing there. It was ground mineralization. The FBI filled up a large hotel and had the Army standing by in the area to transport the gold out. With GPR the target is not what you think until you dig it up. Same goes with the magic cane that has found every lost treasure in the mountain. Though not one item has been recovered to date

 

[azdave35]

In the future I'll refer to Travis as Forest Gump. If you watched that movie Forest Gump was involved in every major event in his lifetime. I'm sure his followers will find that offensive but the comparison is valid. I learned not to trust anything that comes from a former convict. Prison changes all in some way. Just the type you want to run a fruit farm. Stick a badge on him and set him loose.

 

[azdave35]

Don't trust GPR! A recent incident in Pennsylvania proves that. Man claimed to have located the civil war lost gold bars. The FBI mounted a huge response based on findings from a well known GPR Co. Huge. They said the bars were there. Look it up here on TNet. Guess what. Nothing there. It was ground mineralization. The FBI filled up a large hotel and had the Army standing by in the area to transport the gold out. With GPR the target is not what you think until you dig it up. Same goes with the magic cane that has found every lost treasure in the mountain. Though not one item has been recovered to date

i'm with you on that...all these technological gadgets give false signals...in my younger days i dug many an empty hole because a newfangled gadget told me something was there...whether its a long range locator...gpr..metal detector or bent coat hangers..they have all forced me into manual labor with a shovel that produced nothing but mineralization

 

[sdcfia]

Don't trust GPR! A recent incident in Pennsylvania proves that. Man claimed to have located the civil war lost gold bars. The FBI mounted a huge response based on findings from a well known GPR Co. Huge. They said the bars were there. Look it up here on TNet. Guess what. Nothing there. It was ground mineralization. The FBI filled up a large hotel and had the Army standing by in the area to transport the gold out. With GPR the target is not what you think until you dig it up. Same goes with the magic cane that has found every lost treasure in the mountain. Though not one item has been recovered to date

GPR is a wonderful tool for verifying placement and depth of rebar in a newly poured concrete road, bridge, etc. That's why it was developed. End of that story.

I've seen and/or tried all sorts of subsurface detection gadgets based on various technologies. I wouldn't say that any of them can't work, but the conditions have to be perfect and the operator has to be very skilled. In the real world, the conditions are normally rife with snags of all sorts, and most operators don't use these things enough to get proficient. The results speak for themselves - false signals galore.

 

[azdave35]

GPR is a wonderful tool for verifying placement and depth of rebar in a newly poured concrete road. That's why it was developed. End of that story.

I've seen and/or tried all sorts of subsurface detection gadgets based on various technologies. I wouldn't say that any of them can't work, but the conditions have to be perfect and the operator has to be very skilled. In the real world, the conditions are normally rife with snags of all sorts, and most operators don't use these things enough to get proficient. The results speak for themselves - false signals galore.

same here..tried them all...lrl..gpr..freedman subsurface detector...omnitron...electroscope...ground resistance...etc....they are all just tools...but it all boils down to one tool in the end to see if there is really anything in the ground...a shovel..lol

 

[azdave35]

The V's on the cactus at the 1849 site. My opinion. They look old enough to have been placed there from the 1950's on. No older. Mr Gump was photographed in that area down over the hill. Did he do a Bob Ward. Set up a treasure site.

sarge..in my opinion alot of the markers out there..be they on cactus or rock...were place there by treasure hunters to throw others off...most of the old time treasure hunters did this...chuck crawford...bob ward..barry storm just to name a few...my guess is alot more....in the late 40's when carrol ingle got here...he saw alot of this..treasure symbols magically appearing on rocks and cacti.. he told me alot of the old valid markers were being destroyed and new ones popping up all over the place....the movie lust for gold brought an influx of loonie treasure hunters to the area and that is when the antics started...before that movie came out there were very few miners and treasure hunters out here

 

[sgtfda]

I agree Dave!

 

[Cubfan64]

sarge..in my opinion alot of the markers out there..be they on cactus or rock...were place there by treasure hunters to throw others off...most of the old time treasure hunters did this...chuck crawford...bob ward..barry storm just to name a few...my guess is alot more....in the late 40's when carrol ingle got here...he saw alot of this..treasure symbols magically appearing on rocks and cacti.. he told me alot of the old valid markers were being destroyed and new ones popping up all over the place....the movie lust for gold brought an influx of loonie treasure hunters to the area and that is when the antics started...before that movie came out there were very few miners and treasure hunters out here

I'll never forget the Rendezvous that Clay Worst sat in the Ramada talking for awhile - one of the things he said was how once while out in the mountains, he carved a heart in rock himself. He chuckled and sort of shook his head when he said he didn't even know himself why he did it.

I think you're probably right Dave - most of those signs were made by past treasure hunters or folks just messing around. Pretty damn hard to tell the difference

 

[azdave35]

I'll never forget the Rendezvous that Clay Worst sat in the Ramada talking for awhile - one of the things he said was how once while out in the mountains, he carved a heart in rock himself. He chuckled and sort of shook his head when he said he didn't even know himself why he did it.

I think you're probably right Dave - most of those signs were made by past treasure hunters or folks just messing around. Pretty damn hard to tell the difference

carrol got here in 1948....(me and carrol jr. disagree on this)...it was still pretty pristine when he got here....the 50's,60's and 70's brought alot of change to the mountain...not for the good either