The "Peralta" Stone Maps --- On Their Own

[OldManOfTheRiver]

in other words no matter how you look at it we are getting screwed lol

The American Way. Rules only apply to the unwashed masses.

 

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[Old]

Somehiker wrote..........."Aside from the obvious concern we should ALL have for any detrimental impacts on the land ,it's archaeological resources, wildlife, and of course our "other" interests in what is out there, how might this aspect of the project affect RG's own plans ?
In that.......
if the TSF lies within his own area of interest, it doesn't allow much more time for any interested production company to accomplish much in the way of film documentation."

Wayne, I've moved past that. Other's might consider a similar path. It's (IMO) a more productive course. Its really not my business. I don't have the funds nor the arrogance of youth to think I can stop the world and change the inevitable. I just live with the cards that are dealt me. To that end I have a duty to protect and keep safe that which doesn't belong to me. Who knows? A good story remains a good story whenever its filmed or published. Its not my right to judge or decide when and how someone else's property is used.

What I CAN do is share my thoughts, my work product (worthless or not) with those who share a similar interest. Its a balancing act. But, one is not wholly dependent on the other as you may seem to view them.

On that premise...........I believe we all share the thought that the Stone Maps enter the area from the South. The Point of Beginning is located to the South of the range and then travels in a generally North from South direction. Hard to not include the Resolution Copper facilities dilemma in any discussion of that.

If my constraints are an unacceptable position or prohibits me from posting publically on this forum then I will be governed accordingly.

 

[markmar]

Lynda

IMO , the starting point ( the trail ) for the stone maps is too far from the copper mining activities , so don't worry about markers and signs . Also , the trail starts from west to east and is about an arrow shot distance till its end .

 

[Old]

Marius, I give you points for persistence <g>. We will just have to agree to disagree on this one.

 

[markmar]

Marius, I give you points for persistence <g>. We will just have to agree to disagree on this one.

In the most cases the persistence wins . There are not fences between our theories , but only junctions .

 

[OldManOfTheRiver]

In the most cases the persistence wins . There are not fences between our theories , but only junctions .

True, but the stones are fake:
Research Archaeologist Dr. Jenny Adams of Desert Archaeology Inc. (Consulting Firm)

1. "There is no evidence that the stones were ever buried."
2. "The dark stones were mechanically sanded and then drilled.........In many places, there is a 'start dimple' where the drill first touched the stone."
3. "The use of an electric drill to create the drawings and symbols............dates their carving to sometime after 1940."

Research Geologist Dr. Elizabeth Miksa of Desert Archaeology Inc. (Consulting Firm)

4. ......"the Peralta Stones originated far from where they were supposedly found."
5. "The big stone with the horse appears to be Coconino Sandstone,...... The other two sandstones are very soft, very fine, iron-rich ...sandstones. [These] are most likely found on the Mogolon Rim or in northern Arizona."

 

[Old]

River,

IMO, for what its worth.........they aren't fake. Not in the sense of made up from whole cloth fake. They are reproductions.

The original stones were much smaller and all grey in color. More the consistency and shape of a cobblestone, but very slightly larger. That was related to me by the folks that saw them. I tend to believe the truth of it.

I can agree with all the archeologist conclusions and reconcile them. With the one exception that they were never buried. I don't know that as fact one way or the other. I do know the "reproductionist" had a history of burying other examples of his work to age and cure them.

As always........you are free to hold to what rings true to you.

 

[OldManOfTheRiver]

River,

IMO, for what its worth.........they aren't fake. Not in the sense of made up from whole cloth fake. They are reproductions.

The original stones were much smaller and all grey in color. More the consistency and shape of a cobblestone, but very slightly larger. That was related to me by the folks that saw them. I tend to believe the truth of it.

I can agree with all the archeologist conclusions and reconcile them. With the one exception that they were never buried. I don't know that as fact one way or the other. I do know the "reproductionist" had a history of burying other examples of his work to age and cure them.

As always........you are free to hold to what rings true to you.

Aye. Well why are the originals no where to be found? I mean I'd really like to know where these so called originals are and why reproductions needed to be made in the first or second place! The whole thing doesn't make much sense to be honest.

 

[Cubfan64]

River,

IMO, for what its worth.........they aren't fake. Not in the sense of made up from whole cloth fake. They are reproductions.

The original stones were much smaller and all grey in color. More the consistency and shape of a cobblestone, but very slightly larger. That was related to me by the folks that saw them. I tend to believe the truth of it.

I can agree with all the archeologist conclusions and reconcile them. With the one exception that they were never buried. I don't know that as fact one way or the other. I do know the "reproductionist" had a history of burying other examples of his work to age and cure them.

As always........you are free to hold to what rings true to you.

I'm pretty sure I know the answer but based on that last post of yours there's an obvious question...

Are you suggesting Travis reproduced on stone (maybe multiple times) the original maps, buried at least one set (the ones supposedly found near Florence) and then at a later date dug them back up and started this whole "shindig?"

By the way, I'm working my way through the video's - I can only absorb 15 minutes or so at a time before zoning out, but I'll get through them eventually and probably have to do it several times for everything to sink in

 

[Cubfan64]

Aye. Well why are the originals no where to be found? I mean I'd really like to know where these so called originals are and why reproductions needed to be made in the first or second place! The whole thing doesn't make much sense to be honest.

What if the originals were on paper, leather, etc... subject to decay, fire and other assorted damages that could destroy them forever. Travis liked to "carve" on stone, so it's not a stretch to think that he made reproductions on stone both in an effort to try to figure them out and also to preserve them from damage that could result from the more fragile originals. Just a theory but I don't think it's that out of the realm of possibility.

 

[Old]

Paul and River, there are parts of the story that I don't know for fact how one gets from point C to point D. Anything I can add on those fronts is conjecture on my part.

I know he made copies because people saw him making them. I know there were multiple sets because I can place sets in multiple places at the same time.

I don't know if he buried a set at Florence Junction and later recovered it, or; if none of that part of the story is true. I don't want you to draw that conclusion. That was not my intension to lead your thoughts that way. Its possible, but unlikely in my way of thinking. I have enough circumstantial evidence to convince me the bumper photo is not made in Arizona. My guess would be, and its just a guess, that IF they were buried it wasn't in Arizona. More likely Texas.

I do know he was obsessed with the stones and trying to figure them out. Its conjecture on my part that that is the reason he reproduced them over and over. Many artist do that. Its not uncommon. I live with one that does that with music. They get into a zone and don't come out until they are either exhausted or reached a level of perfection for that moment. Time has no meaning when they are in the zone.

As to shenanigans I don't find any. Not on Travis' part. I've been through a mountain of paper work, diaries, journals, sketchbooks, bank statements, personal and business correspondence, legal documents, receipts, phone numbers, addresses............you name it. There is a ton. In that regard he was a hoarder. He kept everything. Little scraps here, big piles there.

I find NOTHING where Travis ever benefitted or tried to benefit financially from either the original stones or reproductions as a hoax based scheme. None, nada. I do know he made limited efforts to negotiate what I'm going to call a "screen play" of his life and quest for Superstition gold. It was in the nature of a historical FICTION format. Lots of truth woven into some flavor added narratives. He promoted it as we would today as an action play not as a 100% factual account. Make of that what you will. But; I see no foul play or deceptive motive in that. Whatever deception may (or may not) have taken place after his death was not of his making.

Those that knew him best went to their grave professing the authenticity of "the stones" to their children. The real stones. And; those are the same folks that saw him make copies.

lyn

 

[Cubfan64]

Paul and River, there are parts of the story that I don't know for fact how one gets from point C to point D. Anything I can add on those fronts is conjecture on my part.

I know he made copies because people saw him making them. I know there were multiple sets because I can place sets in multiple places at the same time.

I don't know if he buried a set at Florence Junction and later recovered it, or; if none of that part of the story is true. I don't want you to draw that conclusion. That was not my intension to lead your thoughts that way. Its possible, but unlikely in my way of thinking. I have enough circumstantial evidence to convince me the bumper photo is not made in Arizona. My guess would be, and its just a guess, that IF they were buried it wasn't in Arizona. More likely Texas.

I do know he was obsessed with the stones and trying to figure them out. Its conjecture on my part that that is the reason he reproduced them over and over. Many artist do that. Its not uncommon. I live with one that does that with music. They get into a zone and don't come out until they are either exhausted or reached a level of perfection for that moment. Time has no meaning when they are in the zone.

As to shenanigans I don't find any. Not on Travis' part. I've been through a mountain of paper work, diaries, journals, sketchbooks, bank statements, personal and business correspondence, legal documents, receipts, phone numbers, addresses............you name it. There is a ton. In that regard he was a hoarder. He kept everything. Little scraps here, big piles there.

I find NOTHING where Travis ever benefitted or tried to benefit financially from either the original stones or reproductions as a hoax based scheme. None, nada. I do know he made limited efforts to negotiate what I'm going to call a "screen play" of his life and quest for Superstition gold. It was in the nature of a historical FICTION format. Lots of truth woven into some flavor added narratives. He promoted it as we would today as an action play not as a 100% factual account. Make of that what you will. But; I see no foul play or deceptive motive in that. Whatever deception may (or may not) have taken place after his death was not of his making.

Those that knew him best went to their grave professing the authenticity of "the stones" to their children. The real stones. And; those are the same folks that saw him make copies.

lyn

Thanks for the response - honestly I sort of expected I was treading in an area where the answer would have fallen under the "I know some things, but I'm not at liberty to comment" . You're far more involved in the story than most and obviously have access to things many of us have never seen so it has to be very difficult to walk that tightrope of providing answers to your theories without "giving away the farm" when your theories are backed by things you can't publicly talk about.

Personally if it was me, I probably wouldn't even be posting if I were you :P You'll have to keep that in mind when some of your posts and questions seem to cross a line asking for you to reveal things you can't - we're only human and we'll always be pushing the limits of trying to get new information.

It's all interesting stuff, and sad that one of these days some of the areas Travis may have been interested in will be covered under layers and layers of fresh overburden.

 

[cactusjumper]

Paul and River, there are parts of the story that I don't know for fact how one gets from point C to point D. Anything I can add on those fronts is conjecture on my part.

I know he made copies because people saw him making them. I know there were multiple sets because I can place sets in multiple places at the same time.

I don't know if he buried a set at Florence Junction and later recovered it, or; if none of that part of the story is true. I don't want you to draw that conclusion. That was not my intension to lead your thoughts that way. Its possible, but unlikely in my way of thinking. I have enough circumstantial evidence to convince me the bumper photo is not made in Arizona. My guess would be, and its just a guess, that IF they were buried it wasn't in Arizona. More likely Texas.

I do know he was obsessed with the stones and trying to figure them out. Its conjecture on my part that that is the reason he reproduced them over and over. Many artist do that. Its not uncommon. I live with one that does that with music. They get into a zone and don't come out until they are either exhausted or reached a level of perfection for that moment. Time has no meaning when they are in the zone.

As to shenanigans I don't find any. Not on Travis' part. I've been through a mountain of paper work, diaries, journals, sketchbooks, bank statements, personal and business correspondence, legal documents, receipts, phone numbers, addresses............you name it. There is a ton. In that regard he was a hoarder. He kept everything. Little scraps here, big piles there.

I find NOTHING where Travis ever benefitted or tried to benefit financially from either the original stones or reproductions as a hoax based scheme. None, nada. I do know he made limited efforts to negotiate what I'm going to call a "screen play" of his life and quest for Superstition gold. It was in the nature of a historical FICTION format. Lots of truth woven into some flavor added narratives. He promoted it as we would today as an action play not as a 100% factual account. Make of that what you will. But; I see no foul play or deceptive motive in that. Whatever deception may (or may not) have taken place after his death was not of his making.

Those that knew him best went to their grave professing the authenticity of "the stones" to their children. The real stones. And; those are the same folks that saw him make copies.

lyn

Lynda,

I have it from someone who was an eyewitness, that I trust has no dog in the hunt, that Travis did try to sell the Stone Maps. Just because you don't know of his ever trying to sell them, does not mean that is a fact. On the other hand, I know they are true maps.

Take care,

Joe

 

[cactusjumper]

Aye. Well why are the originals no where to be found? I mean I'd really like to know where these so called originals are and why reproductions needed to be made in the first or second place! The whole thing doesn't make much sense to be honest.

Old Man,

If the originals were ever produced, they would be debunked, just as the ones you mentioned were. I had personal contact with the same people, with the same conclusions.

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

 

[somehiker]

Aye. Well why are the originals no where to be found? I mean I'd really like to know where these so called originals are and why reproductions needed to be made in the first or second place! The whole thing doesn't make much sense to be honest.

There's always a good market for reproductions of stuff that people want, sometimes because they just like being able to look at it more often.
Paintings and statues are a good example, and museums often purchase replicas to fill out their own collections.....where an original is unavailable, often because the current museum or private owner doesn't want to sell the original at any price. Sounds like Travis might have tried to sell a few knockoff's himself, at least around Apache Junction, where the interest might be greater for Spanish or Jesuit stone treasure maps. I'd be willing to bet that the SM Museum could do a pretty good business in replicas of the stones were they to start selling them. Could have them made in China....cheap.

 

[sdcfia]

There's always a good market for reproductions of stuff that people want, sometimes because they just like being able to look at it more often.
Paintings and statues are a good example, and museums often purchase replicas to fill out their own collections.....where an original is unavailable, often because the current museum or private owner doesn't want to sell the original at any price. Sounds like Travis might have tried to sell a few knockoff's himself, at least around Apache Junction, where the interest might be greater for Spanish or Jesuit stone treasure maps. I'd be willing to bet that the SM Museum could do a pretty good business in replicas of the stones were they to start selling them. Could have them made in China....cheap.

Good points all. The problem with Travis's Dog & Pony Show is that once it's determined that the fabled tablets from ?? were made by the guy in the eye of the storm, a nagging doubt about arises that the whole shebang may be just a tempest in a teapot. "Original stones?" If these exist, why assume they are more than just Travis's earlier prototypes?

 

[Old]

Good morning Joe, hope you are well.

I’ve seen you comment before that your trusted source tells that Travis tried to sell the Stones. I know you are sincere in putting faith in that statement.

You are correct that the absence of evidence isn’t proof of no evidence. I have to leave an opening for the possibility that you are correct. Its possible.

To do diligence to the question I have to weigh the evidence in favor and against the possibility.

Here’s the weight factors. I’m telling you with all sincerity I’ve been through the man’s personal belongings spanning a decade of activity during his possession of the articles. Longer, but we’ll stick with the timeframe in question. I’ve seen and heard the testimony, both old and newly given, from those closest to him. I’ve related the depth of that so I won’t reiterate. The only thing I will add is the bulk of this paper work is newly found and was unsorted. Its not like anybody was holding anything back. It’s the good, the bad, and the ugly all boxed and stored.

I’m sure your source is relating what he’s been told. Unless he’s the one who received that offer, he’s relying on the accuracy and motive of the one he heard it from. As we know and see, one word changed in a story can change the whole narrative.

Lets view this from a different angle. Lets say there was an offer of sale. Why wasn’t there any follow up on that offer? There were some well-heeled folks in the hunt at the time. If, as some believe, Travis was a pay check to pay check kind of guy. (Which isn’t the case). Why not make a deal for a very hot commodity? It would have paid handsomely.

Lots of folks have profited from the stones in off handed ways. Even the museum was selling an opportunity for just a look at a pretty hefty price. Why not make the deal

 

[releventchair]

Good morning Joe, hope you are well.

I’ve seen you comment before that your trusted source tells that Travis tried to sell the Stones. I know you are sincere in putting faith in that statement.

You are correct that the absence of evidence isn’t proof of no evidence. I have to leave an opening for the possibility that you are correct. Its possible.

To do diligence to the question I have to weigh the evidence in favor and against the possibility.

Here’s the weight factors. I’m telling you with all sincerity I’ve been through the man’s personal belongings spanning a decade of activity during his possession of the articles. Longer, but we’ll stick with the timeframe in question. I’ve seen and heard the testimony, both old and newly given, from those closest to him. I’ve related the depth of that so I won’t reiterate. The only thing I will add is the bulk of this paper work is newly found and was unsorted. Its not like anybody was holding anything back. It’s the good, the bad, and the ugly all boxed and stored.

I’m sure your source is relating what he’s been told. Unless he’s the one who received that offer, he’s relying on the accuracy and motive of the one he heard it from. As we know and see, one word changed in a story can change the whole narrative.

Lets view this from a different angle. Lets say there was an offer of sale. Why wasn’t there any follow up on that offer? There were some well-heeled folks in the hunt at the time. If, as some believe, Travis was a pay check to pay check kind of guy. (Which isn’t the case). Why not make a deal for a very hot commodity? It would have paid handsomely.

Lots of folks have profited from the stones in off handed ways. Even the museum was selling an opportunity for just a look at a pretty hefty price. Why not make the deal

Greetings Old:

[Lets view this from a different angle. Lets say there was an offer of sale. Why wasn’t there any follow up on that offer? There were some well-heeled folks in the hunt at the time. If, as some believe, Travis was a pay check to pay check kind of guy. (Which isn’t the case). Why not make a deal for a very hot commodity? It would have paid handsomely.]


To expect Travis to leave incriminating evidence after being familiar with jail and those who inhabit them or die avoiding ........
Is like expecting folks to leave such evidence on their computer. (Though some do!)

Besides ,selling map copies was/is no big earth shaking deal. Even if not recorded in a manner leaving the seller exposed in court should a disputes
arise. (And disputes arise!)

Backtracking maps to find something genuine / original pre Tumilson hand,Tumilson additions ,Tumilson versions ,Tumilson translations(P-Leg /Travis) that is reflected in Travis's time would help.
Proving provenance and authenticity of any prior map(s) that Travis had or saw before modification would be the mucky ,but not impossible ; part to sort some truth from the chaff?
Despite claims of other map(s) being hidden about hither and yon ,or closer and recovered.....Without knowing their origin and source ,they are merely maps , or better put ;renditions of maps. Not much but to starry eyed chasers of .... non originally sourced maps. Making for better entertainment than reality.

A real map? In your journal /diary? Risky ...maybe.Would have a lot to do with who knew what and who was around for what purpose...maybe.
A record of selling fake maps? Rather more so this risky matter. Add a receipt of sale and a search warrant by another party imposed upon the diary maker and Travis would not likely be the author.

Looking over ones shoulder afterwords transactions don't mean leaving evidence. Waltz deathbed confessions may or may not have been real. Should they be evidence?
Or a "found" diary of his?
Maybe in a movie.....
His gold could have told more truth though. And where did it go with it's evidence of it's own source? Why? Because it was just gold ...Heck folks could have used it to study it's provenance and the art of doing such was known then. Why spend it/sell it when it could lead to much more? Unless it's source was known dirty.

 

[releventchair]

Another angle...
Proprietary rights are not the same as possession.
When some one holds a map that can be contested as to rights ....What actions can be expected if their activities suggest they hold such a map or maps?
Copies would be handy should they be altered. A "bait" if you will should some one demand , or simply steal them.
A convincing looking "original" hidden somewhere too would buy time if held at gunpoint and such a map be demanded.
The more maps ,the more confusion. Or deception; however you want to put it.

 

[somehiker]

Good points all. The problem with Travis's Dog & Pony Show is that once it's determined that the fabled tablets from ?? were made by the guy in the eye of the storm, a nagging doubt about arises that the whole shebang may be just a tempest in a teapot. "Original stones?" If these exist, why assume they are more than just Travis's earlier prototypes?

I agree, and that IS the crux of the matter. If these smaller, all the same color so-called "original stones" even exist as anything more than drawings on various scraps of paper, how can we be sure they weren't just another product based on Travis' vivid imagination. Travis' own mother had said Travis would sit out in her yard, carving those stones while copying from small pieces of paper. In fact, RG had said there were "blueprints" for the stones in the Travis collection. Why would he have to use drawings, blueprints or paper patterns....whatever you wish to call them, if he had any originals to go by ?
As Lynda (Lyn) has said, it's an evolving story, and I guess we have to remember that it's been "evolving" for a lot longer than the period where Travis himself was involved.