The "Peralta" Stone Maps --- On Their Own

[PotBelly Jim]

Hey Jim, I never said it was easy<g>. Might be easy for the geometry wizards, but not for me. But; (there goes that word..) If a fellow can find Polaris and find Orion's leading star in the east as it rises, and.... here's the hard part....that fellow can calculate the deviation from the heading he was "supposed to be on" it goes a long ways in being able to right your course. How far you have come is a different matter. The smart folks can make that calculation, not me, that's out of my league.

Ok, let me see if I get it now...so if one is standing in a certain spot say on DEC 21st, at sunset, then he looks up at Polaris, then looks over his right shoulder at Orion, now he knows exactly what direction to trudge off in...makes sense to use a winter constellation, especially one on the equator, if one's treasure is located in the desert...is that how the maps are set up?

 

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[Old]

Jim,

That's my theory, which granted, is a work in progress.

IMO, you have to adjust (slightly) the north page tablet orientation and use the declination inscribed. But; in raw basics, yes.

 

[Old]

Although Dec. 21 would be a good sunset to watch, I don't think its critical to forming the 90 degree angle necessary for calculations. Mintaka should be due East regardless of date. It rises on the celestial equator.

here's a star diagram of Orion with Mintaka, our East pointer, shown. Also note the delta symbol (4) associated with Mintaka. I'm sure that's a mere coincidence

View attachment 1608045

From: excerpt from Land Navigation.com

East and West by Mintaka
Now, back to Orion's belt. The three-star belt's lead star is Mintaka (min-TA-ka).
In my estimation, Mintaka is the second-most useful star for direction finding, bested only by Polaris. The reason for its usefulness is that it ALWAYS rises due east and sets due west, no matter where you are on earth.

In the northern hemisphere, Orion rises in the east on his back, travels across the southern sky, then sets on his face in the west. In the southern hemisphere, he likewise rises in the east on his back, but he travels across the northern sky to then set on his face in the west.

The closer you are to the Equator, the higher is Orion's path across the sky. At the Equator, Orion passes straight overhead. But, regardless of where you are on earth, Mintaka always rises due east and sets due west.

Because the horizon is often obscured from view by trees, mountains, or other obstacles, on any given night, chances are you won't see Mintaka at the moment it rises due east from below the horizon, but are most likely to see it some time later, when it's higher in the sky.

For the first two or three hours after Mintaka has risen, you can retrace its path back toward the horizon and to the spot from which it rose. To do so, imagine a line from Mintaka back to the horizon at an angle of 90 degrees minus your latitude, north or south, it doesn't matter. Where that line intersects the horizon is due east.

Conversely, two or three hours before Mintaka sets, you can find west by projecting its path forward to the horizon, once again at an angle of 90 degrees minus your latitude. Where your imaginary line intersects with the horizon is due west.

 

[markmar]

Ok, let me see if I get it now...so if one is standing in a certain spot say on DEC 21st, at sunset, then he looks up at Polaris, then looks over his right shoulder at Orion, now he knows exactly what direction to trudge off in...makes sense to use a winter constellation, especially one on the equator, if one's treasure is located in the desert...is that how the maps are set up?

If we supposed to be in Sonora desert , without mountains in our sight , at 21 December the Orion belt isn't visible because would rises at the east horizon line at about 12 noon .
In this zone the Orion belt is visible at the east horizon line from about 20 April at sunset till about 20 September at sunrise . From October to April the Orion is on the sky during daylight time .

 

[PotBelly Jim]

If we supposed to be in Sonora desert , without mountains in our sight , at 21 December the Orion belt isn't visible because would rises at the east horizon line at about 12 noon .
In this zone the Orion belt is visible at the east horizon line from about 20 April at sunset till about 20 September at sunrise . From October to April the Orion is on the sky during daylight time .

Ummm...no, mi amigo...Orion always rises around sunset on the winter solstice no matter where you are...

I wouldn't have been able to get these if I don't know where to point my telescope:

View attachment 1608074View attachment 1608075

Both are in the Orion constellation....

 

[PotBelly Jim]

Although Dec. 21 would be a good sunset to watch, I don't think its critical to forming the 90 degree angle necessary for calculations. Mintaka should be due East regardless of date. It rises on the celestial equator.

here's a star diagram of Orion with Mintaka, our East pointer, shown. Also note the delta symbol (4) associated with Mintaka. I'm sure that's a mere coincidence

View attachment 1608045

From: excerpt from Land Navigation.com

East and West by Mintaka
Now, back to Orion's belt. The three-star belt's lead star is Mintaka (min-TA-ka).
In my estimation, Mintaka is the second-most useful star for direction finding, bested only by Polaris. The reason for its usefulness is that it ALWAYS rises due east and sets due west, no matter where you are on earth.

In the northern hemisphere, Orion rises in the east on his back, travels across the southern sky, then sets on his face in the west. In the southern hemisphere, he likewise rises in the east on his back, but he travels across the northern sky to then set on his face in the west.

The closer you are to the Equator, the higher is Orion's path across the sky. At the Equator, Orion passes straight overhead. But, regardless of where you are on earth, Mintaka always rises due east and sets due west.

Because the horizon is often obscured from view by trees, mountains, or other obstacles, on any given night, chances are you won't see Mintaka at the moment it rises due east from below the horizon, but are most likely to see it some time later, when it's higher in the sky.

For the first two or three hours after Mintaka has risen, you can retrace its path back toward the horizon and to the spot from which it rose. To do so, imagine a line from Mintaka back to the horizon at an angle of 90 degrees minus your latitude, north or south, it doesn't matter. Where that line intersects the horizon is due east.

Conversely, two or three hours before Mintaka sets, you can find west by projecting its path forward to the horizon, once again at an angle of 90 degrees minus your latitude. Where your imaginary line intersects with the horizon is due west.

Hi Lynda...for some reason, I was unable to open the attachment ... anyway, I'm familiar with the constellation...Mintaka is actually a binary star, (multiple) and the Delta symbol is in regards to it's brightness...as you know, I'm unfamiliar with the stone maps, so I'm having a hard time with this and I appreciate your patience...

I think the 90 degree angle with Polaris is only going to be formed when Orion rises (which is why I chose DEC 21 as the date) and when it sets...for example, as the earth rotates, Orion will eventually appear to be directly due south of Polaris...

 

[Old]

Marcus maybe where you are. But; I've had long phone conversations with some folks in Arizona and we were looking (and marveling) at Orion simultaneously.

My place and ground zero Arizona is about 3 1/2 degrees of parallel difference. Orion is an old companion to me. In late winter and early spring, I watch him rise and move across the sky often when I'm on foal watch with the horses. Granted he's a late riser later in the year but he's there and pulling Sirius along with him.

 

[Old]

Wow, beautiful picture Jim.

 

[PotBelly Jim]

Wow, beautiful picture Jim.

Thanks, both of them took several nights and thousands of pictures with different filters...then they were all combined in order to show all the gasses in the nebula....

Just in the interest of clarity for everyone reading this, Orion doesn't rise and set at different "times" depending on where you are on the earth...around the time of the winter solstice (DEC 21), Orion will rise in the east at sunset no matter where you are standing on the earth (unless you are so far down by either pole that it's below your horizon)...

I think this is important as it seems Orion has to be in the east in order for Lynda's map theory to work? Lynda, correct me if I'm wrong on that...anyway, for Orion to be in the eastern sky in relation to Polaris, one would have to be using the maps at sunset in the few weeks around DEC 21 in order for that to happen...if we were to try it in say, June, Orion wouldn't even be visible...

 

[nobodie]

Still too complicated.

 

[Real of Tayopa]

Hi nobody, the hird one is of Naranjal uper leftnear the skyline.

 

[deducer]

Still too complicated.

Yup. The genius of those Stone Maps isn't in their complicity, but in their simplicity. Those folks had gotten pretty good at hiding stuff over the years and they knew that the more complicated directions got, the more likely things were to stay lost.

Pretty difficult, yet simple, at the same time. There's a reason that the horse is so cartoonishly drawn. There is careful intention behind everything to those Stone Maps.

 

[PotBelly Jim]

When does Orion rise in the east?

I'm not sure I'm on the right track here, as far as being able to see Orion on the eastern horizon, at sunset...for example, a party of people could arrive at a specific spot during the day, then sit there and wait until Orion rises...so for about 5 months out of the year, Orion will appear on the eastern horizon at some time during the night.

This is easily calculated, I'll spare the gory details...just assume any star is going to rise 4 minutes earlier each day.

Liking things even easier, I just went to the Navy and used their calculator...

Attached, for anyone faintly interested, is a list of times/dates that Orion will be visible on the eastern horizon at some point during the night. I didn't bother going too far past the winter solstice, as about that time Orion won't be visible on the eastern horizon, it will be somewhere above the eastern horizon when the sun sets and it becomes visible...

View attachment 1608282

 

[Old]

Jim wrote: .........it will be somewhere above the eastern horizon when the sun sets and it becomes visible...

That's when you use your cross staff (hint, hint) to track it back to its rising point on the horizon..... ok, ok, I'm hard headed. I'm sure that's not new news.

Thanks for the chart Jim, its helpful. As you can tell, Orion is one of my favorites. Looks like it is to you too.

My introduction to Orion was through my dad. As a young kid we would take the dogs and go coon hunting at night. Not to shoot anything but to hear the dogs run. Its a Southern "thing". You can get pretty turned around wondering around the creeks and swamps at night following the dogs. Old Orion (the hunter) could always get you back on track for the road home. Seeing him "up there" is a feeling of comfort and familiarity.

lyn

 

[sdcfia]

I agree with deducer - why make the use of your map more complicated than necessary? If you need an azimuth for direction of travel, why resort to celestial observations to obtain it, especially when you already know the answer? Just chisel those three numbers somewhere, somehow on the stones. Then, for ground travel in rugged mountains, all you would need is a starting point, a good compass and some well-placed backsights to assure your alignment.

Of course, the starting point would be the key for that scheme. If you're suggesting that this too can be obtained merely by celestial navigation techniques (lat/long), I would strongly disagree unless your acceptable margin of error would be measured in miles, not feet.

 

[PotBelly Jim]

Jim wrote: .........it will be somewhere above the eastern horizon when the sun sets and it becomes visible...

That's when you use your cross staff (hint, hint) to track it back to its rising point on the horizon..... ok, ok, I'm hard headed. I'm sure that's not new news.

Thanks for the chart Jim, its helpful. As you can tell, Orion is one of my favorites. Looks like it is to you too.

My introduction to Orion was through my dad. As a young kid we would take the dogs and go coon hunting at night. Not to shoot anything but to hear the dogs run. Its a Southern "thing". You can get pretty turned around wondering around the creeks and swamps at night following the dogs. Old Orion (the hunter) could always get you back on track for the road home. Seeing him "up there" is a feeling of comfort and familiarity.

lyn

Not hard-headed...I would say persistent...and I think you have a very interesting theory here. Personally, my mind shuts off every time I look at the stone maps...I can't make sense of any of it...just the way my brain works I guess...but I still find the whole thing interesting. I hope someone finds something with them someday!

Time to get the briskets on the smoker...big week here in North America...(belated)Happy Canada Day (drank a Labatt's, Somehiker) and Independence Day.

 

[markmar]

I'm not sure I'm on the right track here, as far as being able to see Orion on the eastern horizon, at sunset...for example, a party of people could arrive at a specific spot during the day, then sit there and wait until Orion rises...so for about 5 months out of the year, Orion will appear on the eastern horizon at some time during the night.

This is easily calculated, I'll spare the gory details...just assume any star is going to rise 4 minutes earlier each day.

Liking things even easier, I just went to the Navy and used their calculator...

Attached, for anyone faintly interested, is a list of times/dates that Orion will be visible on the eastern horizon at some point during the night. I didn't bother going too far past the winter solstice, as about that time Orion won't be visible on the eastern horizon, it will be somewhere above the eastern horizon when the sun sets and it becomes visible...

View attachment 1608282

Jim

I was talking about when you can see the Orion at the east horizon line durining the year passings . I didn't say the Orion isn't visible in the night sky during the period time from October to April .

 

[Old]

sdcfia wrote...........I would strongly disagree unless your acceptable margin of error would be measured in miles, not feet.


as to Point of Beginning....is 4 inches, gave or take, close enough. If so, I think I'm good <g>.

 

[markmar]

Yup. The genius of those Stone Maps isn't in their complicity, but in their simplicity. Those folks had gotten pretty good at hiding stuff over the years and they knew that the more complicated directions got, the more likely things were to stay lost.

Pretty difficult, yet simple, at the same time. There's a reason that the horse is so cartoonishly drawn. There is careful intention behind everything to those Stone Maps.

I agree with you . Also , speaking about maps for the Superstitions which used stars constellations , there are two maps :
One was made by Peraltas brothers where they used angle degrees from Polaris ( the Salazar survey spot ) , and an ancient ( older than Peraltas ) second one carved in stone by unknown owner ( mentioned by NP ) which is to use the Aquila constellation .

In the Peraltas map , for the Polaris measurement line they used as constant the El Sombrero , and for marking and ensure the target , they used another measurement line from Casa Caverna ( or capilla de Santa Fe ) to another spot which is crossing the first line exactly above the target .

For the second map I can't reveal the constant because this target is still undiscovered . But I can say this , how from Casa Caverna are the same distances to both Peraltas map target and Aquila map target . If we connect with lines the two targets from the maps ( which used constellations ) with the Casa Caverna , then we will have an isosceles triangle with Casa Caverna on top . This shows how the Casa Caverna was builded as survey point and the Peraltas map target was more ancient than Peraltas activities in the Superstitions .

 

[OldManOfTheRiver]

I hate to say it but at first the Peralta Stones intrigued me. Then I got to thinking. Why would anyone carve maps in stone when they already knew the way themselves? Secondly why would *anyone* carve so many stones adding to the weight of a burro through harsh dry desert when they could be carrying supplies or gold back to Mexico? The stones are not real in my opinion. I'd like someone to prove that they lead to a treasure or to a gold deposit but they are undecipherable. They are undecipherable because they lead nowhere.

If the Peralta Stones were on a burro that escaped the massacre grounds where were the saddle bag remnants? As recently as 1962 dry rotted saddle bags of ore were found by Kochera, but with the Peralta stones there were no saddle bags remaining and you have to ask yourself why anyone on the Peralta Expedition would take the time to carve and carry heavy stones that could break when they already knew the way to the mine or horde....

Does anyone else see my reasoning here? The Peralta Expedition didn't expect to be massacred, so why take the time to carve ornate meaningless maps in heavy sandstone, and one fired (clay) heart with the equivalent of Chinese badly translated when they ALREADY KNEW THE WAY.

Makes no sense. The Peralta's could have found a mine for sure and they could have returned any time they wished. They didn't need 5 or 7 stones to find the way.