The Knights Templar connection to Oak Island Challenge

[sasquash]

Where Did the Myth of the Lost Templar Fleet and Its Transoceanic Voyage Come From? - Jason Colavito


A very good read.....nuff said

Interesting !

 

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[Dave Rishar]

And I asked you to prove it

Careful with that. I asked for proof and seem to have had a post go missing.

 

[ECS]

...Yes there is proof the fibres discovered on Oak Island were coconut...

...but how does one reach the conclusion that these coconut fibers are genuine Templar coconut fibers as you constantly claim as one basis for your Templars at Oak Island premise?

 

[Al D]

Careful with that. I asked for proof and seem to have had a post go missing.

No, you asked for evidence of a theory, which I never stated as fact.

 

[ECS]

They worked, lived and traded with Arab sailors for almost 200 years, it would be certain that they used Arab materials.
Again this is a ridiculous statement by you.

Making the claim that the alleged coconut coir fiber found on Oak Island is proof of a Templar connection to Oak Island is a ridiculous statement.
'nuff said.

 

[ECS]

...
The only mention of a "lost Templar fleet" came from the Papal torture interrogation testimony of Brother Jean de Chalons:
"The leaders of the Order fled, and he himself met Brother de Villiers leading fifty horses; and he heard it said that he set out to sea with eighteen galleys and that Brother Hugues de Chalons fled with the whole treasure of Brother Hugues de Pairaud"
VATICAN ARCHIVE- REGISTRA AVENIONENSIA 48f450r June 1308
Note that de Chalons stated that "he heard it said", which is NOT an eye witness account, and remember this is the ONLY documented account of 18 galleys (NOT WARSHIPS) setting out to sea with "treasure".

Quasi alternative historians Baigent and Leigh were the first to use this account and expanded this man's tortured testimony to what many now accept as fact that 18 Templar ships escaped from La Rochelle.

The other piece of "evidence" you claim for your Templar connection to Oak Island, is based on the only documented mention of the 18 galleys escaping from La Rochelle, a hearsay (he heard it said) account from a tortured man, who would probably say anything to his torturers for it to end.
"He heard it said" is not proof positive that any galleys escaped from La Rochelle, and as mentioned , that is the ONLY contemporary documentation or mention from that period.
'nuff said.

 

[ECS]

...What is becoming extremely funny is when you lose an argument you write "what has this to do with Oak Island" and I will reply ahead of time "everything"!

Doesn't appear that I'm losing an argument with your constant predictable replies that are always full of sound and fury, but signify nothing.
"everything"- Now that was a good one!

 

[ECS]

I have to leave now, but I will be back tomorrow with the info on the fleet...

Hopefully you will post a contemporary quote, not second hand hearsay or assumption, and most importantly, cite the source material origin.

 

[lokiblossom]

Proof of a constant Knights Templar naval presence!

The fact is that even though originally formed as primarily a horseback fighting force, an identity they never relinquished, the knights Templar, since the beginning of the early 13th century, had always maintained a strong naval presence throughout the rest of their relatively short existence.

Michael Hagg, pg. 138; in referring to both the Templars and Hospitallers, "They each received donations of property in Europe which soon made them wealthy. Each order levied its own taxes, had its own diplomatic service and possessed its own fleet of ships. In effect, the Hospitalliers and the Templars were states within the state".
pg. 139; "The Templars also built ships in European ports, everywhere between Spain and the Dalmation coast".

Piers Paul Read writes in "The Templars", pg 215;, "By the mid-twelfth century the Order (Templars) had built its own fleet of galleys which transported horses, grain, arms, pilgrims and military personnel".

Charles Addison writes in "The History of the Knights Templar", pg, 155; "It was in the month of May AD 1218 that the galleys of the Templars set sail from Acre on the... memorable expedition to Egypt".

Addison again, pg, 156; "In 1222 the Grand Master describes various military operations, the great number of galleys fitted out by the Saracens to intercept the supplies and succor from Europe, and the arming of the galleys, galliots, and other vessels of the Order to oppose them, and clear the seas of the infidel flag".

Addison, pg. 172; "In 1244 the galleys of the Order kept command of the sea".

Read again, pg. 237; In 1274 at the Council of Lyons, both Orders, the Hospitalliers and the Templars were ordered to build a fleet of warships with the purpose of blockading Egyptian ports. The argument that had been presented being, that the Crusaders could no longer count on buying vessels from the Italian shipbuilders, such as the Venetians, as their trade with Egypt had become very profitable, implying the Italians may hedge on supplying ships to an enemy of Egypt".

In 1291 Templar galleys were known to be present at the fall of Acre and were very much involved in the excavations to Cyprus, which then became Templar headquarters.
Charles Addison writes of this event, pg. 186; The sea was open; the harbor was filled with Christian vessels, and the galleys of the Temple and Hospital".

Again, according to Piers Paul Read, pg. 252; "Cargo ships were built to carry the Templar cargos and in 1293 six galleys were purchased from Venice. These formed part of a fleet that in July 1300 made a number of raids on the coast of Egypt and Syria, and in November, transported a force of 600 knights to Ruad as a base for an assault on Tortosa".

Although the raid on Tortosa never happened, as the base was defeated, there is no mention of the galleys being there or any of them being lost.


Cheers, Loki

 

[ECS]

You posted the sources of you quotes, but none are contemporary to the Templars period, but second hand information from your august group of "well respected Templar historians".
What are their sources and are their sources documents from the Templar period or just built upon hearsay like Brother Jean de Chalons tortured confession of what "he heard said" concerning 18 galleys setting out to sea with another Brothers treasure?
Chalons Vatican documented confession has been expanded many times over to create this myth of a Templar connection to Oak Island.
With the embellishment of Chalons confession addressed, How large was this Templar fleet of galleys, galliots, and who did these other Christian vessels belong that are mentioned by Charles Addison on page 186?
PS: It is interesting to note Charles Addison's Victorian prose and attitude throughout this work, when the sun never set on the British Empire.

 

[Al D]

I think this answers the question of the mythological Templar fleet.

 

[lokiblossom]

I think this answers the question of the mythological Templar fleet.

Please explain if you can how that makes a Templar fleet mythical?

By posting all of those quotes from respected Templar historians I have proven the Templars did have a fleet of ships by around 1150 and that they did base that fleet at their Cyprus headquarters for at least the last 16 years of the Order's existence.

What I did not prove is the number of ships in their fleet or any connection to Nova Scotia.
I will show next that they did leave Cyprus on the order of Pope Clement V in 1306 to come to France without delay with gold and other treasures along with 60 knights, which they did in 1307!

Cheers, Loki

 

[Al D]

Please explain if you can how that makes a Templar fleet mythical?

By posting all of those quotes from respected Templar historians I have proven the Templars did have a fleet of ships by around 1150 and that they did base that fleet at their Cyprus headquarters for at least the last 16 years of the Order's existence.

What I did not prove is the number of ships in their fleet or any connection to Nova Scotia.
I will show next that they did leave Cyprus on the order of Pope Clement V in 1306 to come to France without delay with gold and other treasures along with 60 knights, which they did in 1307!

Cheers, Loki

It is simple...really, if the Templars had a fleet, they would have used it to rescue their brethren instead of leaving them to starve to death.

 

[lokiblossom]

It is simple...really, if the Templars had a fleet, they would have used it to rescue their brethren instead of leaving them to starve to death.

Yep, you just did prove something to me, but I don't think it was what you had intended!

Cheers, Loki

 

[ECS]

...By posting all of those quotes from respected Templar historians I have proven the Templars did have a fleet of ships by around 1150 and that they did base that fleet at their Cyprus headquarters for at least the last 16 years of the Order's existence...

All you have accomplished with these quotes is posting second hand information from these authors, but what are their sources of information? Is it derived from Vatican Archives, Templar documents, or passed down lore through the Freemasons?
Example: What is Charles Addison's source for this statement- " the harbor was filled with Christian vessels, and the galleys of the Temple and Hospital"?
PS: You seem to avoid discussing the 1308 tortured testimony of Templar Brother Jean de Chalons on which the Templar escape of 18 galleys from La Rochelle and all the legends of the lost Templar fleet are based, including a speculative connection to Oak Island.
Most interrogation experts concur that information acquired through torture is NOT RELIABLE nor DEPENDABLE as being TRUE.
Remember, Chalons testimony is the ONLY account and sole source of the 18 galley escape story.

 

[ECS]

... There is no way historians would have known about a few Templar ships wintering in the Loch...I still premise a few ships wintering at Ardchattan in 1307-08, then leaving for Vinland following the Viking routes, eventually dropping cargo holds filled with coconut fibre on Oak Island.
Of course I still premise 18 Templar vessels leaving La Rochelle in September of 1307!

If there is "no way historians would have known", where does this information originate?
IMAGINATION and filling in many many blanks with speculation?
What was the purpose of Templar cargo holds filled with Coconut coir?
Which of the "respected Templar historians" discussed the Templar obsession and need for coconut coir?
As for 18 ships leaving La Rochelle, the only source of that tale is highly suspect.
None of this presents a solid base for a premise, Loki.

 

[lokiblossom]

All you have accomplished with these quotes is posting second hand information from these authors, but what are their sources of information? Is it derived from Vatican Archives, Templar documents, or passed down lore through the Freemasons?
Example: What is Charles Addison's source for this statement- " the harbor was filled with Christian vessels, and the galleys of the Temple and Hospital"?
PS: You seem to avoid discussing the 1308 tortured testimony of Templar Brother Jean de Chalons on which the Templar escape of 18 galleys from La Rochelle and all the legends of the lost Templar fleet are based, including a speculative connection to Oak Island.
Most interrogation experts concur that information acquired through torture is NOT RELIABLE nor DEPENDABLE as being TRUE.
Remember, Chalons testimony is the ONLT account and sole source of the 18 galley escape story.

This is only a forum for discussion and that is all that you will get from me. It is enough for me to write that the three of them are creditable Templar historians. Now where is your information that they only write alternative Templar history?You made that statement, now show me why I shouldn't believe them. You can discredit a good historian and not back it up?

And I will get into de Chalons just wait and see!

Cheers, Loki

 

[ECS]

... I consider myself somewhat of a Templar Historian!...

Then you should be aware of what is real documented history and the difference between contemporary source material and not second paraphrasing, and what is speculative fabrications, of which there is an abundance of Templar pseudo fact/fiction books with claims of being suppressed history finally revealed.

 

[Al D]

Yep, you just did prove something to me, but I don't think it was what you had intended!

Cheers, Loki

Maybe you need to read the info again, take it slow so that you don’t get confused.

 

[ECS]

This is only a forum for discussion and that is all that you will get from me. It is enough for me to write that the three of them are creditable Templar historians. Now where is your information that they only write alternative Templar history?You made that statement, now show me why I shouldn't believe them. You can discredit a good historian and not back it up?

One question, Loki:
Are you able to present their Academic Credentials and DEGREES from University as historians?