The Knights Templar connection to Oak Island Challenge

[Dave Rishar]

No, you asked for evidence of a theory, which I never stated as fact.

I wasn't talking about anything that I'd said to you. It was merely a warning in general that when you start pushing believers for facts, your posts can sometimes disappear - something that recently happened to me, and not for the first time.

Did one of my posts to you disappear too? I can't even keep track of them anymore.

 

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[ECS]

... I will get into de Chalons just wait and see!

Due to his recorded testimony given while under torture by Vatican interrogators which is the sole source of the 18 Templar galleys setting to sea to escape Vatican retribution for alleged heresy, a testimony that has given rise to every manner of speculation, including Templars at Oak Island, it is known that de Chalon never escaped or sailed to Oak Island.
With that said, a history of de Chalon presented with quotes from amateur and quasi historians is not needed as other actual Templar historical facts presented in this discussion for these actual historical facts have nothing to do with proving a presence or any evidence concerning a Templar connection to Oak Island.

 

[ECS]

...
The only mention of a "lost Templar fleet" came from the Papal torture interrogation testimony of Brother Jean de Chalons:
"The leaders of the Order fled, and he himself met Brother de Villiers leading fifty horses; and he heard it said that he set out to sea with eighteen galleys and that Brother Hugues de Chalons fled with the whole treasure of Brother Hugues de Pairaud"

VATICAN ARCHIVE- REGISTRA AVENIONENSIA 48f450r June 1308...

Take another look at Templar Brother Jean de Chalons testimony concerning the 18 galleys.
La Rochelle is NOT mentioned, and galleys are mentioned, but NOT ships.
Galleys were employed by the Templars in the Mediterranean where they maintained several French ports, including Marseille.
A galley has a shallow draft designed for sailing the Mediterranean, but is not fit or sea worthy for the Atlantic, where the Templar port of La Rochelle is located.
*NOTE* No galleys were harboured at La Rochelle, only ships fit for ocean travel.
Another aspect to consider, with all of King Phillip the Fair's horses and men hunting down the Templars, would this mass Templar flight to La Rochelle go unnoticed or that the La Rochelle port be seized with Phillip's soldiers in wait?
After all, this operation against the Templars was planned in advance.

Returning to the ONLY mention of this Templar escape- what "well respected Templar historian" made the change from de Chalon's galleys to "ships", and who added the port of La Rochelle which is never mentioned in his testimony?

 

[Al D]

Take another look at Templar Brother Jean de Chalons testimony concerning the 18 galleys.
La Rochelle is NOT mentioned, and galleys are mentioned, but NOT ships.
Galleys were employed by the Templars in the Mediterranean where they maintained several French ports, including Marseille.
A galley has a shallow draft designed for sailing the Mediterranean, but is not fit or sea worthy for the Atlantic, where the Templar port of La Rochelle is located.
*NOTE* No galleys were harboured at La Rochelle, only ships fit for ocean travel.
Another aspect to consider, with all of King Phillip the Fair's horses and men hunting down the Templars, would this mass Templar flight to La Rochelle go unnoticed or that the La Rochelle port be seized with Phillip's soldiers in wait?
After all, this operation against the Templars was planned in advance.

Returning to the ONLY mention of this Templar escape- what "well respected Templar historian" made the change from de Chalon's galleys to "ships", and who added the port of La Rochelle which is never mentioned in his testimony?

Very good points
another one to consider is this; in 1307 an ocean vessel was akin to a nuclear weapon today, there is no way that the king would have not known about any ocean capable vessels belonging to the Templars, nor do I think he would have allowed them to port there.

 

[Al D]

Did one of my posts to you disappear too? I can't even keep track of them anymore.

I do not know, it is possible though

 

[ECS]

...
By posting all of those quotes from respected Templar historians I have proven the Templars did have a fleet of ships by around 1150 ...

All the quotes from "respected Templar historians" mention galleys employed for carrying cargo, pilgrims, horses, arms, and men.
A oar powered wide cargo low side galley used by the Templars could have up to 180 oarsmen and 3 square rigged sails.
The Templars also had a very small compliment of slender galleys also low sided to the water, GALLEE SOTTIER, that were faster and used for hand to hand engagements with enemy galleys.
Which brings us to "ships" that were used on the Atlantic off shore coast from Spain up to the low countries and the Hanseatic League from the 11th to 14th century.
It was a single mast square rigged sail vessel called a COG, with steep sides and a flat bottom that sailed within the sight of shore and up and down rivers. A Mediterranean version of the COG, the COCHA, was introduced in the early 1300's.
While it is known the Templars utilized galleys, the leased or hired with crew cargo galleys, and the few slender battle galleys used mainly as escorts for the larger slower cargo galleys, there is NO record of the Templars owning COGs.

 

[lokiblossom]

Very good points
another one to consider is this; in 1307 an ocean vessel was akin to a nuclear weapon today, there is no way that the king would have not known about any ocean capable vessels belonging to the Templars, nor do I think he would have allowed them to port there.

Lol, you are very good at making these silly statements. You really should look into a little history before you post!

Where do you think the port of La Rochelle was, and do you really believe that any vessel capable of sailing the Mediterranean couldn't sail on the ocean?

Cheers, Loki

 

[lokiblossom]

Take another look at Templar Brother Jean de Chalons testimony concerning the 18 galleys.
La Rochelle is NOT mentioned, and galleys are mentioned, but NOT ships.
Galleys were employed by the Templars in the Mediterranean where they maintained several French ports, including Marseille.
A galley has a shallow draft designed for sailing the Mediterranean, but is not fit or sea worthy for the Atlantic, where the Templar port of La Rochelle is located.
*NOTE* No galleys were harboured at La Rochelle, only ships fit for ocean travel.
Another aspect to consider, with all of King Phillip the Fair's horses and men hunting down the Templars, would this mass Templar flight to La Rochelle go unnoticed or that the La Rochelle port be seized with Phillip's soldiers in wait?
After all, this operation against the Templars was planned in advance.

Returning to the ONLY mention of this Templar escape- what "well respected Templar historian" made the change from de Chalon's galleys to "ships", and who added the port of La Rochelle which is never mentioned in his testimony?

Hmm, I had always thought a galley was a type of ship. Yep, de Chalons did mention galleys which is a ship or vessel. Any vessel capable of traversing the Mediterranean was also capable of traversing the Atlantic, anybody who doesn't believe this has never seen the Great Lakes!

Although the description of a galley is usually that of an oared vessel with a small sail fitted, some of these such as the Genoese, and Venetian types of the late 13th century (probably those bought by the Templars) had evolved into primarily sailing vessels, even at this, they still featured oars to be used for entering and leaving ports of call. Or they could be called upon to produce propulsion if need be.

Cheers, Loki

 

[lokiblossom]

Take another look at Templar Brother Jean de Chalons testimony concerning the 18 galleys.
La Rochelle is NOT mentioned, and galleys are mentioned, but NOT ships.
Galleys were employed by the Templars in the Mediterranean where they maintained several French ports, including Marseille.
A galley has a shallow draft designed for sailing the Mediterranean, but is not fit or sea worthy for the Atlantic, where the Templar port of La Rochelle is located.
*NOTE* No galleys were harboured at La Rochelle, only ships fit for ocean travel.
Another aspect to consider, with all of King Phillip the Fair's horses and men hunting down the Templars, would this mass Templar flight to La Rochelle go unnoticed or that the La Rochelle port be seized with Phillip's soldiers in wait?
After all, this operation against the Templars was planned in advance.

Part of de Chalon's testimony was that they knew of the trouble in advance, probably at least a month or maybe longer. When the Templars sailed to La Rochelle under orders from the Pope they were in the Atlantic!!! They were to meet Clement in Poitiers btw!

Oh, and another point, de Chalons testified that he personally met Gerard de Villiers leading 50 horses after which he mentioned everybody fleeing and added that he heard people talking about Villiers leaving with 18 galleys. One person cannot lead 50 horses, so there had to be quite a few more men with Villiers.

Cheers, Loki

 

[Al D]

Lol, you are very good at making these silly statements. You really should look into a little history before you post!

Where do you think the port of La Rochelle was, and do you really believe that any vessel capable of sailing the Mediterranean couldn't sail on the ocean?

Cheers, Loki

You obviously have never sailed in the Atlantic, just another arm chair know it all

 

[lokiblossom]

This about La Rochelle from the calendar of patent rolls 1225-1235 "The Knights Templar in Britain" Evelyn Lord pg. 120; "their main fleet was in La Rochelle, and it was this fleet, berthed away from the theatre of war, that was part of the maritime network linking the Order with in the British Isles, with the continent".

Cheers, Loki

 

[lokiblossom]

You obviously have never sailed in the Atlantic, just another arm chair know it all

I did sail in the Atlantic in my own sloop, and in the Great Lakes! I also flew my own airplanes over the Atlantic and the Great Lakes! I am actually quite experienced, I don't consider myself an arm chair know-it-all !

Cheers, Loki

 

[ECS]

... I don't consider myself an arm chair know-it-all !

Yet all your information is based from books you read these "well respected historians", who actually employed history writing as a sideline, NOT AS A PROFESSION as a true academic historian- Addison was a layer, Haag and Read, authors of both fiction and non fiction works, not all historical studies or works, are self described as "historians", which provides great leeway in accuracy of facts.

 

[lokiblossom]

Yet all your information is based from books you read these "well respected historians", who actually employed history writing as a sideline, NOT AS A PROFESSION as a true academic historian- Addison was a layer, Haag and Read, authors of both fiction and non fiction works, not all historical studies or works, are self described as "historians", which provides great leeway in accuracy of facts.

Not actually worth responding to as you cannot tell me what you read that makes you think these three write alternative history. I also use information from Malcolm Barber and Evelyn Lord btw.

If you would check the facts you would see that they are all accurate. Your next statement should be, if your true to form "what does this have to do with Oak Island"? One of the first arguments against my premise is that the Templars weren't capable (because of experience and vessels) of sailing to North America. These last few pages have proven that a non issue.

I see that you liked someone calling me an "arm chair know it all".

Cheers, Loki

 

[ECS]

... another point, de Chalons testified that he personally met Gerard de Villiers leading 50 horses after which he mentioned everybody fleeing and added that he heard people talking about Villiers leaving with 18 galleys. One person cannot lead 50 horses, so there had to be quite a few more men with Villiers.

Did de Chalons mention "mention everybody fleeing" or that "he heard it said that he set out to sea with eighteen galleys".
Heard it said is hearsay , de Chalons had NO Direct knowledge of this actually occurred, or if there actually were eighteen galleys that set out to sea.
AND, once again, La Rochelle is NOT MENTIONED in de Chalons testimony.
Considering that de Chalons testimony is the ONLY documented source of this 18 galley escape, what is your source that this escape was from La Rochelle, and not a Mediterranean port.
He also states that de Villers was leading 50 horses, there is NO mention of any others , just de Villers, and yes, one man can lead 50 horses.
Now lets go what so far has been overlooked in de Chalons confession, "the whole treasure of Brother Hugues de Pairaud", which given rise to Templar treasure buried at Oak Island, and other locations.
According to de Chalons, which he also "heard it said" Brother Hugues de Chalons fled with this treasure, but does not state if he set to sea in one of the 18 galleys, or fled somewhere else, or what this treasure was, or how large, or if it needed to be carried in a wagon- just " the whole treasure".
Its this portion of de Chalons confession under Vatican torture that all the lore and legends of lost Templar treasure sprung, and so many amateur historians and the quasi historians exploit to sell their "secret unknown history " books , while actual credited respected academic historians place no credence whatsoever.

 

[ECS]

...
I see that you liked someone calling me an "arm chair know it all".

If the chair fits, sit in it.
Oh, you have already taken a seat.
Carry on.

 

[Al D]

I did sail in the Atlantic in my own sloop, and in the Great Lakes! I also flew my own airplanes over the Atlantic and the Great Lakes! I am actually quite experienced, I don't consider myself an arm chair know-it-all !

Cheers, Loki

You must be a regular Buckaroo Bonzai?
Made me laugh so hard I almost pissed myself

 

[lokiblossom]

Did de Chalons mention "mention everybody fleeing" or that "he heard it said that he set out to sea with eighteen galleys".
Heard it said is hearsay , de Chalons had NO Direct knowledge of this actually occurred, or if there actually were eighteen galleys that set out to sea.
AND, once again, La Rochelle is NOT MENTIONED in de Chalons testimony.
Considering that de Chalons testimony is the ONLY documented source of this 18 galley escape, what is your source that this escape was from La Rochelle, and not a Mediterranean port.
He also states that de Villers was leading 50 horses, there is NO mention of any others , just de Villers, and yes, one man can lead 50 horses.
Now lets go what so far has been overlooked in de Chalons confession, "the whole treasure of Brother Hugues de Pairaud", which given rise to Templar treasure buried at Oak Island, and other locations.
According to de Chalons, which he also "heard it said" Brother Hugues de Chalons fled with this treasure, but does not state if he set to sea in one of the 18 galleys, or fled somewhere else, or what this treasure was, or how large, or if it needed to be carried in a wagon- just " the whole treasure".
Its this portion of de Chalons confession under Vatican torture that all the lore and legends of lost Templar treasure sprung, and so many amateur historians and the quasi historians exploit to sell their "secret unknown history " books , while actual credited respected academic historians place no credence whatsoever.

That was my point, de Villiers leading 50 horses was actually seen by de Chalons. And, no one man cannot lead 50 horses, I know this from experience, one man would have all he could do with 10, and that only on a good road.

Also, we don't know that de Chalons was tortured, and whatever happened, what could he have possibly gained from lying?

Again, what don't you agree with that Addison, Haag or Read wrote that makes you describe them as "alternative historians"?

Cheers, Loki

 

[lokiblossom]

You must be a regular Buckaroo Bonzai?
Made me laugh so hard I almost pissed myself

Why try so hard to belittle somebody, you have no idea what I am about. Pissed yourself ah, cool!

Cheers, Loki

 

[lokiblossom]

If the chair fits, sit in it.
Oh, you have already taken a seat.
Carry on.

Same for you, you have no idea what I am about!

Cheers, Loki