The Knights Templar connection to Oak Island Challenge

[lokiblossom]

I don't know. Maybe it's because your 'premise' is about the Templars in the New World, not Polynesians, Chinese, or Venetians.

Why are you choosing to ignore any questions asking you to clarify what it is about the fiber that leads you to believe that it is Templar in origin?

Because the Templars were documented to have been based for over 200 years in the only area relative to the Atlantic Ocean that coconut fibre (coir) was available that could be dated to the same or similar time span as that dated on Oak Island!

Because they are the only ones to have been ordered from their base in the Middle East (Cyprus) to an Atlantic Port during the correct time period!

Because there is no pre-Columbian documentation of anybody with access to the fibre in the correct time period having sailed to the so-called New World!

Because many Templars were documented to have disappeared from France with testimony that some 18 vessels left the Atlantic Port during the correct time period and were never seen again! I can document from historical reports that 18 vessels at La Rochelle was a distinct possibility in the Summer of 1307.

Because these same Templars had reason to disappear and also hide out from authorities. We do know that some of the 2500 French Templars unaccounted for went to Scotland and some to Portugal (where they did not yet know they wouldn't be prosecuted). One Knight in particular, Gerard de Villers who had just been appointed new Grand Master became the most wanted man in France and was never seen again and was also the Knight included in the testimony as leaving with the 18 vessels.

Because if anybody had made that same voyage in 1308 or thereabouts it would have been well recorded!

Because a belief that it was Chinese or Polynesians that had made a pre-Columbian voyage to Nova Scotia is way more far-fetched than your owns doubts of the
Solutrean Theory!

If that isn't enough to at least be called circumstantial evidence then I would certainly request you for the jury if I or any of my friends are ever tried for anything criminal.

Cheers, Loki

 

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[lokiblossom]

So you claim that it can't be the Norse because they weren't trading in the ME in that period. Are you certain of that? Are you sure that there was not one single Norse trader dealing in the ME at that time?

No, even though their trading period in the Med. was much earlier of course I can't be certain of that, but if so, would that one or even a few Norse vessels leave the Middle East at the far Eastern end of the Mediterranean, cross that sea from East to West and then sail to the New World, or even sail to some Norse port leaving that port fairly soon with the same vessels and head to the far West of even Greenland, further even than l'anse meadows, this at a time when the Western settlements were failing? Certainly its possible but logic tells me probably not.

Cheers, Loki

 

[ECS]

...
Because if anybody had made that same voyage in 1308 or thereabouts it would have been well recorded!

With that statement you assume that the Templars made an unrecorded grand voyage.
...and where do you assume the Templars voyaged to where in 1308 if they actually had a fleet of 18 ships?
If you have historical documents that can prove this voyage occurred, please cite the source.

The first mention of the Templars having a fleet was in the 1948 book of fictional short stories, "LES GENTILHOMMES" by French fiction author, Jean de la Varende.
In 1967, French fringe history writer, Louis Charpentier, expounded on the idea of a Templar fleet in his "LES MYSTERES TEMPLERS", using Varende as a source.
Then the Templar Grail Holy Bloodline fringe history books by Picknett & Prince, Baigent & Leigh, and Andrew Sinclair's "THE SWORD AND THE GRAIL" all refer to this Templar fleet and voyage that was never mentioned before 1948, and mostly likely, never existed.

 

[Charlie P. (NY)]

Because a belief that it was Chinese or Polynesians that had made a pre-Columbian voyage to Nova Scotia is way more far-fetched than your owns doubts of the
Solutrean Theory!

Whoa! How did we now jump to the bombastically improbable Solutrean Theory from the only likely very improbable Templar Theory and disregarding the nobody-even-suggested-but-presented-jokingly-as-a-tongue-in-cheek-just-as-likely-in-the-realm-of-improbable Chinese or Polynesian Theories when the "Nothing to see here, it's not any of those" Theory is still WAY in the lead?

 

[Raparee]

Because the Templars were documented to have been based for over 200 years in the only area relative to the Atlantic Ocean that coconut fibre (coir) was available that could be dated to the same or similar time span as that dated on Oak Island!

Why are you ignoring any of the other groups that also would have had access to this fiber at this time? Were the KT the only ones using this fiber at this point in history?

Because they are the only ones to have been ordered from their base in the Middle East (Cyprus) to an Atlantic Port during the correct time period!

Irrelevant to the fibers on OI and how they got there.

Because there is no pre-Columbian documentation of anybody with access to the fibre in the correct time period having sailed to the so-called New World!

That's true, and this statement applies to the KT as well.

Because many Templars were documented to have disappeared from France with testimony that some 18 vessels left the Atlantic Port during the correct time period and were never seen again! I can document from historical reports that 18 vessels at La Rochelle was a distinct possibility in the Summer of 1307.

Irrelevant. Even if this is true, there is nothing to connect these 'missing ships' with the fiber or to a trans Atlantic trip.

Because these same Templars had reason to disappear and also hide out from authorities. We do know that some of the 2500 French Templars unaccounted for went to Scotland and some to Portugal (where they did not yet know they wouldn't be prosecuted). One Knight in particular, Gerard de Villers who had just been appointed new Grand Master became the most wanted man in France and was never seen again and was also the Knight included in the testimony as leaving with the 18 vessels.

Irrelevant.

Because if anybody had made that same voyage in 1308 or thereabouts it would have been well recorded!

Yup. If ANYONE had made that voyage in 1308 or thereabouts, it would have been well recorded.

Because a belief that it was Chinese or Polynesians that had made a pre-Columbian voyage to Nova Scotia is way more far-fetched than your owns doubts of the
Solutrean Theory!

The idea of Chinese or Polynesians visiting this coast of North America is no more far fetched than the KT doing so at that point in history. There is as much evidence for the KT being here as there is for the Polynesians, Chinese, Arabians, or Indians ... none.

 

[etex]

It was the Romans, not the Templar’s, prove me wrong you doubters

 

[cachenut]

Invaders usually attack to get gold and jewels not bury them. Who had money to deposit? templars sound good. Romans unlikely. Vikings unlikely. Pirates unlikely. french Perhaps. Indians no. English doubtful. Spanish unlikely. Who had a big interest in the new world early on. French, english, Spanish. French templars sound best to me.

 

[ECS]

...

Because many Templars were documented to have disappeared from France with testimony that some 18 vessels left the Atlantic Port during the correct time period and were never seen again!
I can document from historical reports that 18 vessels at La Rochelle was a distinct possibility in the Summer of 1307...

Please cite the documentation of "historical reports" that the Templars had a fleet of 18 vessels that were larger than small boats and trade galleys that could cross the Atlantic, AND that they left the La Rochelle.

 

[sasquash]

Enjoy,

 

[sasquash]

Thank you for citing the source.
...but according to the dialog you provided, it was NOT presented as solid evidence that the Templar's were in Nova Scotia, or that a Templar marked that rock with a cross.

You should contact Gérard Leduc

https://www.shbbhs.com/index.php/fr/activites/conferences-passees/366-conference-de-gerard-leduc-hors-serie-pre-histoire-en-amerique

 

[ECS]

You should contact Gérard Leduc

https://www.shbbhs.com/index.php/fr/activites/conferences-passees/366-conference-de-gerard-leduc-hors-serie-pre-histoire-en-amerique

Gerald Leduc theory of Templars in Canada is just that, a speculative theory based on "fringe historical research" on the maybe could be category.
While the Templars did have a "fleet" of shallow draft galleys and small boats that sailed the relativity calm Med, they did not have larger ships that could cross the Atlantic.

 

[lokiblossom]

Gerald Leduc theory of Templars in Canada is just that, a speculative theory based on "fringe historical research" on the maybe could be category.
While the Templars did have a "fleet" of shallow draft galleys and small boats that sailed the relativity calm Med, they did not have larger ships that could cross the Atlantic.

You meant relatively, right?

Relatively calm, indeed! That is probably the most ridiculous statement you have made to date. For one thing any ship that could sail the Mediterranean from end to end could also sail the Atlantic. The group who sailed the recent Viking ship replica to Bay City for its tall ship festival were surprised by the ferocity of the storms on our Great Lakes and they had just crossed the Atlantic. Using the Norse route no single over water leg need be over 300 miles. The Viking ship mentioned was about 4 days on the longest legs (A friend sailed on this vessel and this is from her reports). The Vikings continued to make the same trip well into the 14th century with vessels no larger.

As for the Templars, in 1300 they had just bought 5 venetian ships to add to the large Mediterranean fleet they already had. In 1307, when summoned to France by Pope Clement V they arrived with 60 Knights which would have include squires, 3 horses for each Knight, fighting equipment and supplies for the voyage plus 160,000 florins of gold and silver along with other treasures brought from Cyprus. These ships were sitting at port in La Rochelle for whenever they were needed. La Rochelle was run by the Knights Templar per a document from the Queen of France dated 1139. Also the Knights ran a lucrative wine trade from La Rochelle and had some 3 to 4 smaller vessels for trading along the Atlantic Coast all the way to Britain where they had a license to operate out of British ports.

Cheers, Loki

 

[ECS]

...

As for the Templars, in 1300 they had just bought 5 venetian ships to add to the large Mediterranean fleet they already had. In 1307, when summoned to France by Pope Clement V they arrived with 60 Knights which would have include squires, 3 horses for each Knight, fighting equipment and supplies for the voyage plus 160,000 florins of gold and silver along with other treasures brought from Cyprus. These ships were sitting at port in La Rochelle for whenever they were needed. La Rochelle was run by the Knights Templar per a document from the Queen of France dated 1139. Also the Knights ran a lucrative wine trade from La Rochelle and had some 3 to 4 smaller vessels for trading along the Atlantic Coast all the way to Britain where they had a license to operate out of British ports.

The Venetian ships you mentioned were used for the wine trade and were open deck oar/sail powered shallow draft galleys.
Navigating offshore along the coast to England in one of these galleys is NOT the same as crossing the Atlantic in one of these galleys, AND they were NOT similar to the Vikings long ships.
You mentioned a LARGE Mediterranean fleet, how many ships and types were in the Templar service in 1307, who were the captains and crew, as the Templars were not known as sailors and would hire ships including captains and crew, and please cite the source of your information.

 

[lokiblossom]

The Venetian ships you mentioned were used for the wine trade and were open deck oar/sail powered shallow draft galleys.
Navigating offshore along the coast to England in one of these galleys is NOT the same as crossing the Atlantic in one of these galleys, AND they were NOT similar to the Vikings long ships.
You mentioned a LARGE Mediterranean fleet, how many ships and types were in the Templar service in 1307, who were the captains and crew, as the Templars were not known as sailors and would hire ships including captains and crew, and please cite the source of your information.

The Venetian ships were bought for use in the Mediterranean to join in on a raid that never happened. All ships of the time were open deck sailing, oared vessels, as were the Viking ships. As was the Viking ship my friend sailed on that came to the Great Lakes a couple of years ago. At the time (late 13th century), Mediterranean vessels were being designed to be more suited for sailing than for oars.

You should attempt to read better as I only wrote they were about the same size as the Norse vessels. There were in one account 10 ships that arrived in La Rochelle in the summer of 1307 and at least 4 already there (making 14), I can't document anymore, but that doesn't mean more didn't arrive or that there were not more already there. All of the above information is documented and you can find it if you search. Have a good day!

Cheers, Loki

 

[ECS]

... There were in one account 10 ships that arrived in La Rochelle in the summer of 1307 and at least 4 already there (making 14), I can't document anymore, but that doesn't mean more didn't arrive or that there were not more already there.
All of the above information is documented and you can find it if you search...

The question concerning documentation, friend Loki, is this:
Is what you claim as "documentation" a first hand source from c1307, or is it 2nd or 3rd hand based on passed down lore that is contained in the myriad books about the Templars, or information on the internet?
There is a difference in the credibility depending on the source, such as the fringe history presented as fact by Baigent & Leigh, Picknett & Prince, and Andrew Sinclair which are more sensational legend and lore than factual.
Is this the source of your information and the reason why you never cite sources?

 

[lokiblossom]

The question concerning documentation, friend Loki, is this:
Is what you claim as "documentation" a first hand source from c1307, or is it 2nd or 3rd hand based on passed down lore that is contained in the myriad books about the Templars, or information on the internet?
There is a difference in the credibility depending on the source, such as the fringe history presented as fact by Baigent & Leigh, Picknett & Prince, and Andrew Sinclair which are more sensational legend and lore than factual.
Is this the source of your information and the reason why you never cite sources?

No, I don't cite sources because of the attitude of the person asking. If someone was sincere in their questioning and not only cherry picking information attempting to trap me I would gladly share documented sources, including those sources from well respected historians.
A case in point is, where did you get your false information that the 5 Venetian vessels were small and bought to be used for the wine trade along the Atlantic coast?

Cheers, Loki

 

[ECS]

...
You should attempt to read better ...

Post #213.
"nuff said.

 

[Raparee]

Enjoy !

View attachment 1701895

LOL

Joan Hope rears her addled head once again.

 

[lokiblossom]

Post #213.
"nuff said.

And you think that is correct? Like I asked before, where did you get the false information that the 5 vessels bought from the Venetians were for use in the Atlantic wine trade? My part of that post that you quoted is correct and is documented by two of the most well known Templar historians who wrote the vessels were bought to join with their other vessels to participate in an upcoming raid in the Mediterranean.

Cheers, Loki

 

[lokiblossom]

LOL

Joan Hope rears her addled head once again.

You might be interested to know that Joan never mentioned the Knights Templar! The idea of a Templar presence at Charing Cross was a later premise.

Cheers, Loki