The Knights Templar connection to Oak Island Challenge

[lokiblossom]

You referenced Newfoundland.
I can see your confusion in comprehension.
So I will rephrase the question:
How does your referencing what the Norse did before 1200 have ANY relevance on whether or not the Templars sailed to Newfoundland?

Per your post #238. How does your relationship with a couple of Norse ancestors have any relevance to any of this discussion?
We all have interesting ancestors, for instance, aren't we all (Europeans) related to Charlemagne?

As for your question, in your post #227 you stated that ships rarely sailed out of sight of land in the 1200's to 1300's, and I was merely shown you how wrong you were.

Cheers, Loki

 

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[ECS]

Finally you are getting the point- ancestors, coconut coir, Norse sailed here, Atlantic wine trade, Venetian galleys, and so on, DO NOT serve as evidence that the Templars sailed to Nova Scotia or constructed a vault pit to hide treasure and religious relics.
Loki, my friend, have you ever considered presenting actual facts that support your claim of Templars in Nova Scotia instead of stating that others are "wrong"?
Claiming another is wrong is not the same as proving yourself right, now is it?
PS: I am not, as so many others of European descent, related to Charlemagne.

 

[lokiblossom]

Finally you are getting the point- ancestors, coconut coir, Norse sailed here, Atlantic wine trade, Venetian galleys, and so on, DO NOT serve as evidence that the Templars sailed to Nova Scotia or constructed a vault pit to hide treasure and religious relics.
Loki, my friend, have you ever considered presenting actual facts that support your claim of Templars in Nova Scotia instead of stating that others are "wrong"?
Claiming another is wrong is not the same as proving yourself right, now is it?
PS: I am not, as so many others of European descent, related to Charlemagne.

I have never claimed the Templars built a "vault pit" (whatever that is), and yes all of us Europeans are related to Charlemagne, do the math!

No its not, but it has been fun proving you wrong in so many points along the way!

That the Templars had a large Mediterranean fleet though is important to the premise of sailing to Nova Scotia, lets check that out, ok?

Cheers, Loki

 

[Charlie P. (NY)]

Heck, Italy had a "large Mediterranean fleet" in WWII but it swiftly became a large submarine fleet full of gaping holes.

The ability is not proof of activity or even desire. Otherwise all men would be accused of being rapists. ;-)

Lets see the wrecks of Templar ships or even the artifacts of their presence anywhere in this side of the Atlantic.

 

[ECS]

...It has been fun proving you wrong in so many points along the way!...

Only in your mind, friend Loki. Cheers!

 

[lokiblossom]

Heck, Italy had a "large Mediterranean fleet" in WWII but it swiftly became a large submarine fleet full of gaping holes.

The ability is not proof of activity or even desire. Otherwise all men would be accused of being rapists. ;-)

Lets see the wrecks of Templar ships or even the artifacts of their presence anywhere in this side of the Atlantic.

One of the arguments against has always been that the Templars did not have the 18 vessels nor were the ones they did have capable of making such a voyage. The facts are they did have them and they were capable and they did go somewhere. Then we have the properly dated coconut fibre on Oak Island which shows that somebody during that same time period did make that voyage. Also, a point not to be taken lightly is that the Knights in question needed to escape France and as far as they knew at the time anywhere in Europe, meaning of course that they had the desire.


Btw, did any of the Italian vessels make the voyage to North America?

Cheers, Loki

 

[ECS]

Loki, where are the documented "facts" that the Templars actually had these 18 ships you continue to mention?
Do ship logs or manifests exist of these 18 ships and were these 18 shops named?
...or do these 18 ships exist only in repeated tales of lore?

 

[Charlie P. (NY)]

Any evidence of Templar coconut fibers in France? Seems there should be if that was their home base for centuries

And the recent test said they were plant fibers too degraded to identify - and saturated with salt water ions that screw up C-14 dating. The earlier single sample (1990's) was given to the lab. NO chain of custody or evidence of a proper effort to reduce contamination or gather multiple samples from the site. I have no confidence the fibers are of significance.

Even if they are old coconut fibers it just proves old coconut fibers ended up on Oak Island. Gee wiz!

 

[ECS]

...

The first mention of the Templars having a fleet was in the 1948 book of fictional short stories, "LES GENTILHOMMES" by French fiction author, Jean de la Varende.
In 1967, French fringe history writer, Louis Charpentier, expounded on the idea of a Templar fleet in his "LES MYSTERES TEMPLERS", using Varende as a source.
Then the Templar Grail Holy Bloodline fringe history books by Picknett & Prince, Baigent & Leigh, and Andrew Sinclair's "THE SWORD AND THE GRAIL" all refer to this Templar fleet and voyage that was never mentioned before 1948, and mostly likely, never existed.

Loki, you base most of your Templar theory in Nova Scotia on two things- this alleged fleet of 18 ships and coconut coir.
Do you have any actual legitimate historical documentation that predates the 1948 novel listed above?
Charlie P. (NY) addressed the problems with the coconut coir portion of your theory.
So far all your claims are rooted in these two speculative assumptions.
PS: Posting that others are "wrong" is not the same as providing evidence that you are "right".

 

[lokiblossom]

Any evidence of Templar coconut fibers in France? Seems there should be if that was their home base for centuries

And the recent test said they were plant fibers too degraded to identify - and saturated with salt water ions that screw up C-14 dating. The earlier single sample (1990's) was given to the lab. NO chain of custody or evidence of a proper effort to reduce contamination or gather multiple samples from the site. I have no confidence the fibers are of significance.

Even if they are old coconut fibers it just proves old coconut fibers ended up on Oak Island. Gee wiz!

There were several tests and two of four identified the material as coconut fibre, one was inconclusive and one was hemp. There is the possibility of both types of fibres being present on the island or the evidence itself being inconclusive, but nonetheless it is evidence if not proof. Certainly a further, better conducted test including DNA samples would seem to be warranted. The C-14 dating already done includes allowances for error, and most of the dating is within the same time period. I don't know if any coconut fibre was found at La Rochelle, but that is a very busy small port and I doubt if anything like that would lie around for centuries. Also, my premise has the ships arriving from Cyprus, not being unloaded and leaving La Rochelle within a few weeks.

Yes, old fibre that could only have come during the period dated from the Middle East.

There is some other evidence as well, such as the coordinates on the Shugborough Monument a copy of the Poussin, but purposely reversed (unless one thinks the artist could have accidentally made a mistake). Very interesting that Franklin and myself independently put the coded location in Nova Scotia. And my premise also uses the Teniers to locate an exact location near Annapolis Basin.

There is quite a bit of new information on much of this being produced now for tv with an old friend, Andrew Gough, as one of the narrator's

Cheers, Loki

 

[lokiblossom]

Loki, you base most of your Templar theory in Nova Scotia on two things- this alleged fleet of 18 ships and coconut coir.
Do you have any actual legitimate historical documentation that predates the 1948 novel listed above?
Charlie P. (NY) addressed the problems with the coconut coir portion of your theory.
So far all your claims are rooted in these two speculative assumptions.
PS: Posting that others are "wrong" is not the same as providing evidence that you are "right".

Yes I do, I have writings from at least four respected historians that indicate a sizable Templar fleet maintained in the Mediterranean for several centuries until 1307. These same historians mention Pope Clement V's order for the Grand Master to return from Cyprus in 1307 for a meeting, which he did with 60 Knights, their complete entourage which would include squires, three horses for each Knight , 160,000 florins of gold with much silver and other treasures. How many vessels would that take? One mention is that ten vessels sailed through Gibraltar, toward La Rochelle. It should be mentioned that at the time the Pope was headquartered in Poitiers France.

Cheers, loki

 

[Raparee]

There is some other evidence as well, such as the coordinates on the Shugborough Monument a copy of the Poussin, ...

That's not evidence. That's fantasy.

 

[lokiblossom]

That's not evidence. That's fantasy.

In your opinion! I should rephrase that though, I'm sure your view is shared by quite a few here, but?

What you don't seem to understand is that the inscription is indeed a code!

Cheers, Loki

 

[Raparee]

What you don't seem to understand is that the inscription is indeed a code!

That's right. If you decipher it you'll get Grammy Raparee's secret biscuit recipe.

Prove me wrong.

 

[ECS]

... I have writings from at least four respected historians that indicate a sizable Templar fleet maintained in the Mediterranean for several centuries until 1307...

If indeed you have writings from "four respected historians" there should be no problem posting their names...
unless, of course, the four are really not that "respected".

 

[Charlie P. (NY)]

I don't know if any coconut fibre was found at La Rochelle, but that is a very busy small port and I doubt if anything like that would lie around for centuries.

I also doubt it would lie around for centuries there or on Oak Island. I'd say it was less than a century old.

 

[Joeyboots]

Do not forget the Hospitallers then to Maltese Order developed a full blown Navy by 1530. These knights did know how to get around. I follow Oak Island and found it amazing that that Lagina Winery had that Templar Cross. These fellows know more than they let out for the sake of the show. Whether wishful thinking or based in some solid evidence. I believe there is some connection. Also notice that one fellow always wears a masonic baseball cap. Hmmm. Not a coincidence there is Scottish Rite in that organization. The York Rite, the chapel symbols and Templars in Scotland. Hope you don't mind me chiming in a bit on this read.

 

[ECS]

Do not forget the Hospitallers then to Maltese Order developed a full blown Navy by 1530.
These knights did know how to get around...

...the Med not the Atlantic.
The Hospitallers had a full blown navy and got around
The Templars had a navy and got around
Therefore, the Templars got around to Nova Scotia

An example of fallacy logic that has permeated this thread.

 

[ECS]

...
There is quite a bit of new information on much of this being produced now for tv with an old friend, Andrew Gough, as one of the narrator's

Is Andrew Gough one of the "four respected historians" you tout but never name?
Of course all the TV programs are produced for "education", not for entertainment, and are always completely based on absolute historical fact and truth and have nothing whatsoever to do with acquiring advertising money so the program can receive air time.

 

[sasquash]

As recorded in testimony of the Knight Jean de Châlon, the Templars had advance warning of the impending raid, and arranged a fleet of 18 galley ships to leave La Rochelle port, visibly leaving behind a couple ships to avoid raising suspicions of their escape. This testimony during the trials specified that “Gerard de Villiers, the Paris Preceptor, had escaped with 50 horses and 18 ships.