tayopa, legend or reality ...?

[Gossamer]

damn, this is the strangest story I've ever heard. I live in the Phx area, last summer I had 4 garage sales, this man showed up at all of them. I'm not spooked very easily, I don't take chances, I've been called super careful.
This guy creeped me out so much, that I called the police and gave them a description, his car and licence number. The lady at the police told me she would input it but said they couldn't really do anything. I said ok but something is wrong with this man, he is creepy, I could 'hear' her shrug, and I ended the call with 'until he kills me right'. and hung up.
Now over the last few years this area has had overlapping serial killers, and 2 murders have gone unsolved, then last summer a woman was dumped naked by the side of the road and another escaped from the guy.
They finally pulled it all together a couple of weeks ago with DNA. Monday i heard a description of who they were looking for, it fit my creepy guy to a tee, so I called silent witness and told them about my report last summer, the guy on the phone said "thanks, thats interesting" and kind of took notice.
Yesterday after a day of watching him, they swooped in a arrested this single father of 1. They showed a smiling man holding up a Warner Bros tag like you would get at one of the stores. Ok and here is where it gets really strange. Gossamer is the name of the big orange monster in the Bugs Bunny cartoons (with Lon Chaney). I worked in the WB art galleries for 5 yrs and had put that I had WB items in my craigslists post for garage sales.
Then the media went to his apt complex, everyone said he was nice, but one lady said.. he seemed kinda creepy to me' and they panned to his apt, it was apt 33.
I have looked over my shoulder and watched for him, since last summer, I double check that doors are locked at all times.
So.. the lesson here... don't take anything for granted, the nice guy next door could be another 'creepy guy'.
Janiece

 

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[Cubfan64]

damn, this is the strangest story I've ever heard. I live in the Phx area, last summer I had 4 garage sales, this man showed up at all of them. I'm not spooked very easily, I don't take chances, I've been called super careful.
This guy creeped me out so much, that I called the police and gave them a description, his car and licence number. The lady at the police told me she would input it but said they couldn't really do anything. I said ok but something is wrong with this man, he is creepy, I could 'hear' her shrug, and I ended the call with 'until he kills me right'. and hung up.
Now over the last few years this area has had overlapping serial killers, and 2 murders have gone unsolved, then last summer a woman was dumped naked by the side of the road and another escaped from the guy.
They finally pulled it all together a couple of weeks ago with DNA. Monday i heard a description of who they were looking for, it fit my creepy guy to a tee, so I called silent witness and told them about my report last summer, the guy on the phone said "thanks, thats interesting" and kind of took notice.
Yesterday after a day of watching him, they swooped in a arrested this single father of 1. They showed a smiling man holding up a Warner Bros tag like you would get at one of the stores. Ok and here is where it gets really strange. Gossamer is the name of the big orange monster in the Bugs Bunny cartoons (with Lon Chaney). I worked in the WB art galleries for 5 yrs and had put that I had WB items in my craigslists post for garage sales.
Then the media went to his apt complex, everyone said he was nice, but one lady said.. he seemed kinda creepy to me' and they panned to his apt, it was apt 33.
I have looked over my shoulder and watched for him, since last summer, I double check that doors are locked at all times.
So.. the lesson here... don't take anything for granted, the nice guy next door could be another 'creepy guy'.
Janiece

Creepy indeed! It pays to go with your gut impulses sometimes and it sounds like your intuition was telling you something about him a year ago. Are you sure it's the same guy?

Oh - and what is the significance of his apt. being 33?

 

[Gossamer]

Yes is was the same guy. No doubts.
33... Mason's go to the 33rd degree and the 33rd latitude is a study for me.
Janiece

 

[Cubfan64]

Yes is was the same guy. No doubts.
33... Mason's go to the 33rd degree and the 33rd latitude is a study for me.
Janiece

Ahhh - forgot about that

 

[Highmountain]

Are you trying to tell us that some of the posters in this room may possibly seem a bit creepy to you Gossamer More specifically me ? Here is a link to one of my poems due to be published soon http://www.poetry.com/voteforme/poemvote1.asp?PID=11911294 ... Furthermore, if you look on mugshots, you can find a picture of my wife and I...The pic can be seen on the 1/17/2008 date...At least it was there the last time I checked it out.
Though I must mention, some of the stuff I write may be a little provocative...

I am one of the few around here who tries to make people laugh with some of my silly posts...

If I have freaked you out, I am truly sorry...

Ed T

Ed: Gossamer didn't say that, mightn't even have hinted at it. Which doesn't say whether some of us here are creepy to her, or aren't. She just didn't say one way or the other.

Nice poem you wrote. Congrats on finding a publisher for it. And the anecdote was a funny one. Thanks for posting it.

Edit: (Do you suppose it's our anonymity, the dearth of personal information leads people to feel uncomfortable in our discussions here? I'd never considered it to be the case. But if it's so, here's me, though a decade ago, and sample poems to insure non-creepiness:

http://snipurl.com/295kx [jackpurcellbooks_us Photos from the 1998 search]
http://snipurl.com/295l7 [jackpurcellbooks_us Featured poem]
http://snipurl.com/295lc [jackpurcellbooks_us Samples from Poems of the New Old West])

Gossamer, you were going to go into some possible connections between Mormon beliefs and various tribes and other issues. I'd be interested in knowing your ideas on how to proceed with it, or whether you've abandoned that line of thinking.

Gracias,
Jack

Edit: Gossamer: I only ask because I'll confess to being a little lost here. Does the target of your inquiry involve Toyopa, Native Americans and Mormon beliefs as they relate to the Toyopa gold legend? It seems an interesting topic whether it relates specifically to Toyopa, or is more general. Thanks. Jack

More edit: Since none of us seem to be intimately familiar with Mormon beliefs maybe some links to the thinking and research of others on that and related issues will help move things along:


Answers to Apologetic Claims
about DNA and the Book of Mormon

http://www.signaturebooks.com/excerpts/Losing2.htm
http://snipurl.com/2968o [www_signaturebooks_com]
http://www.signaturebooks.com/dna.htm
http://snipurl.com/2968t [www_signaturebooks_com]

Looking Over vs. Overlooking: Native American Languages: Let's Void the Void
Brian D. Stubbs
Provo, Utah: Maxwell Institute, 1996. Pp. 1–49

http://farms.byu.edu/display.php?table=jbms&id=112
http://snipurl.com/2968w [farms_byu_edu]


NATIVE AMERICAN DEPARTMENT
Mother Goddess Viewpoints
http://www.gnosticrob.com/native1.html
http://snipurl.com/29692 [www_gnosticrob_com]



Catholic Discussions on Mormon beliefs about Native American origins
http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=214848
http://snipurl.com/29695 [forums_catholic_com]


Debunking enthusiast anti-Mormon Native American origin assertions
http://trialsofascension.net/mormon/dna.html
http://snipurl.com/29698 [trialsofascension_net]





Assessing the Logical Structure of DNA Arguments against the Book of Mormon
http://farms.byu.edu/publications/dna/ButlerBofMandDNA_Feb2006.php
http://snipurl.com/2969d [farms_byu_edu]


http://farms.byu.edu/publications/dna.php

http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/journal/109861152/abstract?CRETRY=1&SRETRY=0
http://snipurl.com/2969l [www3_interscience_wiley_com]

The Arts faculty of the University of Manitoba has historical information about the immigration of Icelanders to Manitoba
http://www.umanitoba.ca/faculties/arts/icelandic/IceCan/history.htm
http://snipurl.com/2969o [www_umanitoba_ca]



References from http://www.signaturebooks.com/excerpts/Losing2.htm


1. Blake T. Ostler, “Assessing the Logical Structure of DNA Arguments against the Book of Mormon,” Sunstone (2004): 135:70; John Butler, “Addressing Questions surrounding the Book of Mormon and DNA Research,” available at the FARMS website: http://farms.byu.edu/publications/dna/ButlerBofMandDNA_Feb2006.php, accessed Mar. 11, 2006.


2. There has been an explosion in DNA apologetics in the last couple of years. I encourage people who are unfamiliar with the limited geography theory and the latest interpretations of the Book of Mormon to read these apologetic publications. Most of these can be found at http://farms.byu.edu/publications/dna.php.


3. For example, see David McClellan, “Detecting Lehi’s Genetic Signature: Possible, Probable, or Not?” FARMS Review 15:35-90. Other apologists have completely contradicted McClellan by presenting testable hypotheses derived from the Book of Mormon. See Michael Whiting, “DNA and the Book of Mormon: A Phylogenetic Perspective,” Journal of Book of Mormon Studies (2003) 12:24-35; D. Jeffrey Meldrum and Trent D. Stephens, “Who are the Children of Lehi?” Journal of Book of Mormon Studies (2003) 12:38-51. Ostler contends, from a philosophical perspective, that critics' arguments based on DNA evidence are logically flawed ( “Assessing Logical Structure”).


4. John Butler, “Addressing Questions.”


5. See Dean H. Leavitt, Jonathon C. Marshall, and Keith A. Crandall, “The Search for the Seed of Lehi: How Defining Alternative Models Helps in the Interpretation of Genetic Data,” Dialogue: A Journal of Mormon Thought 36 (Winter 2003): 133–-50; Meldrum and Stephens, “Who Are the Children,” 38-–51; McClellan, “Detecting Lehi,” 35-90; and Whiting, “DNA and Book of Mormon,” 24-35; Ryan Parr, “Missing the Boat to Ancient America … Just Plain Missing the Boat,” FARMS Review 17/1 (2005): 83-106.


6. Michael Quinn, “The Ancient Book of Mormon as Tribal Narrative,” Sunstone (2005) 137:67.


7. Maere Reidla, et al., “Origin and Diffusion of mtDNA Haplogroup X,” American Journal of Human Genetics 73 (2003): 1178-90.


8. Cláudia L. Dornelles, et al., “Is Haplogroup X Present in Extant South American Indians?” American Journal of Physical Anthropology, forthcoming; published online at “Research Articles,” Wiley InterScience (http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/cgi-bin/abstract/109861152/ABSTRACT; accessed online Apr. 28, 2004.


9. William W. Hausworth, et al., “Inter- and Intra-population Studies of Ancient Humans,” Experientia 50 (1994): 585-91; Anne C. Stone and Mark Stoneking, “MtDNA Analysis of a Prehistoric Oneota Population: Implications for the Peopling of the New World,” American Journal of Human Genetics 62 (1998): 1153-70.


10. Reidla, “Origin and Diffusion.”


11. See Ellen Levy-Coffman, "A Mosaic of People: The Jewish Story and a Reassessment of the DNA Evidence," Journal of Genetic Genealogy, 2005, 1:12-33.

12. John Butler, “Addressing Questions.”


13. Agnar Helgason, et al., "A Population-wide Coalescent Analysis of Icelandic Matrilineal and Patrilineal Genealogies: Evidence for a Faster Evolutionary Rate of mtDNA Lineages than Y Chromosomes," American Journal of Human Genetics (2003) 72: 1370-1388.


14. "Iceland," Encyclopædia Britannica, retrieved Mar. 6, 2006, from Encyclopædia Britannica Online (http://search.eb.com/eb/article-10074)


15. The Arts faculty of the University of Manitoba has historical information about the immigration of Icelanders to Manitoba. See http://www.umanitoba.ca/faculties/arts/icelandic/IceCan/history.htm.


16. See Parr, “Missing the Boat,” 83-106; Butler, “Addressing Questions.”


17. See Losing a Lost Tribe, 33-45.


18. Mike Segaloff, "Photographic Evidence for the Authenticity of the Book of Mormon," at The Book of Mormon.com: An Exploration of the Authenticity of the LDS Scriptures (www.the-book-of-mormon.com); Jeff Lindsay, "Does DNA Evidence Refute the Book of Mormon?" online at LDS FAQ: Frequently Asked Questions about Latter-day Saint Beliefs (www.jefflindsay.com/).


19. Walter Neves and Hector Pucciarelli. "The Zhoukoudian Upper Cave Skull 101 as Seen from the Americas," Journal of Human Evolution 34 (1998): 219-22.


20. "First Americans Were Australian," BBC News: World Edition, Aug. 26, 1999.


21. Jaume García-Bour, Alejandro Pérez-Pérez, Sara Álvarez, et al., "Early Population Differentiation in Extinct Aborigines from Tierra del Fuego-Patagonia: Ancient mtDNA Sequences and Y-Chromosome STR Characterization," American Journal of Physical Anthropology 123 (2004): 361-70; Carles Lalueza, Alejandro Pérez-Pérez, E. Prats, et al., "Lack of Founding Amerindian Mitochondrial DNA Lineages in Extinct Aborigines from Tierra del Fuego-Patagonia," Human Molecular Genetics 6 (1997): 41-6.


22. David Epstein, "First Americans May Have Come from Australia," Discover 26 (2005).


23. Rex Dalton, "Skeleton Keys," Nature, Feb. 3, 2005, 454-56.


24. Butler, “Addressing Questions.”

 

[cactusjumper]

The first step for anyone looking for parallels between Native Americans and Mormons would be to study both histories. The Book Of Mormon is all you will need from that side.

Rather than deal with that subject here, it would probably be a good idea to start a separate topic......elsewhere.

As I mentioned before: "After reading the Book of Mormon, you would do well to get a copy of "Archaeology and The Book of Mormon" by, Milton R. Hunter and Quest for the Gold Plates" by, Thomas Stuart Ferguson." While you will get a good argument in favor of the BOM geographical theory, you won't find much that refutes the idea. There is a great deal of that available elsewhere, along with your own common sense.

Joe Ribaudo

 

[Gossamer]

LOL.. Ed I meant no hint that you or anyone was creepy... my goodness, just a cautionary note to everyone to be more aware. And as it was unfolding in real time.

But this brings something else up. Read the posts, if you think you're getting the wrong impression, step back go into the other room. Come back and read it again. No one here IMHO is trying to get thngs riled up. Its an exchange of info, maybe and new way to look at what you've looked at a 100 times.

The Mormon thing, as Cactus said, its right in the book of Mormon and an old journal I'm trying to read about a guy from the Smithsonian on a trek through Mexico and his experiences with Mormon settlers and guides.

Because they believed they the Indians could be descendant of the lost tribe of Israel, they went into relationships with indigenous people differently. Whereas others thought they were savages and treated them as such and worse.

They are also geneaologist and historians, so their prespective is as pure as it gets.

I'm looking at their reports and stories in the Tayopa area.

If it goes no where... so will I. On to the next item.
Janiece

 

[cactusjumper]

To find out how Joseph Smith settled on Mesoamerica as the location for the BOM, read:
By the Hand of Mormon: The American Scripture That Launched a New World Religion by Terryl L. Givens

Joe Ribaudo

 

[Highmountain]

LOL.. Ed I meant no hint that you or anyone was creepy... my goodness, just a cautionary note to everyone to be more aware. And as it was unfolding in real time.

But this brings something else up. Read the posts, if you think you're getting the wrong impression, step back go into the other room. Come back and read it again. No one here IMHO is trying to get thngs riled up. Its an exchange of info, maybe and new way to look at what you've looked at a 100 times.

The Mormon thing, as Cactus said, its right in the book of Mormon and an old journal I'm trying to read about a guy from the Smithsonian on a trek through Mexico and his experiences with Mormon settlers and guides.

Because they believed they the Indians could be descendant of the lost tribe of Israel, they went into relationships with indigenous people differently. Whereas others thought they were savages and treated them as such and worse.

They are also geneaologist and historians, so their prespective is as pure as it gets.

I'm looking at their reports and stories in the Tayopa area.

If it goes no where... so will I. On to the next item.
Janiece

Janiece: So the Tayopa connection to what you're trying to formulate or examine as a premise is the relationship between Mormons and NAs in the Tayopa area? Would it help move the topic along if the others of us interested in your idea knew more about NA/Mormon relationships at Tayopa?

I've started a topic about the ethical and moral issues involved when treasure-hunters encounter human remains that's not getting any discussion. If your interest is broader than Mormon/NA relationships at Tayopa maybe we ought to try to remove the Tayopa side of things and shoehorn the discussion into the not-drawing-comments topic about treasure hunters and dead bodies.

Jack

 

[Gossamer]

Janiece: So the Tayopa connection to what you're trying to formulate or examine as a premise is the relationship between Mormons and NAs in the Tayopa area? Would it help move the topic along if the others of us interested in your idea knew more about NA/Mormon relationships at Tayopa?
For me, I'm trying to stay at the timeline of this info I'm reading. I want the truth of the time, so I can dog the information. I think the Mormons were on target, the more I check things out, but everything that would support them, was either deemed a fraud, or ignored completely. But the timeline I'm reading at, it hasn't happened. So they say things with different inference, and if I get caught up in a later timeline, I might skew things. I hope that sounds as right as it does in my head. LOL
The Mormons, from what I can deduce, because they were respectful and dealt with NA's in different ways, but also with strength of their convictions, they were let in on things that others were killed for just stumbling across.

I've started a topic about the ethical and moral issues involved when treasure-hunters encounter human remains that's not getting any discussion. If your interest is broader than Mormon/NA relationships at Tayopa maybe we ought to try to remove the Tayopa side of things and shoehorn the discussion into the not-drawing-comments topic about treasure hunters and dead bodies.
Jack
As far as i am concerned, no mortal remains are to be touched or moved. Treasure IMHO is theirs if they find it, as long as no laws, moral or otherwise are broken.
But I'm just learning about it, so I'm sure at some point I will have questions. Recently I attended a party and noticed some beautiful indians pots and other things, I asked about them, they had been found on private land, and with the permission of the owners. The man was sweet and offered me one of them, but not knowing what/where they were found, I declined.
Janiece

 

[Old Dog]

Smart move on your part lady,

Taking something like that makes you responsible for someone else's short comings.

You are a very wise individual.

Thom

 

[Highmountain]

Janiece: So the Tayopa connection to what you're trying to formulate or examine as a premise is the relationship between Mormons and NAs in the Tayopa area? Would it help move the topic along if the others of us interested in your idea knew more about NA/Mormon relationships at Tayopa?
For me, I'm trying to stay at the timeline of this info I'm reading. I want the truth of the time, so I can dog the information. I think the Mormons were on target, the more I check things out, but everything that would support them, was either deemed a fraud, or ignored completely. But the timeline I'm reading at, it hasn't happened. So they say things with different inference, and if I get caught up in a later timeline, I might skew things. I hope that sounds as right as it does in my head. LOL
The Mormons, from what I can deduce, because they were respectful and dealt with NA's in different ways, but also with strength of their convictions, they were let in on things that others were killed for just stumbling across.

I've started a topic about the ethical and moral issues involved when treasure-hunters encounter human remains that's not getting any discussion. If your interest is broader than Mormon/NA relationships at Tayopa maybe we ought to try to remove the Tayopa side of things and shoehorn the discussion into the not-drawing-comments topic about treasure hunters and dead bodies.
Jack
As far as i am concerned, no mortal remains are to be touched or moved. Treasure IMHO is theirs if they find it, as long as no laws, moral or otherwise are broken.
But I'm just learning about it, so I'm sure at some point I will have questions. Recently I attended a party and noticed some beautiful indians pots and other things, I asked about them, they had been found on private land, and with the permission of the owners. The man was sweet and offered me one of them, but not knowing what/where they were found, I declined.
Janiece

Thanks for the reply. Gives me a lot better understanding where you're coming from and where you hope to go [and why you're going at it from the direction you are].

There's a nice big olla not too far from a remote ruin complex in the southeastern Utah desert country a lot of people have found and left sitting as it was, except for dropping a business card in, or a slip of paper with their names on it. Lots of paper in that olla. It's a refreshing thing to know a lot of people can leave something be and don't have to take it home with them or sell it to a collector.

On the other hand, ancients pots are things of beauty. I don't have a problem with people who want to own one to savor and don't rape ruin sites getting them. I don't do it myself, and while I own some other types of artifacts, I own no pots [though I could own a lot of them if I wished]. If that sounds contradictory maybe it is. Most of the way I view this reality involves juggling and shuffling and cutting the cards afterward.

There's probably not a lot of difference on some level in a pot and the 12,000 year old axe head sitting on my mantle or the arrowhead I have reason to believe helped kill a white man I wear hanging on a thong around my neck.

Gracias,
Jack

 

[Springfield]

.... There's probably not a lot of difference on some level in a pot and the 12,000 year old axe head sitting on my mantle or the arrowhead I have reason to believe helped kill a white man I wear hanging on a thong around my neck.

Gracias,
Jack

It's mostly a matter of personal perception. Around here, classic painted Mimbres bowls are highly collectable, and carry a hefty price for originals. Trouble is, they are recovered from burials, where they were placed upside down over the face of the deceased, the 'kill hole' positioned at the head chakra to allow the spirit to escape with the last earthly vision being the painted scene on the inside of the bowl - significent in some way to the deceased. Most people think it's just a groovy Indian design, with the ricos wanting the 'real thing' in their bookcase. This is the same as someone digging up your grandma and stripping her wedding ring off her dead finger (other than the fact that the bowls belonged to some ignorant pagan savage of course). Replica bowls, tee-shirts, etc. carrying the designs are fine, IMO, but my personal perception is that these original artifacts and any other burial offerings should be left in place. Of course, the 'sanctioned' looters - museums, colleges, foundations, etc., have a free pass here, but as far as I'm concerned, the same rule of thumb should apply. By the way, the removal of petroglyphs to be placed in your beautifully landscaped backyard is a low-down dastardly act too, IMHO.

However, regarding any other artifacts left behind on life's journey and subsequently located by a fortunate searcher (arrowheads, stone tools, beads, grass sandals, Anasazi cookware, old firearms, gold bars, jar of coins, etc.) - "finders keepers".

 

[Gossamer]

I have an ancient bowl that my uncle gave me, it had been put back together and put in a Tiffany's box and left at my parents for the last 25 yrs. My uncle gave it to me when I was only 9.
I had never taken 'possesion' of it and when I came to help my Mom, I took it out. I refused to claim it and told a friend about it. A couple of weeks later someone wanted to see it, so I brought it out and they photographed it... in every pic there were those orb's that people sometimes see... if the pot wasn't in the pic no orbs, pot in... orbs.
Anyway, a few days later I was dusting around it, and I swear it jumped off the shelf and
broke, so I went and got my digital pic... no orbs. I picked the pieces up gave them a RIP prayer.. put them back in the tiffany box. Then my aunt visited and said she would put it back together. Haven't seen it since.
I love the pottery and the person that had the ones I saw I'm sure were taken with the best of intentions. But I hadn't found them, so after my jumping bowl, I'm not keeping any of them. If I'm supposed to have one, I'll come across it myself.
Janiece

 

[Gossamer]

By the way, the removal of petroglyphs to be placed in your beautifully landscaped backyard is a low-down dastardly act too, IMHO.

I so agree... thats a 'hangin' offence in my book.
Janiece

 

[Highmountain]

By the way, the removal of petroglyphs to be placed in your beautifully landscaped backyard is a low-down dastardly act too, IMHO.

I so agree... thats a 'hangin' offence in my book.
Janiece

Weird aside on that. They want them REAL. I studied petroglyphs for years and sometime back there because so many were being landscape and collector looted that what they wanted were petroglyphs ..... I gathered rocks of an attractive sort and made several hundred authentic, large petroglyphs of a wide variety of types. Maybe 10 percent of them sold. Probably still have some around here somewhere. But it's not the novelty, not the idea, not the identical reproduction they want. They want 'looted and ancient'.

Human beings.

Jack

 

[Oroblanco]

HOLA amigos,

Blindbowman you have been awfully quiet for days now amigo - I hope everything is okay?


To tie this back in with the subject, I must ask our mutual friend Real de Tayopa - did you happen across any human remains in your search? If you had, (even if speaking theoretically, as I do not recall your mention of human remains) what should you do under Mexican law? Do you notify the authorities, or simply do not disturb the remains or do they allow excavating of grave sites and have no restrictions? (In other words what is the legal situation in this regard in Mexico?) Thank you in advance,
Oroblanco

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

ORO, frankly I have no idea legally. In the flat lands they are mostly family enforced rules, in the mountains no one cares. In the case of the giants, no-one cares.

The country is littered with old abandoned grave sites, so you play it by ear. If you believe that there is something there that can change your families life for the better, the decision is yours. To me, most graves are basically for hygienic purposes modified for personal reasons.

Bones are NOT the person, they are only used to interact with the world, just as teeth, hair from a hair cut, or that limb which was amputated, etc. etc.. To be 100% correct, all such materiel should be saved to be buried in one spot later.

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[Gossamer]

ORO, frankly I have no idea legally. In the flat lands they are mostly family enforced rules, in the mountains no one cares. In the case of the giants, no-one cares. Don Jose de La Mancha

What giants?
Janiece

 

[the blindbowman]

i didnt find a crystall skull , i dont know what your talking about ...?


your right i didnt find anything ... lol