tayopa, legend or reality ...?

[Cynangyl]

A quick poll - how many here have owned a horse or mule at some time? (Ponies and burros count!) Thank you in advance,
Oroblanco

Good morning everyone! We had 31 horses when I was growing up...horses were a huge part of my life.

if we stay in these guide lines ,you can rule out the Anasazi
the Oasisamerica Hohokam came after this site ,both Snaketown and Casa Grande show it in there design ..

yet we know it fits

Based on maize remnants found in Bat Cave, Arizona, it appears that agriculture practices date back to at least 3500 B.C. Given that the oldest traces of maize in North America date back to the year 5000 B.C., it would seem that the hypothesis of importation of agriculture from the south is correct. It is less certain who brought the agricultural technology and what role they played in the development of the high cultures of Oasisamerica.

A pebble of turquoise, one of the principal trade goods of the Oasisamericans

i know ray dillman's site dirrectly relates to this site with pebble of turquoise....

if we use that as our guide line this site has to be 3500BC -5000 bc ,

i look at Nakbe to jdge this , the site #4 has people that live in caves ,so it would be older then Nakbe

this tells me this site was so isolated it dosent fit the known groups as we would think it should ...

so most likely IMHO we are looking at a site from before Olmec to around the Archaic or Paleo-Indian...

this makes me question the Coxcatlan Phase (7000-5400 BP), so parts of this site look older then Coxcatlan Phase (7000-5400 BP yet some looks newer , are we seeing a site that grew or our we seeing a site with many layers of culture on top of each other over a long span of time ...?

Some very fascinating information you have posted here BB. The prior two posts were great as well. I am learning a lot here so thanks for sharing this. Given the information you have posted it seems as if there would have been many layers of culture over a period of time in my opinion. I am very interested to hear what others would think as well. Have a great day everyone!

 

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[Old Dog]

A quick poll - how many here have owned a horse or mule at some time? (Ponies and burros count!) Thank you in advance,
Oroblanco

Oro,
We have 23 on the property right now,
with no new colts coming or expected (for once)

A side note to self...
It doesn't take as long for this thread to load if BB is on ignore.

LOL
Thom

 

[Gossamer]

::::clink::::: another quarter in the machine, and he's wound up again. You go BB.
Janiece

PS I have never owned a horse/burro/pony yet... that said, does it count that I stole my cousins horse and took off across the desert? (actually that wasn't the plan, but the horse had other ideas, then came the damn cactus )
And if you've seen the pic the "dutchman" holding me, the only reason I allowed that was so I could sit on his burro.

 

[Cynangyl]

oh my! I can only imagine the story of the cactus! lol I would say you stealing the horse and letting the dutchman hold you so you would get to sit on his burro would count for...at the very least....a love for horses and burros even if you have never had one of your own! Sure glad you survived the cactus!

 

[Oroblanco]

HOLA amigos,

This got to be a very LONG post, so I must beg your indulgence again…

Blindbowman wrote:

the site would most ike fit one of these groups and it could also fall between these groups . but as i see it we need to work on defineing what group or groups it fits most . to me the site looks to have been there from before 5000bc maybe as old as 10,000,bc

i dont think we can judge this site by the other sites in the area as for say snaketown and wupatki..or even casa ....they are all around it but the design of there ball courts are not as old as this site .. this site has flat vertical walls and the court is much bigger then snaketown and not oval shaped like Hohokam but yet dose have open ends ..

its like all of those sites were fassioned from this site .......and that matches the chicomoztoc legend that the other sites came from chicomoztoc .it would make logical sence they would start their own games or maybe retrun each year for the play offs ...

Blindbowman you have covered a LOT of ground in your posts, and thank you for posting all that information; there is a good deal available online and in books for cross-reference. I respectfully disagree that we can not compare the site to other known sites in the general region (as well as considerably far away) for even in the differences we can learn a good deal. Besides, the fact that these people had a ball court, even if quite different from neighboring examples, shows that they had an interest in some kind of ball game that resembles in at least some respects the ball games of other cultures. Why do you say it is “…like all of those sites were fassioned from this site…” – without any carbon-dating tests or other accurate type of dating tests done, I would say that we can not assign a date period to this with any degree of certainty. Considering that most historians place the origin of the ball game in Mesoamerica or even in South America (some place where RUBBER TREES or another rubber-producing plant is native) I see no logic in assuming that the ball game would have evolved this far to the north (Arizona Superstition Mountains) where there are no RUBBER TREES or other latex-producing plants. The archaeologists have found artifacts and even rubber balls in those regions (as shown in the map posted above) that have been accurately dated to at least 1400 BC. Then again think about what you are proposing – for a people living in the rugged and inhospitable Superstition Mountains of Arizona, in the time period of 10,000 BC, the climate was likely considerably COLDER than today (the Ice Age) so the chances of a latex-producing plant like rubber trees being in the locality are pretty darned low! At least I am not aware of any latex-producing plant native to the Superstitions, and welcome any corrections from anyone with greater knowledge of the local flora species.

Blindbowman also wrote:

that matches the chicomoztoc legend that the other sites came from chicomoztoc .it would make logical sence they would start their own games or maybe retrun each year for the play offs ...

The Chicomoztoc legend holds that ALL Amerindians came from this mythical place, which is not in agreement with the myths of numerous other Amerindian tribes. The postulation that they might have returned for “playoffs” something like an ancient World Series or “world championship” or even some kind of parallel with the Olympic games of the Greeks is quite an idea, but remember that the game held a different meaning to Amerindians than say, Americans view Basketball. There were political and even religious meanings involved, and these meanings were different even among different tribes that played the ball game. It is an interesting idea however and could be quite a clue to track down.


Blindbowman also wrote:

if we stay in these guide lines ,you can rule out the Anasazi
the Oasisamerica Hohokam came after this site ,both Snaketown and Casa Grande show it in there design ..

yet we know it fits

Based on maize remnants found in Bat Cave, Arizona, it appears that agriculture practices date back to at least 3500 B.C. Given that the oldest traces of maize in North America date back to the year 5000 B.C., it would seem that the hypothesis of importation of agriculture from the south is correct. It is less certain who brought the agricultural technology and what role they played in the development of the high cultures of Oasisamerica.

A pebble of turquoise, one of the principal trade goods of the Oasisamericans

i know ray dillman's site dirrectly relates to this site with pebble of turquoise....

if we use that as our guide line this site has to be 3500BC -5000 bc ,

i look at Nakbe to jdge this , the site #4 has people that live in caves ,so it would be older then Nakbe

this tells me this site was so isolated it dosent fit the known groups as we would think it should ...

so most likely IMHO we are looking at a site from before Olmec to around the Archaic or Paleo-Indian...

this makes me question the Coxcatlan Phase (7000-5400 BP), so parts of this site look older then Coxcatlan Phase (7000-5400 BP yet some looks newer , are we seeing a site that grew or our we seeing a site with many layers of culture on top of each other over a long span of time ...?

Well I respectfully disagree that we must stay within these guidelines but for the sake of speculation I will do so for the moment. I don’t see that we can effectively rule OUT the Hohokam or Anasazi, especially when we know that the ball game had variations even within one tribe or culture; for instance among the Mayans, the size and architectural design of each city’s ball court are NOT identical but different, occasionally quite different.

The pebble of turquoise, are you referring to the turquoise found by the Dillmans in Utah, or one found in the Superstitions? Without anything to “pin it down” with greater precision, finding a single pebble of turquoise in the desert is not a “strong” clue IMHO – for there are several possibilities about how it got there and whom dropped it, if it was lost by a human being; couldn’t it have traveled there naturally? Unless it is set in jewelry of some kind or directly adjacent to some kind of thing it was a part of, or unless it shows some kind of human working (which would be unusual) I would hesitate to assign too much importance to a single nugget of turquoise. Plus we know that many tribes had some veneration for the blue stones, including Apaches and we know that they frequented the Superstitions in the late 1800’s. For that matter, if the turquoise was found lying on the top of the ground – it is possible that a modern day person found it elsewhere and lost it where you found it. Don’t forget how many thousands upon thousands of people visit the Superstitions each and every year!

Blindbowman I hope that my disagreement with the conclusions and speculations are not cause for offense, I am NOT saying that what you have proposed is IMPOSSIBLE, only that I don’t think the case is closed or sealed. Even our basic assumption is not proven beyond reasonable doubt – for can we be absolutely certain that what you found is in fact a ball court? You even mentioned that you did not dig down to find out if it has a stone floor (of course it is quite possible that a ball court could have a clay floor) and you stated that you didn’t notice a ball ring, and again not all ball courts had rings, some had other types of goals or even none at all. You posted earlier that the ball court had a garden planted on it - so is it not possible that the site was never a ball court but some kind of irrigated or terraced agricultural plot? It is an interesting, even intriguing idea that an ancient ball court might exist in the Superstitions, and I have to admit my surprise that you would say that you would choose NOT to return to the site to investigate it further. I know that if I had found such a site, I would be making the trip as often as I could afford to.

Thank you Cynangel, Thom and Gossamer, (and yes borrowing and renting one DOES COUNT – as they say, “possession is nine-tenths of the law”! I can empathize with the cactus experience – OUCH!) I think the most we ever owned at one time was fourteen, counting three mules, and I can’t imagine how it is to have 20 or 30! After two or three, it almost seems as if the ‘hosses’ have us, rather than the other way round! I do find this parallel interesting, and may have to start a list or study (not a serious “scientifical” type, not educated enuff fer dat! Hee hee) just to satisfy my own curiosity. Cynangel I didn’t think to ask the question in the way you phrased it, as in a “love for horses” – though in some cases a person might own and use horses and-or mules, yet have a very different emotion involved!

My apologies to our readers for such a long-winded post, and of course good luck and good hunting, I hope you find the treasures that you seek. (Got to get back to work – just had a little time and decided to see the replies.)
Your friend,
Roy ~ Oroblanco

 

[Gossamer]

Cyn, I adore animals. When I was a child, my Grandfather had a farm.. .it was heaven for my sis and I.
He once set me on top of a horse that he said was 17-18 hands tall, he was a big man and I remember looking down at him and he looked back at me... "don't you do it babygirl" he read my mind, and gave me that serious Grandpa look, I was gonna run. I was 5. So my horse thieving started very early. I have more memories from him and whatever he brought home to us than any other memory.
And yes, I survived the cactus, actually I got up running for the horse, but my sis caught me and dragged me home, while the cousins went for the horse. I wasn't in too much trouble tho... pulling prickley cactus was punishment enough. I spent part of my summers in Superior AZ running thru the deserts.
One time we were farther than we should have been, my sis and her b-friend and her little sis my b-friend... 4 little girls out in the desert, when we saw a light flashing in the desert, we stood there watching it, then heard the thunder of horses coming to us... we all scattered, sister with sister, from a top of a cave, we watched a man in a plaid shirt and jeans running after our friends with a sawed off shotgun. NO ONE believed us, but that was a long time ago.
Janiece

 

[Cynangyl]

Janiece, it does sound like we had a lot in common. My grandfather was the one that had all of the horses on his farm. Grandpa had his hands cut off in a veneer clipper when I was just 9 years old so at that point us girls went to farming and the horses were our reward of sorts. lol We trained and showed horses in addition to doing farm work and I would not trade all of that for anything. We were often off wandering far from where we should have been but luckily never found anyone chasing us with a shotgun (YIKES) although I can remember walking home a time or two when I paid too little attention and my horse went home without me. lol

Oro, you definitely made some good points with your post. I am very glad you found time to get away from work to check the thread. The idea of ancient ballgames is very intriguing and I am enjoying all the posts exploring the different possibilities of the origins of these games.
And yes, there are some who have horses who do not necesarily love them! lol I once was involved with a horseshoer that detested them. Strange man! lol They definitely can end up owning you too when there are that many of them. I can remember our horses getting sick and having to give them each combiotic shots 3Xday.....as you can imagine me being a young teen giving horses shots....that many horses....I was sure glad when they were done with their shots because I did not do much but give shots all day!

 

[Old Dog]

Here is a photo of the upper pasture with some of our mares.
It was taken a couple months ago they are all facing into an incoming storm.
they seem to face the storm as it comes in and then turn their butts to it when it hits.
Kind of fun to study them and their habits, one of the most wonderful animals God made.

....

 

[Cynangyl]

Definitely fun to study them....we always knew when an electrical storm was coming by watching ours. Today the trainer where my mom has her horses boarded called to ask if I had come to take her two horses because they were missing when they came home. Called around and found out mom had taken them and had left a phone message....found it kind of funny since we were discussing horses I would get a call from the trainer. lol

 

[Old Dog]

I do like the horses and dogs and children more than anything else I think,
They either love you or hate you and there is no BS about a middle of the road stance.

And never let anyone kid you...
The stallion doesn't rule the herd.

If there is a horse you don't want to cross it is a lead mare
she won't even take any poop from a stallion if he gets on the wrong side of her.

Thom

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Old Dog You posted -->

one of the most wonderful animals God made
~~~~~~~~~~

Whatcha got against human females? they can scratch yer back, fetch coffee, and cook wonderful dinners. snicker

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[Gossamer]

Cyn, sorry about your Grandpa. Sounds like he didn't let it slow him down.

Wow, Old Dog... beautiful land, get some up close of the horses that would be fun.

Oro, BB... are you talking about solstice circles? One of which is found in the Sups. this is a good (?) paper on this: http://www.celticnz.co.nz/Circlestone/Circlestone1.htm
This is a fascinating field of study. This one is well documented, but I've wondered about other sites. The Superstion proper would have been a perfect setting for the viewing of the solstice.
The working theory is that the Hohokam culture showed up 1150 ad and left at around 1450 ad. (Depending on your calendar) 1050-1150 are dates shown for a super nova event that lit the sky up for a long time. Did the Hohokam migration or civilisation revere this sighting and when it did not happen or their "Messiah" didn't appear. We have the nova event documented in petroglyphs at sights all around the Phoenix area.
Could the nova event been the catalyst?
We know that religious events were revitalising religion in Europe, the Templars gain great importance.
There is evidence that habitation occurred as long ago as 10,000, they have Mammoth kill sites, with carbon dating.
Another interesting take, the Sups are along the 33rd degree and for the Secret Societies this number was very important.
If you find copper, is gold nearby?
Janiece

 

[Oroblanco]

HOLA amigos,

I have been re-thinking my previous set of questions and the latest developments in the discussion. I beg your indulgence once again for another long-winded post; the first and largest part is addressed to my amigo Blindbowman, followed by a reply to Cynangel, Thom, Gossamer etc. So please bear with me.

Blindbowman I don't imagine that you are thinking of posting any photos of the "ball court" here for everyone to see, correct? It was a surprising twist to toss in there amigo, I got to hand it to you for that; and even more so I must hand it to you that your method of reaching conclusions by leaps of logic never fails to amaze me and I find myself posting time and again - "I respectfully disagree" and trying to point out that your stream of logic is making assumptions on points that are not proven. I am sure that you find this habit of mine to be irritating, or at least frustrating, and it is equally frustrating from my end too, to be going from one possibility on to a whole string of them to arrive at absolute "facts". For instance in this latest bombshell you let slip here - the ball court. You have never mentioned this "little" feature before, which is just a wee bit astonishing in itself, but this is not too shocking in itself; trying to put myself in your shoes I would have thought that finding a ball court would have been quite a discovery in itself, worthy of contacting at least one trusted archaeologist and dragging them to see it (if necessary) and I would be "crowing" about the find right off the bat. After all a ball court is not exactly the kind of "treasure" that a treasure hunter is looking for, but does have a LOT of value to historians and archaeologists. Such a site deserves to be protected from destruction, and would be a sure-fire draw to attract more tourists to see it, photograph it and study it. I would imagine that the archies would want to do an official 'dig' on it too.

Then there is the problem of just what is it? You have already concluded that it IS a ball court, even though you, yourself stated that you never dug down to see if it had any kind of floor surface, there were no ball rings or goals visible, and you made no mention of any kind of grandstands for the spectators who would have been watching the games. We need only look at any other ball court to see that they were all built with some kind of grandstands for the spectators, for the games were very much a public spectacle, yet this one you found either has no place for spectators or....? How do we KNOW it is a ball court, and not something else, such as perhaps some kind of terraced agricultural plot? This rather LARGE question (to me) does not seem to be of any hindrance to you amigo, you appear to be content to just conclude that it IS absolutely a ball court without any need to question that fact or study the site, just to be sure.

From there you seem to have zero problem in dismissing any and all possible OTHER cultures that might well have such a ball court, such as the Hohokam (which I didn't even know had ball courts, until now) on the basis that the ball court you have found is different from nearby examples. The fact that ball courts are varied among the different tribes and even among different cities within one culture is no hindrance to your logic, this one you have found and positively identified can NOT be related to any of those, it has to be Chicomoztoc. The fact that we don't even know if the early Aztecs even played any kind of ball game is no stumbling block, for that matter is any ball game or court even mentioned in the Aztec codices which tell of Chicomoztoc and Aztlan? I don't know, but this apparently large question again is no problem for you amigo.

Continuing on with your progression - even though most historians put the origin of the ball game FAR to the south, in regions where rubber plants are native, and that they have several sites which have been accurately dated to at least 1400 BC, pretty strong evidence that the game originated THERE - you have zero problem with taking the position that this is all wrong, the game must be invented and originate in the Superstition mountains of Arizona, and all those other ball courts are but poor imitations of the one you have so located. To put a date on it you have reached well back past what the historians say, not 1400 BC but 5000 to 10,000 BC, which particular date, (10000 BC) is actually during the last Ice Age.

I have noticed our apparently very different methods of research, and our very different methods of saying things amigo, which differences have led to many misunderstandings between us (and others) and I hope that none of our disagreements will have any affect on our friendship. Blindbowman I consider you to be a friend, as well as a number of other good folks here on T-net whom I only know through the internet and some rare phone calls, but in a way this kind of 'friendship' is perhaps more 'intimate' (not as in romantic-huggy-kissy, REAL DE TAYOPA! Sheesh you really are a romantic, amigo! ) in that we often open our hearts through the written word considerably more so than we would in ordinary, face to face conversation or even phone calls. Our written "conversation" allows us to read and consider carefully what each of us has said, and to take the time to try to put our own views into the right words. So rather than run any further risk of a disagreement over what is in fact largely speculation, which could lead to an end of the friendship - I am happy to drop the questioning amigo. You know I do try to put myself in 'the other fellows shoes' and IMHO the sites and discoveries you have made are for you exactly what you say they are. I don't know why I didn't see it earlier, but you have said repeatedly that your reality is not just the 3D version most mortals experience but includes the Spirit World, and since I have no such ability to enter the Spirit World how can I question what you experience there? When you simply touch an object, you experience the whole of the history of the object - while to someone like me, it is possible to imagine the history but that is the limit of the experience. For you, those sites you found, are in fact an Aztec Ball Court, Aztlan and Chicomoztoc, the tomb of Montezuma and treasure of the Templars, the lost mines of the Peraltas and Gonzales, even the infamous lost gold mine of Jacob Waltz the original Dutchman, all rolled into one. I only hope that you will publish your finds as it should become a best-seller overnight. I hope to be one of the first to buy a copy and look forward to reading it.

Cynangel wrote:

Oro, you definitely made some good points with your post. I am very glad you found time to get away from work to check the thread. The idea of ancient ballgames is very intriguing and I am enjoying all the posts exploring the different possibilities of the origins of these games.
And yes, there are some who have horses who do not necesarily love them! lol I once was involved with a horseshoer that detested them. Strange man! lol They definitely can end up owning you too when there are that many of them. I can remember our horses getting sick and having to give them each combiotic shots 3Xday.....as you can imagine me being a young teen giving horses shots....that many horses....I was sure glad when they were done with their shots because I did not do much but give shots all day!

(BLUSH) Thank you for the kind words amigo - though if it sounded good then I probably just got lucky! (You know the old saying - "Even a blind hog finds an acorn once in a while" ! heh heh) It was no 'effort' to tear myself away from work, a lazy guy like me can find all sorts of excuses that will do! I only thought of the folks who have and use horses that DON'T like them after remembering what the son of a rancher friend once told me - "Why in the world would anyone get on a horse if he didn't HAVE to?" There are quite a few ranchers who now use 4-wheelers, which has resulted in many more serious injuries and a few deaths than would be likely had they used horses - after all, a 4-wheeler has no eyes or brain and will blindly carry you right over a cliff, and is much less able to get out of the way of a bull on the fight or angry mother-cow trying to protect her baby calf. That said, I have had a few horses that I would happily have sent to the Alpo plant, (I didn't, don't have the heart for that) so I can easily see how someone could grow to hate the critters if they had to deal with a real knothead for a horse. As for mules - well they were bought as an experiment, and after my molly mule killed two of my own dogs I decided I would stick with horses. The equation Dogs + mules = Trouble is yet another that I had to learn the hard way. Gosh your mention of the combiotic shots reminds me - we once had an epidemic of pinkeye break out and had to blow some kind of medicated powder into all of the horses and mules eyes, and they did NOT like that! What a chore that was, hope I never have to do that again!

Thom that is pretty country you got there amigo, I am jealous! Old Dog wrote:

I do like the horses and dogs and children more than anything else I think,
They either love you or hate you and there is no BS about a middle of the road stance.

And never let anyone kid you...
The stallion doesn't rule the herd.

They are definitely very emotional creatures, and have very pure emotions - no half-measures. They never seem to forget a wrong or a favor either. You are absolutely correct about the lead mare too! When you see the stallion off away from the herd, seeming to be "on the alert" - one reason is that the lead mare didn't allow him to be any closer! (heh heh)

Gossamer wrote:

Could the nova event been the catalyst?

I am speculating here but it is conceivable that when the nova appeared in the sky it could have been interpreted as an important sign of an upcoming event, and when that event failed to occur (or crops failed due to drought for a possible answer) wholesale abandonment was in order.

Gossamer also wrote:

If you find copper, is gold nearby?

While I am no geologist, it is safe to say that if you find copper, it is almost a certainty that gold is either present in with the copper as a natural alloy, and/or VERY near by, perhaps in the same ore vein. That doesn't mean there will be a LOT of gold however, one look at the copper deposits of the Great Lakes region will demonstrate that the gold can be quite minimal in relation to the copper.

I had not considered the idea of Medicine wheels (solstice-circles) in this equation to be honest, and don't know of any in the Superstitions. I was never looking for any so could have walked right past one for that matter - I am sure that others here with MUCH more intimate knowledge of the Superstitions could say with authority however.

That theory of the latitude 33 is one I have only read about once, can't make an informed opinion as to whether this would be a factor or feature concerning Blindbowman's sites. What do you make of the connection Janiece? Thank you in advance,

Good luck and good hunting everyone, I hope you all find the treasures that you seek.
your friend,
Roy ~ Oroblanco

 

[Gossamer]

The Hohokam, renown for their platform mounds, generally constructed ball courts in association with the platform mounds. To date, no ballcourts have been discovered in Salado territory, however. There is some disagreement as to whether the Hohokam introduced platform mounds to the Salado or vice versa.
http://www.cabrillo.edu/~crsmith/salado.html

The role of Aztlán is slightly less important to Aztec legendary histories than the migration to Tenochtitlán itself. According to the legend, the southward migration began on May 24, 1064, the first Aztec solar year beginning on May 24, after the Crab Nebula events from May to July of 1054. CE. Each of the seven groups is credited with founding a different major city-state in Central Mexico. The city-states reputed to have an Aztec foundation were:


1218 - The Fifth Crusade leaves Acre for Egypt.

Sunset Crater Volcano (present-day

Known events... lots of documentation
Janiece

 

[Gossamer]

Sorry got ahead of myself.. here is the rest, the supernova did indeed 'change' civilisation, now whether it was a cosmic change or just a awakening, I don't know.

The city-states reputed to have an Aztec foundation were:
Tepaneca (now Azcapotzalco, a delegación of the Mexican Federal District), and
Matlatzinca (whose language was Otomian and not of the Uto-Aztecan family).
These city-states formed during the Late Postclassic period of Mesoamerica (1300-1521 CE).

According to Aztec legends the Mexica were the last tribe to emigrate. When they arrived at their ancestral homeland, the present-day Valley of Mexico, all available land had been taken, and they were forced to squat on the edge of Lake Texcoco.

I don't know about the 33rd degree, I just find it interesting that major cities along that latitude, I'm pretty sure there is some legend or something ancient about it, but I will keep looking.

BB... The ballcourts are documented, and so are the solstice circles. I din't even have to resort to my skill of remote viewing to find them.
Janiece

 

[Oroblanco]

HOLA mi amigo Gossamer (and everyone),

Gossamer wrote:

I don't know about the 33rd degree, I just find it interesting that major cities along that latitude, I'm pretty sure there is some legend or something ancient about it, but I will keep looking.

The easy way out is to conclude that the climate is relatively mild at that latitude, encouraging people to locate there so as to take advantage of it. There is an ancient idea about this too, since most seagoing navigation was latitude only, to locate trading posts on a known latitude so that ships could easily find them. Can't prove that concept yet however, as far as I know.
Oroblanco

 

[Gossamer]

I know about the line of 'civilisation' the 33rd lat. But then that number shows up in the Secret Soc. so it makes you think.
If you follow the 33rd after CA, it runs thru Phoenix... Roswell... Clovis, Dallas Ft Worth and it keeps going... one interesting aside... lots of UFO activity there too.
Another interesting aside... all along the 33rd or close to it, in AZ is major copper deposits, at least to the east. oh and this is all IMHO
The supernova event in 1064 lit the skies for 23 days it was 4 times brighter than Venus and with a society that watched the sky and the solstice was the time to plant, can you imagine the fear and wonder. it was a mag. 6, and made quite the impression all over the world. There was another famous star event? When the Christ was born.
Janiece

 

[Stryker_FO]

on the north west trails leading into the supers... where the LaBarge Canyon Trail intersects with the trail out of goldfield. There is a Ruin Nearby and close enough to that ruin there is a pile of stacked copper ore .. last time I was there it was partially hidden and not as stacked as it once was but its there and was purposely stacked and not natural..


I never did find where the ore might have came from but I would venture to say it was a trail marker of old and was there to say something possbily about an old mine.




and that is right about near the 33rd Lat


You have (Copper Producing Towns) Miami, Globe, Morenci and the towns in between that are ghost towns now....... Copperhill, Stanton (Gila County version) Richmond Basin, Seneca, and a few more...... so your theory could hold true..... As I know some gold producing areas around there that are in the same vicinity of that Lat...

 

[the blindbowman]

so what i found must not be a ball court , thats was good to find out now before i wasted money going back to look ,..i glad your so smart . now i can get back to my farm chores......you herd it from her she says i found nothing ........latter

 

[Cynangyl]

so what i found must not be a ball court , thats was good to find out now before i wasted money going back to look ,..i glad your so smart . now i can get back to my farm chores......you herd it from her she says i found nothing ........latter

Who said you found nothing?