tayopa, legend or reality ...?

[the blindbowman]

chicomoztoc has a ball court .....dose that answer all your questions ,,,,...

 

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[Oroblanco]

Blindbowman wrote:

chicomoztoc has a ball court .....dose that answer all your questions ,,,,...

A ball court! Holy smoke! So the game continues! This ups the ante quite a bit amigo - and hints at possibilities I don't think I will post publicly. So - NO this doesn't answer my questions - it raises many MANY more. Dang it - here I had about given up on this conversation as possibly someone's idea of revenge, and this detail gets brought up changing the whole thing.

With a 'structure' the size of a ball court, this has to be quite large, certainly not something so small you could easily miss it right? Is the ball ring still intact and in place? Is it built of stone? Are there carvings on it? Gee Blindbowman you sure know how to get a guy's attention!
Oroblanco

 

[the blindbowman]

Blindbowman wrote:

chicomoztoc has a ball court .....dose that answer all your questions ,,,,...

A ball court! Holy smoke! So the game continues! This ups the ante quite a bit amigo - and hints at possibilities I don't think I will post publicly. So - NO this doesn't answer my questions - it raises many MANY more. Dang it - here I had about given up on this conversation as possibly someone's idea of revenge, and this detail gets brought up changing the whole thing.

With a 'structure' the size of a ball court, this has to be quite large, certainly not something so small you could easily miss it right? Is the ball ring still intact and in place? Is it built of stone? Are there carvings on it? Gee Blindbowman you sure know how to get a guy's attention!
Oroblanco

you dont know the half of it . i was on my hands and knees looking for the vault near the garden and as went to stand up a saw a spirit of a AZtec run by with a bloody human head in his hands as it was a ball . i ask my self what the hell dose this mean and then i saw other players of the game running around me ,then i looked and knew i was standing in the ball court ... it dosent look to have had rings from what i could see so far , and that means it could be as old as 1AD ,.... is this why chicomoztoc was a secerd place . is chicomoztoc where the game begain ..., my heart was raceing so bad i left .....i seat in the parking lot for a few mintues ,and wonder if anyone had seen me ,,....then i didnt stop till i hit new mexico ....

 

[Cynangyl]

Blindbowman wrote:

chicomoztoc has a ball court .....dose that answer all your questions ,,,,...

A ball court! Holy smoke! So the game continues! This ups the ante quite a bit amigo - and hints at possibilities I don't think I will post publicly. So - NO this doesn't answer my questions - it raises many MANY more. Dang it - here I had about given up on this conversation as possibly someone's idea of revenge, and this detail gets brought up changing the whole thing.

With a 'structure' the size of a ball court, this has to be quite large, certainly not something so small you could easily miss it right? Is the ball ring still intact and in place? Is it built of stone? Are there carvings on it? Gee Blindbowman you sure know how to get a guy's attention!
Oroblanco

you dont know the half of it . i was on my hands and knees looking for the vault near the garden and as went to stand up a saw a spirit of a AZtec run by with a bloody human head in hishas as it was a ball . i ask my self what the hell dose this mean and then i saw other players of the game running around me ,then i looked and knew i was standing in the ball court ... it dosent look to have had rings , and that means it could be as old as 1AD ,.... is this why chicomoztoc was a secerd place . is chicomoztoc where the game begain ...

Sounds fascinating. Hope you figure out everything and find what you seek! Sweet dreams all!

 

[Oroblanco]

Good night Cynangel - and ditto to you - hope you have "golden" dreams!

 

[cactusjumper]

bb,

Back so soon? I must admit that an Aztec Ballcourt never crossed my mind. Did it look anything like this?

Joe Ribaudo

 

[Oroblanco]

Just took a quick google and found a description of a Mayan ball court, the Great Court of Chichen Itza - some 545 feet long and 225 feet wide! This is larger than a football field. Here is a pic:

Of course Chichen Itza is thought to have the largest ball court of all but you get the idea. The Aztec ball game was a little different from Mayan, and the court is slightly different too:

Here is a description:

The Aztec ball game had a distinctive court known as the tlachtli or tlachco. The ball court was usually in the shape of an I, although there were some variations. Around the court was a slope, surrounded at the outer edge by walls about 8-11 feet high. The court was usually between 100 and 200 feet long, with a centre line, and six markers along the sloping walls. At centre court against the walls were two stone-carved rings, roughly 35 inches in diameter, often ornately carved in the form of an animal.

Surrounding the court were areas for spectators, nobles and judges. The structure would often include skull racks (tzompantli). These had a base with upright wood posts. Bars ran from post to post, adorned with the skulls of sacrifice victims. Sometimes the walls would show reliefs of the winners and losers of the past.

(from http://www.aztec-history.com/aztec-ball-game.html)

So you are saying it is something on this order? Thank you in advance,
Oroblanco

Postscript - just an observation, but seeing these ancient ruins which look so similar to modern arenas, theaters etc it is a reminder that we are not SO far advanced from those ancient folk; our gadgets may change over time, the mountains wash into the seas and seas dry up - yet man remains the same. (Paraphrasing a real poet.) Who among us would feel "out of place" to have a seat in those grandstands, watching a ball game, even if it were 400 years ago?

 

[the blindbowman]

older ,way older , older then the Hohokam oval shape courts same basic design as snaketowns , but i didnt want to deface the site by diging down to find a stone slap ... i dont know who coverd it up ... it could have been the tayopa church priest or someone before they got their . they planet their garden on top of it and i would think this was done knowing it was there maybe not ... i said i dont have all the aswer yet ...

but it is a ball court ...it has openings at ether end and looks to had 8-10 foot walls around it at one time ....the legend says the tribes came from chicomoztoc .. is this where the game started ....?

the court looks older then Hohokam yet older then aztec or mayan ...i have been researching courts and it is the oldest i have seen so far ...


i ask about the ladder because it must play some part with this court ...

 

[the blindbowman]

i have herd of a site near by at Wupatki, but i could find a photo of the ball court at that site to compair them ..

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Cyn luv, yopu posted -->

awww we dun have to ask your mule....I am sure you are all those things and more our beloved tropical tramp
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
you again confirmed my assesment on your intelligence and beauty :-
**************************************************************************************
cubber you posted-->

You two should probably get a room
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?? what in the world for?? Being a very, very sheltered Saint I haven't the faintest idea why we need a room?? snicker
**************************************************************************************
Cyn Amor you posted-->

rofl naaaw we don't need a room, he has his mule!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
If you are referring to my lovely, long, soft, velvety eared, huge expressive brown eyes, and as for that soft, rounded tummy sigh yes.
**************************************************************************************
cub you posted -->

The word "saddle sore" keeps coming to mind
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

As amatter if fact my first saddle was a discard out by the corral. It had been sitting in the sun for a couple of years and the leather was as hard as BB's heart. The seat had originally been leather, tacked in place, the leather was gone ,but not the tacks. Every hr or so, I had to stop, dismount, and beat them back down with a rock or lose my pants. As for the stirrups, the right one was twisted under her tummy.

Shortly before I had had a disaggreement with my aircraft - see picture --and had my right knee twisted so that I walked splay footed, i.e. right toe out to the right. The damn right stirrup insisted in twisting my right knee inwards. After an Hr I was shot, it hurt more than a Gall Bladder attack. It generally took 1/2 hr to walk again after the pain left.

I finally holed up at a spring and soaked the saddle, then put it on top of a fallen tree to reform it, it worked. Except for those damn tacks, it was almost a pleasure to ride on it . One day I found myself walking normally again, both feet straight ahead. That durn, twisty sturrup had acted as a traction device and had straightened the leg.
***************************************************************************************ORO mi compadre, you posted -->

Geez what dirty minds!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Why? only discussing a saddle and my sexy mule ??

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[Oroblanco]

I am speculating here so I beg your indulgence...

Blindbowman wrote:

i didnt want to deface the site by diging down to find a stone slap ... i dont know who coverd it up ... it could have been the tayopa church priest or someone before they got their . they planet their garden on top of it and i would think this was done knowing it was there maybe not

You are saying that the whole floor of the court (or most of it?) is not exposed but covered with dirt/earth; there are several possible explanations of why this is so, one being a deliberate covering as you suggest, the other being that it was naturally covered over time by sediments etc blown in by the wind or washed in by rains. The earth covering should provide some protection for the surface of the stone, assuming it has a stone floor?

Blindbowman also wrote:

the Hohokam oval shape courts same basic design as snaketowns

I didn't even know the Hohokam had ball courts. Are there any links you could suggest? Is it possible the ball court could be Hohokam, perhaps a variation of a more commonly seen type? The walls you mentioned, would they have been stone?

Like I said - sure raises more questions and gets my attention.

Blindbowman also wrote:

is this where the game started ....?

I am no expert on Amerindian ball games but I believe the game originated in the Mayans, and has to do with culture-heros who played against god-demons; the game or a variation of it spread to other Mesoamerican cultures. I don't recall reading anything about Chicomoztoc or Aztlan having a ball court - in fact amigo this might be the KEY evidence that could actually disprove that it is Chicomoztoc! The only reason I say this is - if we can prove that the Aztecs/Mexicas adopted the game from people in central Mexico or even farther south, and that this introduction of the game only occurred after their arrival south - then any site (Aztec or Mexica) found to have a ball court that seems to pre-date their adoption of the game must either be NOT Aztec/Mexica or it is younger than it appears. There is another factor too - for if there is no mention of a ball game or ball court in the original Aztlan/Chicomoztoc 'myth' and your site has a ball court - then it must not be Aztlan/Chicomoztoc but a later town/settlement.

IF this is the case, the site would be none the less astonishing or important; if I had found such a place I think I would be dragging an archaeologist by his heels if need be, to show it to him or her. Have you considered bringing an archaeologist in to see it? Thank you in advance,

Real de Tayopa wrote:

As amatter if fact my first saddle was a discard out by the corral. It had been sitting in the sun for a couple of years and the leather was as hard as BB's heart. The seat had originally been leather, tacked in place, the leather was gone ,but not the tacks. Every hr or so, I had to stop, dismount, and beat them back down with a rock or lose my pants. As for the stirrups, the right one was twisted under her tummy.

Shortly before I had had a disaggreement with my aircraft - see picture --and had my right knee twisted so that I walked splay footed, i.e. right toe out to the right.

Your description reminds me of my first saddle amigo, a borrowed McClellan that was a real veteran of the Indian wars, it had been modified by the Indian who had owned it last too. I was to inherit this, but it "vanished" - however it served me well for years. I see by your photo that you are an accomplished "bush" pilot (as they call them in the north country) - by any chance do you own a plane today? Such a vehicle would be a real boon for fossicking up north. Since you were able to "walk" (or hobble) away from that landing, it still counts as a "good" one!

Real de Tayopa also wrote:

<Oroblanco wrote>Geez what dirty minds!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Why? only discussing a saddle and my sexy mule Huh??

All this talk of mules and saddles amigo - without a hint of SADDLE SOAP! Very dirty!
Oroblanco

Oroblanco

 

[Oroblanco]

A quick poll - how many here have owned a horse or mule at some time? (Ponies and burros count!) Thank you in advance,
Oroblanco

 

[the blindbowman]

A quick poll - how many here have owned a horse or mule at some time? (Ponies and burros count!) Thank you in advance,
Oroblanco

i have had a few horses and a ponyat one time i have never had a donkey or mule to cute ....lol

 

[the blindbowman]

i got to get some sleep ,

 

[Oroblanco]

I figured you had amigo - and this is drifting off-topic but do you ever go to the Unadilla (NY) sale? I used to make a minimum of one trip there annually, from about the age of 1 on. (a fellow named Chambers owned it, not sure today) Heck I don't know but that Unadilla might be a long way from your home, just remembered that auction barn and many horses we bought and sold there.

It is funny how many parallels you can find among a bunch of treasure hunters, most of whom have never met in 'real life' - not just in our interests but in experiences as well.

I got to go find out when and where the ball game was invented among the Amerindians, for it might be a key to un-lock the secret. Good night amigo, like I said to Cynangel - hope all your dreams are "golden" ones!
Oroblanco

Postscript - another observation, but I wonder if a set of experiences will tend to produce a treasure hunter? Or are treasure hunters born that way? Maybe I can get a government GRANT $$$$$$ to do a "scientifical study"?

 

[cactusjumper]

Probably the Olmec.

Joe

 

[Oroblanco]

Thanks Joe - a quick search online found a little bit:

(From Wiki)
According to Wikipedia, (which as we all know is on a par with Brittanica or Websters for utter accuracy right? ) the game dates back to at least 1400 BC. So unless Aztlan dates to that period and is located in one of those regions, then the Aztec/Mexica adopted the game or rather they invented their own variant of it at Aztlan, then finding a ball court would tend to point toward a site NOT being Aztlan, at least working from a lot of speculation and a little information. Does this line of reasoning make sense or am I drifting way off into space?

Maybe I am drifting - for it is possible that the game was invented elsewhere, but that the Aztec/Mexica adopted it while still living in Aztlan/Chicomoztoc right? Unless we can prove exactly when and where they did adopt it and it is later. I never thought to look into the history of the ball game before tonight. (Never had any reason to, to be perfectly honest)

The Olmec are one of the most interesting cultures in the Americas IMHO, one look at their colossal stone heads is enough to pique your curiosity. Some look quite African to me, and some of their carved images look quite Semitic. Not exactly what you would expect to find in any ancient American site!

Oroblanco

 

[the blindbowman]

Oasisamerica
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Oasisamerica was a broad cultural area in pre-Columbian North America. It extended from modern-day Utah down to southern Chihuahua, and from the Sonoran coast on the Gulf of California eastward to the Río Bravo river valley. Its name comes from its position between the similar regions of Mesoamerica and nomadic Aridoamerica.

As opposed to their nomadic Aridoamerican neighbors, the Oasisamericans were primarily an agricultural society. Yet the climate did not permit very efficient cultivation as in Mesoamerica, and so they often resorted to hunting and gathering to meet their dietary needs.


Geography
The term "Oasisamerica" is derived from a combination of the terms oasis and America. It refers to a wild land dominated by the Rocky Mountains and the Sierra Madre Occidental. To the east and west of these enormous mountain ranges stretch the grand arid plains of the Sonora, Chihuahua, and Arizona Deserts. At its height, Oasisamerica covered part of the present-day Mexican states of Chihuahua and Sonora, as well as the U.S. states of Arizona, Utah, New Mexico, Colorado, Nevada, and California.

Despite being a basically dry land, Oasisamerica is scored by several bodies of running water like the Yaqui, Bravo, Colorado, and Gila Rivers. The presence of these rivers (and even some lakes that have since been swallowed by the desert), combined with a climate that was much milder that eastern Aridoamerica, allowed the development of agricultural techniques that were imported from Mesoamerica.


Characteristics of the Oasisamerican cultures

Cultural development
The story of the origins of the cultural superarea of Mesoamerica takes place some 2 thousand years after the separation of Mesoamerica and Aridoamerica. Some of the Aridoamerican communities farmed as a complement to their hunter-gatherer economy. Those communities, among whom one finds adherents to the Desert Tradition, later would become more truly agricultural and form Oasisamerica. The process of introducing agriculture in the desert-like land of northern Mexico and the southern United States was gradual and extensive: by the year 600 A.D. (a time which coincides with the twilight of Teotihuacan), several groups had already acquired agricultural techniques.

Based on maize remnants found in Bat Cave, Arizona, it appears that agriculture practices date back to at least 3500 B.C. Given that the oldest traces of maize in North America date back to the year 5000 B.C., it would seem that the hypothesis of importation of agriculture from the south is correct. It is less certain who brought the agricultural technology and what role they played in the development of the high cultures of Oasisamerica.

A pebble of turquoise, one of the principal trade goods of the Oasisamericans.At least three hypotheses have been proposed to explain the birth of the cultures of Oasisamerica. One, an endogenous model, posits an independent cultural development whose roots lie deep in antiquity. From this point of view, thanks to a superior climate (a relatively arbitrary assertion since the climatic difference between Oasisamerica Aridoamerica is not pronounced), the ancient desert communities would have been able to develop agriculture much as the Mesoamericans did.

A second hypothesis presupposes that the nomads of the Mesoamerican culture slowly moved northward over time. Thus, the Oasisamericans would be an offshoot of their neighbors to the south. In this view, the development of the Oasisamerican cultures, much like the northern Mesoamerican cultures, began with a group of outsiders who where closely tied to the local original inhabitants of western Mexico. Archaeological evidence indicates that yuto-nahuan groups brought agriculture to Oasisamerica. Even if agricultural techniques were imported from the south, the Oasisamerican communities developed their own distinct characteristics that bore many similarities to the agricultural traditions of Middle America.

There are many indications of a close relationship between the two great cultural regions of North America. For one, the turquoise that the Mesoamericans prized so dearly came almost exclusively from southern New Mexico and Arizona. Demand for this good alone may have played a large part in establishing trade relationships between the two cultural areas. At the same time, in Paquimé, a site connected to the Mogollon culture, there have been found ceremonial structures related to Mesoamerican religion, like the juego de pelota, and an important number of skeletons of guacamayas that were carefully transported from the forests of southeastern Mexico.


Cultural areas
The area encompassed by Oasisamerica fostered the growth of three great cultures: the Anasazi, the Hohokam, and the Mogollon, all of which existed among other surrounding cultures including the Fremont, Patayan, and Trincheras.


Anasazi
Ceramic bowl from Chaco Canyon in New Mexico which belonged to the Pueblo III phase. Archaeological site at Chaco Canyon, one of the principal sites of Anasazi culture.Main article: Ancient Pueblo Peoples
The Anasazi culture flourished in the region currently known as the Four Corners. The territory was covered by juniper forests which the ancient peoples learned to exploit for their own needs, since foraging among the other vegetation only sufficed for half of the year, only to fail from November to April. The Anasazi society is one of the most complex to be found in Oasisamerica, and they are assumed to be the ancestors of the modern Pueblo people (including the Zuñi and Hopi).

The Anasazi is without a doubt the most intensely studied Pre-Columbian culture in the United States. Archaeological investigation has established a sequence of cultural development that began before the first century B.C. and extended to 1540 A.D. when the Pueblo Indians were subjugated by the Spanish Crown. This long period encompasses the Basketmaker I, II, and III phases followed by the Pueblo I, II, III, and IV phases. The Basketmaker I phase, beginning before the first century B.C., marks the transition of the Anasazi from a nomadic lifestyle to a sedentary agricultural lifestyle based on the cultivation of maize (introduced to the region around 750 B.C.). In the Basketmaker II phase, the Anasazi took up residence in caves and rocky shelters, and in Basketmaker III (400-700 A.D.) they constructed the first subterranean cities with up to four abodes in a circular arrangement.

The Pueblo period begins with the development of ceramics. The most prominent feature of these ceramics is the predominance of pieces of a white or red color with black designs. During the Pueblo I phase (700-900 A.D.), the Anasazi developed their first irrigation systems, and their former subterranean habitations were slowly replaced by houses constructed of masonry. Pueblo II (900-1100) is defined by the construction of great works of architecture, including multi-family, multi-story dwellings. The following phase of Pueblo III (1100-1300) witnessed the greatest expansion of Anasazi agriculture as well as the construction of large regional communication networks that would persist until the Pueblo IV phase. In Pueblo IV, much of the earlier society disintegrated along with the communication networks. Cities were abandoned, and many of the region's inhabitants returned to an economy based on hunting and gathering.

A Hopi woman dressing the hair of an unmarried girl in her tribe.The reasons underpinning the decline of the Anasazi remain somewhat of a mystery. The phenomenon is thought to be associated with a prolonged drought that befell the region from 1276 to 1299. The time after this great drought and until the arrival of the Spaniards in Arizona is almost completely unknown. When the Europeans arrived at the Anasazi region, it was populated by the Pueblo Indians, a group without a unified ethnicity. The Zuñi had no apparent relatives; the Hopi spoke an Uto-aztecan language; the Tewas and Tiwas were Tanoanos and the Navajo were Athabaskans. It is not known how the last group arrived in the mix, only that they were a group of hunters who originally came from Canada and eventually were assimilated into the larger culture of the Oasisamericans.

The religion of the Pueblo Indians was based upon the worship of plant-like deities and the fertility of the earth. They believed that supernatural beings called the kachina had come to the surface of the earth from the sipapu (center of the earth) at the moment of the creation of the human race. Worship in Pueblo societies was organized by secret all-male groups that met in kivas. The members of these secret societies claimed to represent the kachina.


Hohokam
The Gila River was vitally important in the development of the Hohokam culture.Main article: Hohokam
In contrast to their Anasazi neighbors to the north, the nomadic communities of the Hohokam culture are poorly understood. They occupied the desert-like lands of Arizona and Sonora. The Hohokam territory is bounded by two large rivers, the Colorado and Gila Rivers, that outline the heart of the Sonora Desert. The surrounding ecosystem presented many challenges to agriculture and human life because of its high temperatures and scant rainfall. Due to these factors, the Hohokam were forced to construct irrigation systems with elaborate webs of reservoirs and canals for the Salt and Gila rivers that could reach several meters in depth and 10 km in length. Thanks to these canals, the Hohokam harvested as many as two crops of corn annually, which nicely complemented their other crops of pitaya and mezquite, from which they obtained flour, honey, alcohol, and wood.

The principal settlements of the Hohokam culture were Snaketown, Casa Grande, Red Mountain, and Pueblo de los Muertos, all of which are to be found in modern-day Arizona. A slightly different branch of the Hohokam people is known as the Trincheras, named after their most well-known site in the Sonora Desert. The Hohokam lived in small communities of several hundred people. Their lifestyle was very similar to that of the Anasazi in their Basketmaker III phase: semisubterranean but with spacious interiors. Hohokam ceramics are distinguished from those of their Anasazi and Mogollon neighbors by the predominance of a bluish color with red decorations. Several other artifacts are unique to the Hohokam, including conch necklaces (imported from the coastal regions of Greater California and Sonora) etched with acids produced by pitaya fermentation; and axes, trowels, and other stone instruments.

Archaeologists dispute the origins and ethnic identity of the Hohokam culture. Some hold that the culture developed endogenously (without outside influence), pointing to Snaketown which had its origins in the fourth century B.C. Others believe the culture to be a product of migration from Mesoamerica. In defense of this line of thought, proponents point to the fact that Hohokam ceramics appeared in 300 B.C. (also the time of Snaketown's founding), and that before this time, there was no indication of an independent regional development of ceramics. Along the same line of reasoning, several other technological advances like the canal works and certain cultural phenomena like cremation seem to have originated in western Mesoamerica.

The development of the Hohokam culture is divided into four periods: Pioneer (300 B.C.-550 A.D.), Colonial (550 A.D.-900 A.D.), Sedentary (900-1100), and Classical (1100-1450). The Pioneer period commenced with the construction of the canal works, and the Hohokam constructed semisubterranean dwellings in order to protect themselves from the blistering heat of the Sonoran Desert. In the Colonial period, ties were strengthened with Mesoamerica. Proof of this can be found in the recovery of copper bells, pyrite mirrors, and the construction of sports fields for playing juego de pelota, all of which display a very Hohokam touch. The relations with Mesoamerica and the presence of such traded goods indicate that by the Colonial period the Hohokam had already become organized into chiefdoms and centers of power. Relations with Mesoamerica would diminish in the following period, and the Hohokam turned to construct multi-story buildings like Casa Grande, which had four levels.

By the time the Europeans arrived in the Arizona and Sonora Deserts, a region which they named Pimería Alta, the urban centers of the Hohokam had already become abandoned presumably due to the health and ecological disasters that befell the indigenous social system. The inhabitants of the region were called pápagos, a group which spoke an uto-aztecan language. This community had an economy based on foraging and incipient agriculture on mountain slopes. They were a semi-nomadic people, probably because they had to migrate in order to compensate for the scarcity of food resources in the foothills of the mountains they called home.


Mogollon
The Mogollon Mountains in southeastern New Mexico.Main article: Mogollon
The Mogollon was a cultural area of Mesoamerica that extended from the foothills of the Sierra Madre Occidental, northward to Arizona and New Mexico in the southwestern United States. Some scholars prefer to distinguish between two broad cultural traditions in this area: the Mogollon itself and the Paquime culture that was derived from it. Either way, the peoples who inhabited the area in question adapted well to a landscape that was marked by the presence of pine forests and steep mountains and ravines.

In contrast to their Hohokam and Anasazi neighbors to the north, the Mogollons usually buried their dead. The culture's graves often included ceramic art and semiprecious stones. Because the Mogollon burial sites displayed such wealth, they were often looted by grave robbers who sought to sell their spoils on the archaeological black market.

Perhaps the most impressive Mogollon ceramic tradition was to be found in the valley of the Mimbres River in New Mexico. The ceramic production of this region became most developed between the eighth and twelfth centuries. It was characterized by white pieces decorated with stylized representations of daily life in the community that created them. This was a very exceptional approach in a cultural area whose pottery was otherwise dominated by geometric patterns.

As another contrast with the Hohkam and Anasazi, there is no widely-accepted chronology for the development of the Mogollon culture. The scholars López Austin and López Luján, for their historical analysis of the region, borrowed a chronology proposed earlier by Paul Martin, who himself divided Mogollon history into two general periods; the "Early" period runs from 500 B.C. until 1000 A.D., and the "Late" period begins in the eleventh and goes to the sixteenth century.

The first period featured a more or less slow cultural development. Technological changes were produced very gradually, and the form of social relationships and organizational patterns remained almost static for 1500 years. During the Early period, the Mogollons lived in rocky dwellings from which they defended themselves from the incursions of their hunter neighbors. Much like the Hohokam and Anasazi, the Mogollon also lived in semisubterranean abodes that often featured a kiva.

In the eleventh century, the population in the Mogollon area multiplied much more rapidly than it had in the preceding centuries. It is probably that in this period, the area benefited from trade relations with Mesoamerica, a fact that facilitated the development of agriculture and the stratification of society. It is also possible that Anasazi influence could have grown at this time, because the Mogollon began to construct buildings of masonry, just like their northern neighbors.

The Mogollon culture reached its height in the fourteenth and fifteenth centuries. At this time, the culture's major centers grew in population, size, and power. Paquime, in Chihuahua, was perhaps the largest of those. It dominated a mountainous region that contains many archaeological sites known as casas alcantilado, outposts constructed in hard-to-reach caves on the eastern slopes of the Sierra Madre. Paquime traded with the heart of Mesoamerica, to which it provided precious minerals like turquoise and cinnabar. It also controlled the trade of certain products from the coasts of the Gulf of California, especially its Nassarius conch shells. Paquime received heavy influence from the Mesoamerican societies, as evidenced by the presence of arenas for the Mesoamerican ballgame and the remains of animals native to tropical Central America like the macaw.

The decline of the main centers of Mogollon power began in the thirteenth century, even before the apex of Paquime. By the fifteenth century, a large part of the region had become abandoned by its former inhabitants. Some of the groups that had been associated with the Paquime culture sought refuge in the Sierra Madre, while others fled to the north where they combined with the Anasazi. The people of the Mimbres River emigrated and eventually settled in present-day Coahuila. It is supposed that the Taracahitas (including the Yaquis, Mayos, Opatas, and Tarahumaras) that currently live in northeastern Mexico are descendants of the Mogollones.


Fremont
The Fremont area covered a large part of modern-day Utah. It was situated to the north of the Anasazi cultural area. Its cultural development as a part of Oasisamerica took place between the fifth and fourteenth centuries. Scholars contend that that the Fremont culture was derived from the Anasazi culture. Theoretically, the Freemont communities would have emigrated toward the north, bringing with them the customs, social organization structures, and technology of the Anasazi. This hypothesis neatly explains the presence of ceramics in Utah that are very similar to those found in Mesa Verde.

A second hypothesis suggests that the Fremont culture may have been derived from buffalo-hunting societies, probably from a culture of Atapascan origin. As time passed, the foreign culture would have adopted the culture of their southern neighbors. In both this theory and the aforementioned, there is a justification for the less-complex development in Fremont as opposed to other regions of Oasisamerica because of their more suitable climates for agriculture.

The decay of the Fremont culture began as early as the second half of the tenth century and was completed in the fourteenth. Upon the Spaniards' arrival, the region was occupied by the Shoshones, an Uto-Aztecan community.


Pataya
Main article: Patayan
The Patayan area occupies the western part of Oasisamerica. It is comprised of the modern-day states of California and Arizona in the U.S., and Baja California and Sonora in Mexico. The Patayans were a peripheral culture whose cultural development was probably influenced by their Hohokam neighbors to the east. From them they would have learned the Mesoamerican ballgame, cremation techniques, and techniques for the production of ceramics. Some scholars argue that the coastal region around the Gulf of California (within the Patayan area) was occupied by another, separate culture called the Trincheras. Their name is taken from the nearby site found in the Sonora Desert.

The Patayan culture began to disappear in the fourteenth century. When the Spanish arrived in the region, the Colorado River Valley was only occupied by the river-dwelling Yuman or rieños.


See also
Mesoamerica
Aridoamerica
...

Wikipedia: Aridoamerica
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Aridoamerica was a broad cultural area in pre-Columbian North America used to describe the northern region of Mexico, in contrast to Mesoamerica (the south). There came a need to do this because of the vast differences between these two regions. Some archaeologists even delineate a third buffer zone, Oasisamerica. Unlike Mesoamerica, Aridoamerica had a dry, arid climate and geography. Because of the hard conditions, the people in this region were nomadic. The indigenous groups that occupied this land came to be known as Chichimecas, meaning barbaric, or uncivilized. The current Mexican states that lie in Aridoamerica are:

Aguascalientes
Baja California
Baja California Sur
Coahuila
Chihuahua
Durango
Nuevo León
San Luis Potosí
Sonora
Tamaulipas
Zacatecas
The northern parts of:

Hidalgo
Guanajuato
Querétaro
Jalisco
Sinaloa

See also
Mesoamerica
Oasisamerica

 

[the blindbowman]

...
Wikipedia: Mesoamerica
This article is about the culture area. For other uses, see Mesoamerica (disambiguation).
Location of Mesoamerica in the Americas.Mesoamerica or Meso-America (Spanish: Mesoamérica) is a region in the mid-latitudes of the Americas, namely the culture area within which a number of pre-Columbian societies flourished before the Spanish colonization of the Americas in the 15th and 16th centuries.[1][2][3] The culture area extends from central Honduras and northwestern Costa Rica on the south to, in Mexico, the Soto la Marina River in Tamaulipas and the Rio Fuerte in Sinaloa on the north. Prehistoric groups in this area are characterized by agricultural villages and large ceremonial and politico-religious capitals [4] This culture area included some of the most complex and advanced cultures of the Americas, including the Olmec, Teotihuacan, the Maya, and the Aztec. These cultures developed complex sociopolitical systems, reached advanced technological, scientific, and mathematical levels, and participated in long-distance interaction networks that resulted in the transmission of interrelated ideas and ideology.

Mesoamerica may also refer to the contemporary region (largely coincident with the ancient region) comprising the countries of Central America and nine southeastern states of Mexico: Campeche, Chiapas, Guerrero, Oaxaca, Puebla, Quintana Roo, Tabasco, Veracruz, and Yucatán. In addition to historical linguistic and cultural similarities, the territories within this region exhibit increasing socioeconomic integration.[5]


Etymology and definition
The term Mesoamerica – literally, "middle America" – was first used by the German ethnologist Paul Kirchhoff,[6] who noted that similarities existed among the various pre-Columbian cultures within the region that included southern Mexico, Guatemala, Belize, El Salvador, western Honduras, and the Pacific lowlands of Nicaragua and northwestern Costa Rica. In the tradition of cultural-history, the prevalent archaeological theory of the early to middle 20th century, Kirchhoff defined this zone as a culture area based on a suite of interrelated cultural similarities brought about by millennia of inter- and intra-regional interaction (i.e., diffusion). These included sedentism, agriculture (specifically a reliance on the cultivation of maize), the use of two different calendars (a 260 day ritual calendar and a 365 day calendar based on the solar year), a base 20 (vigesimal) number system, pictographic and hieroglyphic writing systems, the practice of various forms of sacrifice, and a complex of shared ideological concepts. Mesoamerica has also been shown to be a linguistic area defined by a number of grammatical traits that have spread through the area by diffusion.

Mesoamerica is recognized as a near prototypical cultural area and the term is now fully integrated in the standard terminology of pre-Columbian anthropological studies. Conversely, the sister terms Aridoamerica and Oasisamerica, which refer to northern Mexico and the western United States, respectively, have not entered into widespread usage.


Geography
Main article: Geography of Mesoamerica
Landscape of the Mesoamerican highlandsLocated on the isthmus joining North and South America between ca. 10° and 22° northern latitude, Mesoamerica possesses a complex combination of ecological systems, topographic zones, and environmental contexts. Archaeologist and anthropologist Michael D. Coe groups these different niches into two broad categories[cite this quote]: the lowlands (those areas between sea level and 1000 meters) and the altiplanos, or highlands (situated between 1000 and 2000 meters above sea level). In the low-lying regions, sub-tropical and tropical climates are most common, as is true for most of the coastline along the Pacific and Gulf of Mexico and the Caribbean Sea. The highlands show much more climatic diversity, ranging from dry tropical to cold mountainous climates, the dominant climate is temperate with warm temperatures and moderate rainfall. The rain fall varies, between the dry Oaxaca, and north Yucatan to the Humid southern Pacific and Caribbean lowlands.


Topography
Image:Guatemalahighlands.jpg‎ The Sierra Madre in Guatemala, showing the Atitlán and San Pedro volcanoesThere is extensive topographic variation in Mesoamerica, ranging from the high peaks circumscribing the Valley of Mexico and within the central Sierra Madre mountains to the low flatlands of the northern Yucatán Peninsula. The tallest mountain in Mesoamerica is Pico de Orizaba, a dormant volcano located one the border of Puebla and Veracruz. Its peak elevation is 5,636 m (18,490 ft).

The Sierra Madre mountains, which consist of a number of smaller ranges, run from northern Mesoamerican south through Costa Rica. The chain is historically volcanic. In central and southern Mexico, a portion of the Sierra Madre chain is known as the Eje Volcánico Transversal, or the Trans-Mexican volcanic belt. There are 83 inactive and active volcanoes within the Sierra Madre range, including 11 in Mexico, 37 in Guatemala, 7 in El Salvador, 25 in Nicaragua, and 3 in northwestern Costa Rica. According to the Michigan Technological University[1], 16 of these are still active. The tallest active volcano is Popocatépetl at 5,452 m (17,883 ft). This volcano, which retains its Nahuatl name, is located 70 km southeast of Mexico City. Other volcanoes of note include Tacana on the Mexico-Guatemala border, Tajumulco and Santamaría in Guatemala, Izalco in El Salvador, Momotombo in Nicaragua, and Arenal in Costa Rica.

One important topographic feature is the Isthmus of Tehuantepec, a low plateau that breaks up the Sierra Madre chain between the Sierra Madre del Sur to the north and the Sierra Madre de Chiapas to the south. At its highest point, the Isthmus is 224 meters (735 feet) above mean sea level. This area also represents the shortest distance between the Gulf of Mexico and the Pacific Ocean in Mexico. The distance between the two coasts is roughly 200 kilometers (120 miles). Although the northern side of the Isthmus is swampy and covered with dense jungle, the Isthmus of Tehuantepec, as the lowest and most level point within the Sierra Madre mountain chain, was nonetheless a main transportation, communication, and economic route within Mesoamerica.


Bodies of water
Outside of the northern Maya lowlands, rivers are common throughout Mesoamerica. A number of the more important ones served as loci of human occupation in the area. The longest river in Mesoamerica is the Usumacinta, which forms in Guatemala at the convergence of the Salinas or Chixoy, and La Pasion River and runs north for 970 km (480 km of which are navigable), eventually draining into the Gulf of Mexico. Other rivers of note include the Rio Grande de Santiago, the Grijalva River, the Motagua River, the Ulúa River, and the Hondo River. The northern Maya lowlands, especially the north portion of the Yucatán peninsula, are notable for its nearly complete lack of rivers (largely due to its absolute lack of topographic variation). Additionally, no lakes exist in the northern peninsula. The main source of water in this area, therefore, is sub-surface, and consists of water from aquifers that which is retained within cenotes.

With an area of 8264 km², Lake Nicaragua is the largest lake in Mesoamerica. Lake Chapala is Mexico’s largest freshwater lake, but Lake Texcoco is perhaps the most well-known as the location upon which Tenochtitlan, capital of the Aztec Empire, was founded. Lake Petén Itzá, in northern Guatemala, is notable as the location at which the last independent Maya city, Tayasal (or Noh Petén), held out until 1697. Other large lakes include Lake Atitlán, Lake Izabal, Lake Güija, Lemoa, and Lake Managua.


Biodiversity
Image:El mirador tigre.jpg‎ The Maya Biosphere Reserve, showing the El Tigre Complex at El Mirador, GuatemalaThere are almost all ecosystems in Mesoamerica, the more notorious are the Caribbean Coral Reef, the second largest in the world, and the Bosawas Biosphere Reserve, second in size to the Amazonas.[7] The Highlands present mix and conifer forest. The biodiversity is among the richest in the world, although the number of species in the red list of the IUCN is growing every year.


Cultural sub-areas
Mesoamerica and its cultural areas.There are a number of distinct sub-regions within Mesoamerica that are defined by a convergence of geographic and cultural attributes. These sub-regions are more conceptual than culturally meaningful, and the demarcation of their limits is not rigid. The Maya area, for example, can be divided into two general groups: the lowlands and highlands. The lowlands are further divided into the southern and northern Maya lowlands. The southern Maya lowlands are generally conceptualized as encompassing northern Guatemala, southern Campeche and Quintana Roo in Mexico, and Belize. The northern lowlands cover the remainder of the northern portion of the Yucatán Peninsula. Other areas include Central Mexico, West Mexico, the Gulf Coast Lowlands, Oaxaca, the Southern Pacific Lowlands, and Southeast Mesoamerica (including northern Honduras).


Chronology and culture
Main article: Mesoamerican chronology
The history of human occupation in Mesoamerica is divided among a number of stages or periods. These are known, with slight variation depending on region, as the Paleo-Indian, the Archaic, the Preclassic (or Formative), the Classic, and the Postclassic. The last three periods, representing the core of Mesoamerican cultural fluorescence, are further divided into two or three sub-phases. Most of the time following the arrival of the Spanish in the 16th century is lumped into the Colonial period.

The differentiation of early periods (i.e., up through the end of the Late Preclassic) generally reflects different configurations of socio-cultural organization that are characterized by increasing socio-political complexity, the adoption of new and different subsistence strategies, and changes in economic organization (including increased interregional interaction). The Classic period through the Postclassic are differentiated by the cyclical crystallization and fragmentation of the various political entities throughout Mesoamerica.


Paleo-Indian
Obsidian projectile point from Puerta Parada, GuatemalaThe Mesoamerican Paleo-Indian period precedes the advent of agriculture and is characterized by a nomadic hunting and gathering subsistence strategy. Big-game hunting, similar to that seen in contemporaneous North America, was a large component of the subsistence strategy of the Mesoamerican Paleo-Indian. Evidence for this time period in Mesoamerica is sparse and the documented sites scattered Ca 10,500 DC. These include Chivacabé, Los Tapiales, and Puerta Parada in the highlands of Guatemala, Orange Walk in Belize, and the El Gigante cave in Honduras. [citation needed] This latter sites had a number of obsidian blades and Clovis style fluted projectile points. Fishtail points, the most common style in South America, were recovered from Puerta Parada, dated to ca. 10,000 BC, as well as other sites including Los Grifos cave in Chiapas (ca. 8500 BC) and Iztapan (ca. 7700 – 7300 BC), a mammoth kill site located in the Valley of Mexico near Texcoco. [citation needed]

Archaic
The Archaic period (8000-2000 BC) is characterized by the rise of incipient agriculture in Mesoamerica. The initial phases of the Archaic involved the cultivation of wild plants, transitioning into informal domestication and culminating with sedentism and agricultural production by the close of the period. Archaic sites include Sipacate in Escuintla, Guatemala, where maize pollen samples date to ca. 3500 BC. [citation needed] The well known Coxcatlan cave site in the Valley of Tehuacán, Puebla, which contains over 10,000 teosinte cobs (an antecedent to maize), and Guila Naquitz in Oaxaca represent some of the earliest examples of agriculture in Mesoamerica. The early development of pottery, often seen as a sign of sedentism, has been documented as a number of sites, including the West Mexican sites of Matanchén in Nayarit and Puerto Marqués in Guerrero. La Blanca, Ocós, and Ujuxte in the Pacific Lowlands of Guatemala yielded pottery dated to ca. 2500 BC. [citation needed]


Preclassic/Formative
See also: Olmec influences on Mesoamerican cultures
A Middle Preclassic palace structure at Nakbé, the Mirador BasinThe first complex civilization to develop in Mesoamerica were the Olmec, who inhabited the gulf coast region of Veracruz throughout the Preclassic period. The main sites of the Olmec include San Lorenzo Tenochtitlán, La Venta, and Tres Zapotes. Although specific dates vary, these sites were occupied from roughly 1200 to 400 BC. Remains of other early cultures, possibly related to, or interacting with, the Olmec, have been found at Takalik Abaj, Izapa, and Teopantecuanitlan, and as far south as in Honduras. [citation needed] Research in the Pacific Lowlands of Chiapas and Guatemala suggest that the Monte Alto Culture may have preceded the Olmec. Radiocarbon samples associated with various sculptures found at the Late Preclassic site of Izapa suggest a date of between 1800 and 1500 BC. [2]PDF (10.1 KiB). It is, however, unclear to what extent the Monte Alto culture had developed at this point, as the majority of archaeological information from the area pertains to the Middle and Late Preclassic (i.e., contemporaneous with the Olmec).

The Middle and Late Preclassic witnessed the rise of the Maya in the southern Maya highlands and lowlands and at a few sites in the northern Maya lowlands. The earliest Maya sites coalesced after 1000 BC, and include Nakbe, El Mirador, and Cerros. Middle to Late Preclassic Maya sites include Kaminaljuyú, Cival, Edzná, Cobá, Lamanai, Komchen, Dzibilchaltun, and San Bartolo, among others.

The Preclassic in the central Mexican highlands is represented by such sites as Tlapacoya, Tlatilco, and Cuicuilco. These sites eventually gave rise to Teotihuacán, an important site which would eventually dominate economic and interaction spheres throughout Mesoamerica. The settlement of Teoithuacan is dated to later portion of the Late Preclassic, or roughly A.D. 50.

In the Valley of Oaxaca, San José Mogote represents one of the oldest permanent agricultural villages in the area, and one of the first to use pottery. During the Early and Middle Preclassic, the site developed some of the earliest examples of defensive palisades, ceremonial structures, the use of adobe, and hieroglyphic writing. Also importantly, the site was one of the first to demonstrate inherited status, signifying a radical shift in socio-cultural and political structure. San José Mogote would eventual be overtaken by Monte Albán, the subsequent capital of the Zapotec empire, during the Late Preclassic.


Classic

Early Classic
The Classic period is marked by the rise and dominance of several polities. The traditional distinction between the Early and Late Classic are marked by their changing fortune and their ability to maintain regional primacy. Of paramount importance are Teotihuacán in central Mexico and Tikal in Guatemala – indeed, the Early Classic’s temporal limits generally correlate to the main periods of these sites. Monte Alban in Oaxaca is another Classic period polity that expanded and floresced during this period, but the Zapotec capital exerted less interregional influence than the other two sites.

During the Early Classic, Teotihuacan participated in and perhaps dominated a far-reaching macro-regional interaction network. Architectural and artifact styles (talud-tablero, tripod slab-footed ceramic vessels) epitomized at Teotihuacan were mimicked and adopted at many distant settlements. Pachuca obsidian, whose trade and distribution is argued to have been economically controlled by Teotihuacan, is found throughout Mesoamerica.

Tikal came to politically, economically, and militarily dominate much of the southern Maya lowlands during the Early Classic. An exchange network centered at Tikal distributed a variety of goods and commodities throughout southeast Mesoamerica, such as obsidian imported from central Mexico (e.g., Pachuca) and highland Guatemala (e.g., El Chayal, which was predominantly used by the Maya during the Early Classic), and Jadefrom the Motagua valley in Guatemala. Carved inscriptions at the site attest to direct interaction with individuals adorned in Teotihuacan-styled dress ca 400 AD. [citation needed] However, Tikal was often in conflict with other polities in the Petén Basin, as well as with others outside of it, including Uaxactun, Caracol, Dos Pilas, Naranjo, and Calakmul. Towards the end of the Early Classic, this conflict would lead to Tikal’s military defeat at the hands of Caracol in 562 and a period commonly known as the Tikal Hiatus.


Late Classic
The Late Classic period (beginning ca. AD 600 until AD 800/850 [varies]) is characterized as a period of interregional competition and factionalization among the numerous regional polities in the Maya area. This largely resulted from the decrease in Tikal’s socio-political and economic power at the beginning. It was during this time that a number of other sites, therefore, rose to regional prominence and were able to exert greater interregional influence, including Caracol, Copán, Palenque, and Calakmul (who was allied with Caracol and may have assisted in the defeat of Tikal), and Dos Pilas Aguateca and Cancuén in the Petexbatún region of Guatemala. Around 710 DC, Tikal arouses again and started to build strong alliances and defeating its worst enemies. In the Maya area, the Late Classic ended with the so-called Maya "collapse," a transitional period coupling the general depopulation of the southern lowlands and development and fluorescence of centers in the northern lowlands.


Terminal Classic
Generally applied to the Maya area, the Terminal Classic roughly spans the time between AD 800/850 and ca. AD 1000. Overall, it generally correlates the rise to prominence of Puuc settlements in the northern Maya lowlands, so named after the hills in which they are mainly found. Puuc settlements are specifically associated with a unique architectural style (the "Puuc architectural style") that represents a technological departure from previous construction techniques. Major Puuc sites include Uxmal, Sayil, Labna, Kabah, and Oxkintok. While generally concentrating within the area in and around the Puuc hills, the style has been documented as far away as at Chichen Itza to the east and Edzna to the south.

Chichén Itzá was originally thought to have been a Postclassic site in the northern Maya lowlands. Research over the past few decades has established that it was first settled during the Early/Late Classic transition but rose to prominence during the Terminal Classic and Early Postclassic. During its apogee, this widely known site economically and politically dominated the northern lowlands. Its participation in the circum-peninsular exchange route, possible through its port site of Isla Cerritos, allowed Chichén Itzá to remain highly connected to areas such as central Mexico and Central America. The apparent “Mexicanization” of architecture at Chichén Itzá led past researchers to believe that Chichén Itzá existed under the control of a Toltec empire. Chronological data refutes this early interpretation, and it is now known that Chichén Itzá predated the Toltec; Mexican architectural styles are now used as an indicator of strong economic and ideological ties between the two regions.


Postclassic
The Postclassic (beginning AD 900-1000, depending on area) is, like the Late Classic, characterized by the cyclical crystallization and fragmentation of various polities. The main Maya centers were located in the northern lowlands. Following Chichén Itzá, whose political structure collapsed during the Early Postclassic, Mayapán rose to prominence during the Middle Postclassic and dominated the north for ca. 200 years. After Mayapán’s fragmentation, political structure in the northern lowlands revolved around a number of large towns or city-states, such as Oxkutzcab and Ti’ho (Mérida, Yucatán), that competed with one another.

Toniná, in the Chiapas highlands, and Kaminaljuyú in the central Guatemala highlands, were important southern highland Maya centers. The latter site, Kaminaljuyú, is one of the longest occupied sites in Mesoamerica and was continuously inhabited from ca. 800 BC to around AD 1200. Other important highland Maya groups include the K'iche' of Utatlán, the Mam in Zaculeu, the Poqomam in Mixco Viejo, and the Kaqchikel at Iximche in the Guatemalan highlands. The Pipil resided in El Salvador, while the Ch'orti' were in eastern Guatemala and northwestern Honduras.

In central Mexico, the early portion of the Postclassic correlates with the rise of the Toltec and an empire based at their capital, Tula (also known as Tollan). Cholula, initially an important Early Classic center contemporaneous with Teotihuacan, maintained its political structure (it did not collapse) and continued to function as a regionally important center during the Postclassic. The latter portion of the Postclassic is generally associated with the rise of the Mexica and the Aztec empire. One of the more commonly known cultural groups in Mesoamerica, the Aztec politically dominated nearly all of central Mexico, the Gulf Coast, Mexico’s southern Pacific Coast (Chiapas and into Guatemala), Oaxaca, and Guerrero.

The Tarascans (also known as the P'urhépecha) were located in Michoacan and Guerrero. With their capital at Tzintzuntzan, the Tarascan state was one of only ones to actively and continuously resist Aztec domination during the Late Postclassic. Other important Postclassic cultures in Mesoamerica include the Totonac along the eastern coast (in the modern-day states of Veracruz, Puebla, and Hidalgo). El Tajín, initially built during the end of the Late Preclassic, was an important Totonac city. The Huastec resided north of the Totonac, mainly in the modern-day states of Tamaulipas and northern Veracruz. The Mixtec culture, centered at Mitla, inhabited Oaxaca.

The Postclassic ends with the arrival of the Spanish and their subsequent conquest of the Aztec between 1519 and 1521. It should be noted that many other cultural groups did not acquiesce until later. For example, Maya groups in the Petén area, including the Itza at Tayasal and the Ko'woj at Zacpeten, remained independent until 1697.

Some Mesoamerican cultures never achieved dominant status or left impressive archeological remains but should be mentioned as noteworthy. These include the Otomi, Mixe-Zoque groups (which may or may not have been related to the Olmecs), the northern Uto-aztecan groups, often referred to as the Chichimeca, that include the Cora and Huichol, the Chontales, the Huaves, and the Pipil, Xincan and Lencan peoples of Central America.

Period Timespan Important cultures, cities
Summary of the Chronology and Cultures of Mesoamerica Paleo-Indian 10,000-3500 BC Honduras, Guatemala, Belize, obsidian and Pyrite points, Iztapan, Mexico circa 7,500 BC
Archaic 3500-2000 BC Agricultural settlements, Tehuacán
Preclassic (Formative) B.C. 2000-250 AD Unknown culture in La Blanca and Ujuxte, Monte Alto Culture
Early Preclassic B.C. 2000-1000 Olmec area: San Lorenzo Tenochtitlan, La Venta,Chalcatzingo. Valley of Oaxaca: San José Mogote. The Maya area: Nakbe, Cerros
Middle Preclassic B.C. 1000-300 Olmec area: Tres Zapotes; Maya area: El Mirador, Izapa, Lamanai, Xunantunich, Naj Tunich, Takalik Abaj, Kaminaljuyú, Uaxactun; Valley of Oaxaca: Monte Albán
Late Preclassic B.C.E.300-250 AD Maya area: Uaxactun, Tikal, Edzná, Cival, San Bartolo, Altar de Sacrificios, Piedras Negras, Ceibal, Rio Azul. Central Mexico: Teotihuacan
Classic 250-900 AD Classic Maya Centers, Teotihuacan, Zapotec
Early Classic 250-600 AD Maya area: Calakmul, Caracol, Chunchucmil, Copán, Naranjo, Palenque, Quiriguá, Tikal, Uaxactun, Yaxha; Teotihuacan apogee; Zapotec apogee; Gulf Coast: El Tajín
Late Classic 600-900 AD Maya area: Uxmal, Toniná, Cobá, Waka', Pusilhá, Xultún, Dos Pilas, Cancuen, Aguateca. Central Mexico: Xochicalco, Cacaxtla,
Terminal Classic 800-900/1000 AD Maya area: Puuc sites - Uxmal, Labna, Sayil, Kabah
Postclassic 900-1519 AD Aztec, Tarascans, Mixtec, Totonac, Pipil, Itzá, Ko'woj, K'iche', Kaqchikel, Poqomam, Mam
Early Postclassic 900-1200 Cholula, Tula, Mitla, El Tajín, Tulum, Topoxte, Kaminaljuyú, Joya de Cerén
Late Postclassic 1200- 1519 AD Tenochtitlan, Cempoala, Tzintzuntzan, Mayapán, Ti'ho, Utatlán, Iximche, Mixco Viejo, Zaculeu
Post Conquest Until 1697 AD Central Peten: Tayasal , Zacpeten


General Characteristics

Subsistence
Main article: Agriculture in Mesoamerica
See also: Maya diet and subsistence
Examples of the diversity of maize.By roughly 6000 BC, hunter-gatherers living in the highlands and lowlands of Mesoamerica began to develop agricultural practices with early cultivation of squash and chiles. The earliest example of maize comes from Guila Naquitz, a cave in Oaxaca, that dates to ca. 4000 BC. It should be noted, however, that earlier maize samples have been documented at the Los Ladrones cave site in Panama, ca. 5500 BC [3]PDF. Slightly thereafter, other crops begin to be cultivated by the semi-agrarian communities throughout Mesoamerica.[8] Although maize is the most common domesticate, the common bean, tepary bean, scarlet runner bean, jicama, tomato and squash all become common cultivates by 3500 BC. At the same time, cotton, yucca and agave were exploited for fibers and textile materials.[9] By 2000 BC corn is the staple crop in the region and would remain so up through modern times. The Ramón or Breadnut tree (Brosimum alicastrum) was an occasional substitute for maize in producing flour. Fruit was also important in the daily diet of Mesoamerican cultures. Some of the main ones consumed include Avocado, Papaya, Guava, Mamey, Zapote, and Anona, among others.

Mesoamerica lacked animals suitable for domestication, most notably domesticated large ungulates and poultry, and as a result, the inhabitants of the region had to rely on hunting up until the Spanish arrived. There was, however, some domestication of other animals, including duck, deer, dogs, and turkey that were raised for meat. Turkey was the first of the four animals to be domesticated, occurring around 3500 BC.[10] Dog was clearly an important supplement to the diet of ancient Mesoamericans, as dog bones are common in midden deposits throughout the region. These animals were typically eaten around the age of one. The lack of larger animals for domestication was likely the result of climate change, as certain species of horse and cattle previously living in the region had gone extinct. Additionally, and related to this fact, Mesoamerican cultures lacked pack animals to assist in transportation; this is one notable difference between Mesoamerica and the cultures of the South American Andes.

Mesoamerican cultures that lived in the lowlands and coastal plains settled down in agrarian communities somewhat later than did highland cultures due to the fact that there was a greater abundance of fruits and animals in these areas which made a hunter-gatherer lifestyle more attractive.[11] Fishing also was a major provider of food to lowland and coastal Mesoamericans creating a further disincentive to settle down in permanent communities.

Societies of this region did hunt certain wild species to complement their diet. These animals included deer, rabbit, birds and various types of insects. They also hunted in order to gain luxury items such as cat fur and bird plumage.[12]


Architecture
Main article: Mesoamerican architecture

Political organization
K'inich Kan B'alam II, the Classic period ruler of Palenque, as depicted on a stelaCeremonial centers were the nuclei of Mesoamerican settlements.[cite this quote] They gave rise to urban development, in that towns were literally planned around the temple, being nothing more than an extension of the holy center, which for its part constituted the heart of the sacred space. The temples provided spatial orientation, which was imparted to the surrounding town. The cities with their commercial and religious centers were always political entities, somewhat similar to the European city-state, and each person could identify themself with the city in which they lived.[cite this quote]

The ceremonial centers were always built to be visible. The pyramids were meant to stand out from the rest of the city, to represent its gods and their powers. Another characteristic feature of the ceremonial centers is historic layers. All of the ceremonial edifices were built in various phases, one on top of the other, to the point that what we now see is usually the last stage of construction. Ultimately, the ceremonial centers were the architectural translation of the identity of each city, as represented by the veneration of their gods and masters.[cite this quote] Stelae were common public monuments throughout Mesoamerica, and served to commemorate notable successes, events and dates associated with the rulers and nobility of the various sites.


Economy
See also: Trade in Maya civilization
Given that Mesoamerica was broken into numerous and diverse ecological niches, none of the societies that inhabited the area in were self-sufficient[cite this quote]. For this reason, from the last centuries of the Archaic period onward, regions compensated for the environmental inadequacies by specializing in the extraction of certain abundant natural resources and then trading them for necessary unavailable resources through established commercial trade networks.

The following is a list of some of the specialized resources traded from the various Mesoamerican sub-regions and environmental contexts:

Pacific lowlands - cotton and cochineal.
Maya lowlands and the Gulf Coast – cacao, vanilla, jaguar skins, birds and bird feathers (especially quetzal and macaw).
Central Mexico – Obsidian (Pachuca).
Guatemalan highlands – Obsidian (San Martin Jilotepeque, El Chayal, and Ixtepeque), pyrite, and jade from the Motagua River valley.
Coastal areas – salt, dry fish, shell, and dyes.

Currency
Sea shells from both coastal areas were used as currency during the Preclassic [citation needed]. Later, cacao was used as a standard currency used in diverse commercial transactions. At the time of conquest, a well made cotton tunic or shirt in the main markets would sell for about 30-50 cacao beans. [citation needed] Gold was not used as valuable object until the Postclassic, but even then, 1 load of Jade was worth 4 loads of Gold.[citation needed]


Common characteristics of Mesoamerican culture

Calendrical systems
Main article: Mesoamerican calendars
See also: Maya calendar and Aztec calendar
"Head Variant" or "Patron Gods" glyphs for Maya daysFor agriculturally-based people, historically the year has been divided into four seasons. These included the two solstices and the two equinoxes which could be thought of as the four "directional pillars" that support the year. These four times of the year were, and still are, considered important as they indicate seasonal changes which obviously had a direct impact on the lives of an agricultural society. In the case of the agricultural Maya, the seasonal markers were avidly watched and duly recorded. They prepared almanacs recording past and recent solar and lunar eclipses, the phases of the moon, the periods of Venus and Mars, the movements of various other planets, and conjunctions of celestial bodies. These almanacs also made future predictions concerning celestial events. These tables are highly accurate and indicate a significant level of knowledge among Mesoamerica astronomers. [4]PDF (46.8 KiB)

Among the many types of Maya calendars which were maintained, the most important included a 260-day cycle, a 365-day cycle which approximated the solar year, a cycle which recorded lunation periods of the Moon, and a cycle which tracked the synodic period of Venus. Philosophically, the Maya believed that knowing the past meant knowing the cyclical influences that create the present, and by knowing the influences of the present one can see the cyclical influences of the future. The 260 cycle was used as a tool to govern agriculture, observe religious holidays, and mark the position of the stars, but was mainly used for divinatory purposes, and to give names to newborns [cite this quote].

The names given to the days, months, and years in the Mesoamerican calendar came, for the most part, from animals, flowers, heavenly bodies and cultural concepts that held symbolic significance in Mesoamerican culture. This calendar was used throughout the history of Mesoamerican by nearly every culture. Even today, several Maya groups in Guatemala, including the K'iche', Q'eqchi' and Kaqchikel, and the Mixe people of Oaxaca, continue using modernized forms of the Mesoamerican calendar.

Page 9 of the Dresden Codex (from the 1880 Förstermann edition)
Writing systems
Main article: Mesoamerican writing systems
See also: Mesoamerican literature and Maya script
The emblem glyph of Tikal (Mutal)The Mesoamerican scripts deciphered to date are logosyllabic combining the use of logograms with a syllabary, and they are often called hieroglyphic scripts. Five or six different scripts have been documented in Mesoamerica but archaeological dating methods make it difficult to establish which was earliest and hence the forebear from which the others developed. The best documented and deciphered Mesoamerican writing system, and hence the most widely known, is the classic Maya script. Others include the Olmec, Zapotec, and Epi-Olmec systems. An extensive Mesoamerican literature has been conserved partly in indigenous scripts and partly in the postconquest transcriptions in the Latin script.

The other glyphic writing systems of Mesoamerica, and their usage, have been the subject of much debate. The ongoing discussion is whether or not non-Maya Mesoamerican writing systems can be considered examples of true written language or whether it is best understood as a pictographic convention used to express ideas, specifically religious ones, but not representing the phonetic reality of the language in which they might be read.

Mesoamerican writing was practiced on a number of different mediums, including large stone monuments such as stelae, carverd directly onto architecture, carved or painted over stucco (e.g., murals), and on pottery. The Maya codices were produced on amate paper produced from bark. No Mesoamerican society has had widespread literacy, and literacy and use of writing systems have been restricted to the classes of scribes and painters, and the nobility.


The ballgame
Main article: Mesoamerican ballgame
A small cermonial ballcourt at UaxactunThe ballgame is one of the more important cultural characteristics of Mesoamérica[cite this quote]. Although its name may lead some to believe it was a sport, it was actually more of a ritual, and the field where it was played was always located between ceremonial centers. This game had a cosmic essence, related to the movement of the sun and the universe[cite this quote]; this movement was imagined with the aid of the ball, which was made of hardened rubber that was removed from the sap of a fig tree; they used mainly this material because of its capacity to bounce. The oldest accurately dated Ball Court is that of Nakbe in Peten's Mirador Basin, at circa 500 BC.

The game had many rules, which changed from region to region. There was one version that could be played only with the hands, another one which used the hips and the elbows, and a version in which only a bat was used. For each type different playing fields were used: one with sidewalks so that the ball bounced to the height of the hip, and another with the ground dug up. In general all the fields had the form of a letter "I" and on the ends one could find heads of birds, as in Copán, or in the Post Classic a large ring which the ball had to pass through, as in Xochicalco. Occasionally the ceremonial ballgame may have concluded with a human sacrifice; it is not known if the one sacrificed was the captain of the winning team or of the losers; in most of the cases the players were prisoners of war[cite this quote].


Medicine and science

Medicine
Mesoamerican science and learning can be thought of as existing along two principal axes: those of the magical mind and the logical mind, which, despite being distinct, managed to coexist[cite this quote]. In the field of medicine there were two schools: one was the shamanist tradition, where shaman is understood as being a priestly healer who dealt with certain ailments, the most common of which was the loss of the soul. In order to cure his patients, the shaman turned to psychotropic drugs (peyote, tobacco, red beans mixed with mescaline) and magical manipulations (incantations, offerings).

The other school of medicine consisted of pragmatic knowledge[cite this quote]. In Mesoemerica there were healers who knew how to deal with fractures, treat and dress wounds, and were even able to perform certain obstetric procedures. They also knew how to treat using plants, and successfully used the active ingredient in aspirin, which at that time was already known, and extracted from willow bark. Medicine was practiced by priests who inherited their position and received extensive education. The Mayas sutured wounds with human hair, reduced fractures, and used casts. They were skillful dental surgeons and made prostheses from jade and turquoise and filled teeth with iron pyrite. Three clinical diseases, pinta, leishmaniasis, and yellow fever, and several psychiatric syndromes were described. Tuberculosis, although wide spread both in North and South America, has not been documented in Mesoamerica, with the exception of 3 skeletons near today's Mexico City, it can be due to a wide spread of Iron deficiency common among the Mesoamericans, according to a recent (2006) study by AK Wilbur, JE Buikstra, from Arizona State University. The ceramic figurines depicting dwarfs, and other diseased people are common, as well as maternal brest feeding and pregnancy. [cite this quote]

The Maya arithmetic system was, like most Mesoamerican systems, based on the number 20.
Arithmetic
See also: Maya numerals
Mesoamerican arithmetic treated numbers as having both literal and symbolic value, the result of the dualistic nature that characterized Mesoamerican ideology.[cite this quote]. As mentioned, the Mesoamerican numbering system was vigesimal (i.e., based on the number 20).

In representing numbers, a series of bars and dots were employed. Dots had a value of one, and bars had a value of five. This type of arithmetic was combined with a symbolic numerology: '2' was related to origins, as all origins can be thought of as doubling; '3' was related to household fire; '4' was linked to the four corners of the universe; '5' expressed instablity; '9' pertained to the underworld and the night; '13' was the number for light, '20' for abundance, and '400' for infinity. The concept of zero was also used, and its representation at the Late Preclassic occupation of Tres Zapotes is one of the earliest uses of zero in human history.

One of the great contributions to arithmetic, above all that of the Mexica, was the invention of the nepohualtzitzin, an abacus used to quickly carry out mathematical operations. The device, made of wood, string, and grains of maize, is also known as the "Aztec computer".


Mythology and worldview
See also: Aztec religion, Olmec mythology, Maya religion, and Maya mythology
The shared traits in Mesoamerican mythology are found characterized by their common basis as a shamanistic religion that although in many Mesoamerican groups developed into complex polytheistic religious systems, maintained a basic reliance on shamanistic principles.[cite this quote]

The great breadth of the Mesoamerican pantheon of deities is due to the incorporation of ideological and religious elements from the first primitive religion of Fire, Earth, Water and Nature. Astral divinities (the sun, stars, constellations, and Venus) were adopted, and represented in anthropomorphic, zoomorphic, and anthropozoomorphic sculptures, and in day-to-day objects.

The qualities of these gods and their attributes changed with the passage of time and with cultural influences from other Mesoamerican groups. The gods are at once three different cosmic entities, and at the same time just one. An important characteristic of Mesoamerican religion was the dualism among the divine entities. The gods represented the confrontation between opposite poles: the positive, exemplified by light, the masculine, force, war, the sun, etc.; and the negative, exemplified by darkness, the feminine, repose, peace, the moon, etc.[cite this quote]

The xoloitzcuintle is one of the naguales of the god Quetzalcóatl. In this form, it helps the dead cross the Chicnahuapan, a river that separates the world of the living from the dead.The typical Mesoamerican cosmology sees the world as separated into a day world governed by the sun and an underworld to which the dying sun goes at night to be reborn again the following morning, and united by a Ceiba tree (Yaxche' in Mayan). The geographic vision is also tied to these concepts and the cardinal points as well as certain geographical features in nature are linked to different parts of this cosmovision. For example caves are extremely important geographical features as are mountains and cenotes (natural wells), because they are seen as connecting the upper and the nether worlds. The influence of this cosmovision on most mesoamerican societies was so strong as to be crucial in cityplanning and architecture. [cite this quote] The Popol Vuh believed to be a Postclassic Quiché Mythology book, based in the Bible, but later proven to be the Maya Myth of the Creation, as seen in the Pre Classic murals in San Bartolo, describes very well how they see the world.


Sacrifice
Among the Mesoamerican cultures, sacrifice was a deeply symbolic and highly ritualized activity with strong religious and political significance. The various kinds of sacrifice were performed within a range of cultural contexts, from mundane everyday activities to those activities performed by elites and ruling lineages, the aim of which were the maintenance of sociocultural and political structure.

Sacrifice symbolized the renewal of the divine cosmic energy and the continuation of life. Its ability to do so is based on two intertwined concepts that are common to most Mesoamerican belief systems (in one form or another). The first is the notion that the gods had given life to mankind by sacrificing parts of their own bodies. The second is that blood, which often signified life among Mesoamerican belief systems, was partially made up of the blood of the gods (who sacrificed it and gave it to humans while creating life). Thus, in order to maintain the order of their universe, most Mesoamerican groups believed that blood and life had to be given back to the gods.

As mentioned, blood signified life, and was the liquid that satisfied the thirst of the gods (which varied depending on the culture) and revitalized them. Blood would not only revitalize the gods, but also the earth, plants (especially the maize harvest), and animals (e.g., the jaguar and the eagle, both highly symbolic animals). Blood was viewed as necessary for life as water, both in the terrestrial world and the world of the gods, and to replenish it to the gods was an obligation. [cite this quote]

Generally, sacrifice can be divided into two types: autosacrifice and human sacrifice. The different forms of sacrifice are reflected in the imagery used to evoke ideological structure and sociocultural organization in Mesoamerica. In the Maya area, for example, stele depict bloodletting rituals performed by ruling elites, eagles and jaguars devouring human hearts, jade circles or necklaces that represented hearts, and plants and flowers that symbolized both nature and the blood that provided life. [cite this quote] Imagery also showed pleas for rain or pleas for blood, with the same intention – to replenish the divine energy.


Autosacrifice
See also: Bloodletting rituals in Maya culture
Autosacrifice, also called bloodletting, is the ritualized practice of drawing blood from oneself. It is commonly seen or represented through iconography as performed by ruling elites in highly ritualized ceremonies, but it is easily practiced among mundane sociocultural contexts (i.e., non-elites could perform autosacrifice). The act was typically performed with obsidian prismatic blades or stingray spines, and blood was drawn from piercing or cutting the tongue, earlobes, and/or genitals (among other locations). Another form of autosacrifice was conducted by pulling a rope with attached thorns through the tongue or earlobes. The blood produced was then collected on paper held in a bowl.

Autosacrifice was not limited to male rulers, as their female counterparts often performed these ritualized activities. They are typically shown in performing the rope and thorns technique. A recently discovered queen's tomb in the Classic Maya site of Waka (also known as El Perú) had a ceremonial stingray spine placed in her genital area, suggesting that women also performed bloodletting in their genitalia. [citation needed]


Human Sacrifice
See also: Human sacrifice in Aztec culture
What importance did the sacrifice have in the social and religious aspects of Mesoamerican Culture? First, it showed death transformed into the divine. [cite this quote] Death is the consequence of a human sacrifice, but it is not the end; it is but the continuation of the cosmic cycle. Death creates life – divine energy is liberated through death and returns to the gods, who are then able to create more life. Secondly, it justifies war, since the most valuable sacrifices are obtained through conflict. The death of the warrior is the greatest sacrifice, and gives the gods the energy to go about their daily activities, such as the bringing of rain. Warfare and the capturing of prisoners became a method of social advancement, and a religious cause. Finally, it justifies the control of power by the two ruling classes, the priests and the warriors. The priests control the religious ideology, and the warriors supply the sacrifice.


Astronomy
Mesoamerican astronomy included a broad understanding of the cycles of planets and other celestial bodies. Special importance was given to the sun, moon, and Venus as the morning and evening star.

Observatories were built at a number of sites, including the round observatory at Ceibal and the “Observatorio” at Xochicalco. Often, the architectural organization of Mesoamerican sites was based on precise calculations derived from astronomical observations. Well-known examples of these include the El Castillo pyramid at Chichen Itza and the Observatorio at Xochicalco. A unique and common architectural complex found among many Mesoamerican sites are E-Groups, which are aligned so as to serve as astronomical observatories. The name of this complex is based on Uaxactun’s “Group E,” the first known observatory in the Maya area. Perhaps the earliest observatory documented in Mesoamerica is that of the Monte Alto culture. This complex consisted of 3 plain stelae and a temple oriented with respect to the Pleiades.


The symbolism of space and time
The Avenue of the Dead in Teotihuacan, an example of a Mesoamerican settlement planned according to concepts of directionality.It has been argued that among Mesoamerican societies the concepts of space and time are associated with the four cardinal compass points and linked together by the calendar (Duverger 1999). Dates or events were always tied to a compass direction, and the calendar specified the symbolic geographical characteristic peculiar to that period. Resulting from the significance held by the cardinal directions, many Mesoamerican architectural features, if not entire settlements, were planned and oriented with respect to directionality.

In Maya mythology, each cardinal point was assigned a specific color and a specific jaguar deity (Bacab). They are as follows:

Hobnil - Bacab of the East, associated with the color red and the Kan years.
Can Tzicnal - Bacab of the North, assigned the color white and the Muluc years,
Zac Cimi - Bacab of the West, associated with the color black and the Ix years.
Hozanek - Bacab of the South, associated with the color yellow and the Cauac years.
Later cultures such as the Kaqchikel and Quiché maintain the association of cardinal directions with each color, but utilized different names.

Among the Aztec, the name of each day was associated with a cardinal point (thus conferring symbolic significance), and each cardinal direction was associated with a group of symbols. Below are the symbols and concepts associated with each direction:

East – crocodile, the serpent, water, cane, and movement. The East was lnked to the world priests and associated with vegetative fertility, or, in other words, tropical exuberance.
North – wind, death, the dog, the jaguar, and flint (or chert). The north contrasts the east in that it is conceptualized as dry, cold, and oppressive. It is considered to be the nocturnal part of the universe, and includes the dwellings of the dead. The dog (xoloitzcuintle) has a very specific meaning, as it is the one who accompanies the deceased during the trip to the lands of the dead and helps them cross the river of death that leads into nothingness.
West - the house, the deer, the monkey, the eagle, and rain. The west was associated with the cycles of vegetation, specifically the temperate high plains that experience light rains, and the change of seasons. * South – rabbit, the lizard, dried herbs, the buzzard, and flowers. It is related on the one hand to the luminous Sun and the noon heat, and on the other with rain filled with alcoholic drink. The rabbit, the principal symbol of the west, was associated with farmers and with pulque.
South – rabbit, the lizard, dried herbs, the buzzard, and flowers. It is related on the one hand to the luminous Sun and the noon heat, and on the other with rain filled with alcoholic drink. The rabbit, the principal symbol of the west, was associated with farmers and with pulque.

Political and religious art
See also: Maya art
Art with ideological and political meaning: depiction of an Aztec tzompantli (skull-rack) from the Ramirez Codex.Mesoamerican artistic expression was conditioned by ideology and generally related to focusing on themes of religion and/or sociopolitical power. This is largely based on the fact that most works that survived the Spanish conquest were public monuments. These monuments were typically erected by rulers who sought to visually legitimize their sociocultural and political position; by doing so, they intertwined their lineage, personal attributes and achievements, and legacy with religious concepts. As such, these monuments were specifically designed for public display and took many forms, including stele, sculpture, architectural reliefs, and other types of architectural elements (e.g., roofcombs). Other themes expressed include tracking time, glorifying the city, and veneration of the gods – all of which were tied into explicitly aggrandizing the abilities and the reign of the ruler who commissioned the artwork.

Another type of pre-Hispanic art that was produced for its inner, rather than outward, meaning. It is differentiated from the first type in that its value is related not so much in what is visually depicts, but rather in what it represents. Earthenware (ceramic vessels) are an example of this type of artistic expression, and were symbolic due to the origin of their source material; they were often in burial rituals and as the invisible faces of statues.[citation needed]


See also
Middle America (Americas)
...


the site would most ike fit one of these groups and it could also fall between these groups . but as i see it we need to work on defineing what group or groups it fits most . to me the site looks to have been there from before 5000bc maybe as old as 10,000,bc

i dont think we can judge this site by the other sites in the area as for say snaketown and wupatki..or even casa ....they are all around it but the design of there ball courts are not as old as this site .. this site has flat vertical walls and the court is much bigger then snaketown and not oval shaped like Hohokam but yet dose have open ends ..

its like all of those sites were fassioned from this site .......and that matches the chicomoztoc legend that the other sites came from chicomoztoc .it would make logical sence they would start their own games or maybe retrun each year for the play offs ...

 

[the blindbowman]

if we stay in these guide lines ,you can rule out the Anasazi
the Oasisamerica Hohokam came after this site ,both Snaketown and Casa Grande show it in there design ..

yet we know it fits

Based on maize remnants found in Bat Cave, Arizona, it appears that agriculture practices date back to at least 3500 B.C. Given that the oldest traces of maize in North America date back to the year 5000 B.C., it would seem that the hypothesis of importation of agriculture from the south is correct. It is less certain who brought the agricultural technology and what role they played in the development of the high cultures of Oasisamerica.

A pebble of turquoise, one of the principal trade goods of the Oasisamericans

i know ray dillman's site dirrectly relates to this site with pebble of turquoise....

if we use that as our guide line this site has to be 3500BC -5000 bc ,

i look at Nakbe to jdge this , the site #4 has people that live in caves ,so it would be older then Nakbe

this tells me this site was so isolated it dosent fit the known groups as we would think it should ...

so most likely IMHO we are looking at a site from before Olmec to around the Archaic or Paleo-Indian...

this makes me question the Coxcatlan Phase (7000-5400 BP), so parts of this site look older then Coxcatlan Phase (7000-5400 BP yet some looks newer , are we seeing a site that grew or our we seeing a site with many layers of culture on top of each other over a long span of time ...?