tayopa, legend or reality ...?

[the blindbowman]

bb,

I believe you are mistaken. The bottom picture is of an inscription by Ramon Garcia Jurado. It reads:

"On the 25th. of the month of June, of this year of 1709, passed by here on the way to Zuni, Ramon Garcia Jurado."

Diego de Vargas' inscription reads:

"Here was the General Don Diego de Vargas, who conquered for our Holy Faith, and for the Royal Crown, all of New Mexico at his own expense, year of 1692."

The dates are easy enough to read.

Joe Ribaudo

i saw i at web site and i was not real very interested in what they are at this piont , i may have misread the write ups for th diffrent picture .. i have to much work to do i wont be replying for a few days much i just dont have the time too ..it dose matter really because they are modern then what i am looking for ...

i will delite that post sorry oro if i misspoke , i will try to stay off the web for a few days maybe a week ... i just dont hav time for this right now...

 

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[Oroblanco]

Cactusjumper wrote:

bb,

I believe you are mistaken. The bottom picture is of an inscription by Ramon Garcia Jurado. It reads:

"On the 25th. of the month of June, of this year of 1709, passed by here on the way to Zuni, Ramon

Slight misunderstanding here Joe - it was ME who posted those photos, which are from El Morro Natl Monument, not from the Superstitions. I was posting examples of the archaic STYLE of Spanish script, not trying to post examples of inscriptions that have direct verbal bearing on the subject - only the old style of writing which is rather important when examining any suspect inscription for comparison purposes. I was responding to Blindbowman's request:

do have copy of that type of fancy archaic Spanish script.

This particular factor is one of my key reasons for holding those Peralta Stone Maps in such high suspicion, for when the writing style is wrong, it is a big red flag. At least it is for me, some folks don't appear to put any weight on the writing style. Sorry for the mixup, I should have labeled it clearly that it is just an example of the writing style.
Oroblanco

 

[Oroblanco]

PS - forgot to add...

Blindbowman wrote:

(Oroblanco wrote earlier)..."Most treasure maps are so close to worthless for actually FINDING treasures that I pay little attention to them,"

it not the maps its the treasure hunters that worthless the maps are fine ..lol just jokeing ... we all know ever treasure maps is the way to a real treasure ...lol

Hmm...I do realize you are kidding of course, and do get your point. Let me explain why I say that in general, the great majority of "Treasure Maps" are as valuable as any wall-art drawing and nothing more. First point, with all the many so-called "Treasure Maps" we have in public possession, how many of them have successfully led someone to find real, gold/silver/diamonds treasure? As far as I know, the sum total is precisly zero. (Joe I am not counting the stone maps in this, for the moment, and I do include Dobie's map as it has an important defect.) So that rather important factor, the success rate viz "Treasure Maps" is extremely low.

The second point, which can be classed in a term used by antiques collectors and crime experts, is "Provenance". In the great majority of cases, we have virtually NO history to trace these so-called "Treasure Maps" to their origins. Some of them could well have been drawn up by a Sixth-grader with an artistic bent. Even with Dobie's map, and I do respect Mr Dobie and very much enjoy his works, we have little to prove where the map originated. Check out the "Treasure Map" collection online available in several web sites (I believe the total is now over eighty) and if you are a beginner you might be impressed at first. However the provenance of most of these maps is so questionable that their veracity is very much open to question. (Here is one site with a good collection, from the Apache Junction Public Library, my personal favorite library in the whole USA: http://www.ajpl.org/aj/museum/treasm.htm

The next point has to do with the provenance - for even if we can believe the "Treasure Map" is a genuine document, then we have to ask just why the map is available to be seen at all? Doesn't it make sense that if it were a genuine map, the creators of the map would make an effort and take steps to ensure that the map would pass into the hands of people they wished to find the treasure? I think it is safe to assume this as it is logical - it is NOT logical to think of such a genuine map to treasure being sent to a public library or posted on the Internet for anyone and everyone to go hunt for it. So the odds are that if the map is genuine, there is a good REASON why it is no longer hidden from the public, kept in private hands - that most logical reason is that whatever treasure there was to be found through the use of that map - have long since been found and recovered. I will grant that it is POSSIBLE that a genuine treasure map might well have ended up 'in the public eye' for reasons unknown, but in such a case we have to suspect there are reasons for this illogical turn of events, such as that the inheritors of the map were unable to re-locate the treasure, that the inheritors of the map died suddenly, etc. In such cases the most likely reason for inheritors of the map to fail are that the map has a major flaw, or as Blindbowman hinted at, a "key" code that is misinterpreted or misunderstood, etc.

So I stand by my earlier statement that the great majority of so-called "Treasure Maps" are virtually worthless as a tool to help locate any kind of lost treasure. For someone to think otherwise is certainly a matter of personal opinion, but in such a case I would suspect that person to be quite inexperienced in hunting for lost treasures, or to have a very limited sphere in the subject, focused on one or two particular lost treasures which we know to have a map or maps with genuine provenance. I would not include in this any maps which are held in private hands, (and yes I own a few myself which have never been published anywhere) but this type of map is not within the "public domain" so fall outside of what I said.

Here is one example of a "Treasure Map", for any neophytes reading our discussion:

"Treasure Maps" are GREAT fun and a good excuse to be exploring the tall tules, BUT....."Caveat Emptor" and that old saying "You get what you pay for" are oh-so-true, so these "Maps" are very much "worth what you paid" for them!

I am sorry if I have just poked a pin in the hopes of some treasure-hunter's balloon, I do not like to discourage anyone from hunting treasure, but am trying to tell you the truth about the business; you will waste a LOT of your time, effort and expense in chasing down these so-called "Treasure Maps" when you could be following up far more promising leads, and yes there are very real lost treasures which have never been found and recovered. I would rather see you succeed than waste your effort on false leads, which could sour a new treasure hunter to the whole idea of hunting lost treasures.

Good luck and good hunting, I hope you all find the treasures that you seek - even if through the use of one of these so-called "Treasure Maps" that I have such a dim view of.
your friend,
Oroblanco

 

[cactusjumper]

Roy,

I did not misunderstand your post at all.

bb came back and claimed the bottom picture was of an inscription by Diego de Vargas. He has since, in his usuall fashion, deleted that entire post. The bottom picture is of an inscription by Ramon Garcia Jurado.

Your reply to bb,s request was perfectly clear to just about everyone, I imagine.

IMHO, The Stone Maps were not created in the time period when this "STYLE of Spanish script" was being used. Do you know of any examples where that block style of print was used in New Spain?

Take care,

Joe

 

[the blindbowman]

i under stood Oro post to be a reply of writeings of Juan de Oñate ,at lest that is what i ask about in the frist place . his reply was about spanish writeing .. i did not know it was not about Juan de Oñate him self thats started with me seeing a write up at a web sight that said the lower picture was not from Juan de Oñate, i must have made a misteak because i just did not have time to spean on this no more then i do now ... so i delited the reply to stop from confusing others . if you can not handle the truth then #@!$%#@! you CJ ...


i just read what i wrote above and i will not be pushed to reply in this nature, i would rather stop reply all togather . in less then a week i have to prsent my research at a hearing ...it is not in a presentional format, so i got a lot of work to do ,,,

i wish all the best ...

 

[cactusjumper]

bb,

Sorry you took that correction so hard. Truth is, no amount of corrections would make your posts less confusing. What makes it all the more confusing is your constant wholesale edits and deletions. Not saying second thoughts might not be the best way for you to get your ideas across, but it does make it harder to follow your thought pattern.

This is what you asked Roy for:

"do have copy of that type of fancy archaic Spanish script...i have a reason for ask .."

I believe he provided exactly what you asked for.

It's also unfortunate that your work load is going to get in the way of your posting here. While we have heard that before, it just never seems to work out that way.

Good luck with the presentation.

Joe Ribaudo

 

[the blindbowman]

we were haveing a talk about Juan de Oñate, i did not realize he had posted the picture for spanish writeing ,,i just dont have my mind on this topic right now .. and it real dosent matter anyway .. i have a chance to present my research to one the best in the world in his feild and i got to work on that so .. take care3 may i over reacted ,, it happends .. sorry good luck take care

 

[Oroblanco]

Greetings friends,

Joe my apologies, I missed the deleted post and saw only your reply, and thought there was a mis-understanding of what and why I posted those images. Blindbowman I do wish you would leave your posts up for a little longer, even if it is something that was a mistake, heck I make mistakes all the time and it is easier for the readers if the mistake is left and a correction added in a future post. You can always use the 'strikeout' feature like this example "I have found the treasure vault of Tayopa" whoops no I haven't! That is pretty easy for a reader to understand.

It seems there are some ruffed feathers here so I want to symbolically offer the calumet (peace pipe)

Let us remain friends, after all we still have more common interests than differences.

Joe I really don't know of any legitimate examples of that strange style of block script we see on the Peralta Stones. As far as I know, it is unique in style, which is usually not a good thing. The most letters we see are (I think) on the "Witch" stone:

The closest I know of are Anglo, here is a linkee (the image is very large)
http://www.nps.gov/imr/pgallerycontent/p/l/20070209143327.JPG
Do you know of any genuine examples of that block script Joe? Or anyone reading this, if you know of a genuine Spanish or Mexican example of the block script we see on the Peralta stones please post it here? Thani you in advance.

I hope we can bury the hatchet (and not in someone's head) even if we can not agree on some things.
Oroblanco

PS how about this example?

The 'tittles' on major letters are quite different from the letters we see on the Peralta stones which have no 'tittles' but at least it is a Spanish inscription in block script. (Quite an interesting plaque, dedicated to Juan de la Cosa en Santoña - a co-discoverer of America, owner of the Santa Maria and sailed with Columbus on the first three voyages, but I don't know when this was created.)

 

[the blindbowman]

It is now thought by many that the Templars had uncovered evidence that Jesus Christ, contrary to church dogma, had not been born of a virgin, had not died on the cross, had not risen from the dead, and had not ascended bodily into heaven, but in fact had sired children with a wife, the much-maligned Mary Magdalen, thereby establishing a "holy bloodline" that would beget and begat its way over the centuries through some of the highest and mightiest families of Europe, and is begatting still.

But Phillip's pre-dawn raid was not a complete success. It's thought that a fair number of Templars may have tumbled to the plot and sailed away, with their treasure and their truth, to Bonnie Scotland, scoring great points with King Robert the Bruce by helping win the day against the English at the Battle of Bannockburn in 1314, the same year that Templar Grand Master Jacques de Molay was slow-roasted to death on an island in the River Seine.

And so, outlawed throughout the rest of Europe, the Templars had found a sanctuary of sorts in Fair Caledonia, and are thought to have been absorbed, and thereby concealed for safety's sake into a similar chivalric brotherhood–the Knights Hospitaller–an order that still remained in the good graces of Rome.

No Templar document has ever been found which testifies to a belief in that "holy bloodline." And who can blame them, given their history, for not putting pen to parchment?

They did, however, inscribe that belief in code, on a fairly large stone high atop a decrepit, roofless church in the tiny Midlothian village of Temple–ancient headquarters of the Knights Templar in Scotland–and it is there, on Aug. 5, 1999, that I showed up.


+ Click here to enlarge +


I was visiting a good friend of mine in the area, who pointed the stone out to me and told me the inscription had never been deciphered. That was all I needed. I shot the photographs that accompany this article and, after returning to the US, put my thinking cap on.

The inscription on the East side of the stone consists of two lines: VÆSAC and MIHM. The second line has been "justified" to make it the same width as the first. On the North side the letters RI have been added, but with less care, in a different hand, and probably at a later date.

Bearing in mind that there were no letters U and J in classical Latin (V and I were used instead), my translation is as follows:

VÆSAC is an anagram of the Latin word CAVSÆ, or "Cause." What that cause was is revealed in MIHM, which is an anagram of an acronym, and which translates as the Heirs of Mary Magdalen and Jesus.

If my translation of the inscription proves to be correct, as I believe it eventually will, the Templars' cause, their raison d'etre, as implied by several books written within the last 20 years, was to protect the heirs of Jesus and Mary Magdalen.

The letters RI were a bit more problematic. Although it took me a while, their proximity to VÆSAC eventually led me to believe that they were meant to be introduced into the general mix, creating the letter string VÆSACRIMIHM. This string revealed a second code, embedded in the first, which related to yet another Templar legend–that Henry Sinclair of Orkney, grandfather of the man who built Rosslyn Chapel, made a voyage of discovery to North America in 1396, 96 years before Christopher Columbus is historically credited with that feat.

As I pondered the inscription the word AMERICA suddenly jumped out at me, leaving the letters VSIHM. Just like the second line of the first code, these letters proved also to be an anagram of an acronym. That acronym stands for Henry Sinclair Made 1st (or "one") Voyage, or "I, Henry Sinclair, Made Voyage". Amazingly, the letters MIV are perhaps yet a third embedded code–acceptable crypto-shorthand for 14th Century. Whoever added the RI was leaving little to chance!

[Note: There is actually yet a fourth code embedded in the inscription which, due to space considerations, I cut from my original article. I include it here. VÆSAC plus RI deciphers as SACRE VIA, or "Sacred Way." It's my opinion that the inscribed stone at Temple lay along a path of initiation for those who, over time, were initiated into the "higher mysteries" of the Templars. When that path fell into disuse, or if indeed it ever did, is open for debate.]

My translation of VÆSAC MIHM has been called "very ingenious" and "very persuasive" by an eminent Scottish archaeologist. I have since written three applications to Historic Scotland, the government department that protects the property, for permission to conduct an inexpensive and minimally invasive on-site investigation, and have been turned down. HS has accused me of playing a "pleasurable game of anagrams" which, it says, is "no substitute for methodical research," and that "without clear evidence" of the existence in Scotland of a "cult of Mary Magdalen as the bride of Christ," my reasoning, "while interesting, cannot be regarded as having any basis in fact." My argument that perhaps the inscription may be that clear evidence has so far fallen on deaf ears.

Meanwhile, HS plans to sink a bundle into making Urquhart Castle a more tourist-friendly and all-inclusive lookout perch for the Loch Ness Monster. There's enough "clear evidence" for Nessie, I guess!

So what should all this mean to us, and why should it matter?

Briefly put: If the Templar legends of a holy bloodline and Henry Sinclair's voyage of discovery eventually prove to be true, then world history as it has been presented to us must be radically altered. If these legends prove not to be true, yet have been believed to be true down through the ages by a privileged and influential few, then perhaps the course of history has already been altered, in ways we can only guess at. Either way, the inscription on the Temple stone deserves a closer look.

I'll be returning to Scotland later this year, and will spend a few hours in Temple. Once again I will look up at the inscription, and wonder. But I mustn't touch. Touching has been strictly forbidden

 

[Oroblanco]

Jeff Nisbet has an interesting theory there, pretty much the premise of the fictional book/movie "The Da Vinci Code" which was a good movie IMHO. Do you find the script of that Scottish inscription to be similar to that on 'ye Peralta Stones' amigo? Thank you in advance,
Oroblanco

 

[the blindbowman]

Jeff Nisbet has an interesting theory there, pretty much the premise of the fictional book/movie "The Da Vinci Code" which was a good movie IMHO. Do you find the script of that Scottish inscription to be similar to that on 'ye Peralta Stones' amigo? Thank you in advance,
Oroblanco

i havent been able to dismiss it yet if thats what your asking ... a few answer would have to become clear before i would say the data has value as of yet .., the templar were the only ones i saw that wore the cross on the arm of their robes and even if it is far off track , they did have the opportunity no matter how far it maybe off the know evidence trail . we would have to still see it as a possablity ..., it still come back to "they had the opportunity ".


i think the real question is one you were asking .. and it goes back to the stone tablets ...and i cant rule out the fact there are no "W" in the stone tablet words an i still have some questions about the code and how much it can translate beyond what we already know ...

one of the questions i have is if this is ( tayopa 1 ) we know the stone tablets and the tayopa list were at the same location at santa ana church , but was the Gonzalo & Ruth map there as well

and if so if so here is my question , if tayopa 1 is no more then say 1571 . then how could the stones relate to the templar but on the other hand the site 4 could pre date tayopa bu hunders of years as a indain or clovis site , this is one of the reason i have ask one of the best to help me defind what this site 4 is .....and dose the peralt or peralto have anything to do with this map , and if so dose this relate them to the Sombrero mine ...?

 

[the blindbowman]

another question i have is how do stop eating these girlscout cookies after you start ...lol


..let say i was right and , here out of no where is Tayopa 1 , dated lets say the short life span hyplothesis , no more then 1599 to 1605 thats only 6 at best .. and most likely the mine was not worked the full time span , this would match the ore mass cubic from the tayopa and from the Sombrero mine and the DLM..

now agree this is a wild idea and the hyplothesis is going to take some real evidence to prove if it is true ... but when we think about the sombrero mine being worked for 3 years then lost for 200 years and then the dutchman finding it ,or stealing it for a few years and not working it very much at all .. we ee the mine could have gone from the early days of tayopa 1 to the dutchman and had yet to be worked in any full out mineing as we know it tody .. then the question goes back to when was Tayopa 1 founded ...and was it a site before tayopa 1...?

 

[the blindbowman]

i am going to call this site tayopa 1 at times for the debate of its relationship to the tayopa legend , i dont question what RDT has found , he is a very smart and well verst preson IMHO and he must have found something or he would not be there IMHO ...

i dont know how many tayopa there are we may never know . but for the sake of debate , site 4 is tayopa 1,,,


if i am right site 4 was chicomoztoc before it was tayopa 1 ,, i have no questions if it was a secerd place or not . the next question is it one of chicomoztoc and the Chichiman or is it one of the Acoma , or is it as the seven caves stated a home of 7 tribes and is older then the oldest of those 7 tribes . or did these tribes move to this site ...?

IMHO we just dont have enough evidence yet to defind the sites past . imho this is a very old site . and anything this old take time and hard work to uncover the details of its histroy...

i think this speacialist well come in and defind the site in a few days ...i am going on 4 years ...

 

[Gossamer]

I knew this place had that feeling of 'synchronicity'

check it out...

http://www.bloodline-themovie.com/
don't skip the intro.
Janiece

 

[cactusjumper]

Roy,

Someone who often printed in the block style, was Ted De Grazia. His horse could be the model for the Stone Maps. The model for the priest could be Chuck Aylor. The likeness is striking.

Take care,

Joe


[attachment deleted by admin]

 

[the blindbowman]

to know its real dose not define who well show up next ....!

 

[the blindbowman]

Roy,

Someone who often printed in the block style, was Ted De Grazia. His horse could be the model for the Stone Maps. The model for the priest could be Chuck Aylor. The likeness is striking.

Take care,

Joe

i would almost agree with you if feddy crystall had not seen the same stone tablets at the santa ana church ... , how could he and ray dillman end up at the same site if freddy crystal had not put the stone tablets where they were found ,....? how could he have known the site in utah with out the stone tablets to make his maps from .. the fact is he could not . the odds would be like one billion to 1 that he could end up with in the same state let alone the same canyon... ...

you also should take into acount the condition of the stone tablets when they were found , they ha been placed there by freddy crystall in 1912 and were found in 1949 , they really had not been there that long ..when they were found ...and think of this flipper's found the list the same year 1912 , is freddy's crystall real name some one who worked for or with flipper when the list and stones were found ...i find this just to much to side step it ... the odds Ray dillman would end up in Utah useing the stone tablets and freddy useing a map he made from stealing the location from a small church in a small vallage in sonora , is just to great of odd to dismiss..IMHO it just cant be done any other logical way ...freddy had to have stold the stone tablets them selfs from the church and then made his maps from them and they were to heavy to take on his bike all the way to Utah .. what i real found interesting is i did the same damn thing when i frist try to plot the maps ... i ended up in Utah at the same canyon , but then i back tracked because i had not herd of ray dillman or freddy crystall at the time ...

 

[Oroblanco]

HOLA mi amigos,

Blindbowman wrote:

i dont know how many tayopa there are we may never know .

Well for years I believed there were only ONE, but then the stories simply will NOT fit with any one site. So I was shocked to learn from our mutual amigo Real de Tayopa that there were at least THREE different places that were known as Tayopa over the centuries! It is quite possible that a fourth exists, which is one reason why I have not dismissed the whole idea of one being in the Superstitions.

Blindbowman also wrote:

another question i have is how do stop eating these girlscout cookies after you start ...lol

Boy howdy isn't that the truth! My one main gripe with the Girl Scouts is that they only sell their cookies ONCE per year! Grr! The last of ours has disappeared a few days ago, seems to coincide with my belt and pants apparently shrinking a couple of inches. Go figure...?

Gossamer wrote:

I knew this place had that feeling of 'synchronicity'

check it out...

http://www.bloodline-themovie.com/

That odd sychronicity here does seem to coincide with 'current events' along with what is showing on a couple of particular TV channels...apparently we seem to have similar tastes in our entertainment as well as a common interest in hunting for treasures! There have been several times when something we were discussing coincidentally had a TV program not long after (or before ) so one might wonder where we are getting our information and inspiration? (heh heh) At least we are not talking about elections! That seems to take up 90% of the air-time for the various news programs, sad to say. Thank you for the linkee too!

Cactusjumper wrote:

Roy,

Someone who often printed in the block style, was Ted De Grazia

Do you know of any examples that could be posted here Joe? I would appreciate it. As Mr De Grazia is a rather well-known artist, this resemblance could hint at what kind of treasure(s) those maps could lead to...

Oroblanco

 

[cactusjumper]

Roy,

"Do you know of any examples that could be posted here Joe? I would appreciate it. As Mr De Grazia is a rather well-known artist, this resemblance could hint at what kind of treasure(s) those maps could lead to..."

You are correct sir. I believe I posted a picture of Ted's printing. "LA FRANCE'S" was printed by Ted. His signature is at the bottom of the page. That in itself is another interesting aspect of the story.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Oroblanco]

I see it now - when I read your post only the first photo showed. Hmm...