tayopa, legend or reality ...?

[the blindbowman]

Really! And all this time I just thought you needed a mommy.

Joe Ribaudo

You forgot the tasteful.... FO.... farewell that was later edited out.

ya it stands for,, free opioion

 

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[Oroblanco]

Greetings friends,

Real de Tayopa wrote:

I would even drink Djucy';s coffee, but I am wary of ORO"S egg shell, crunchy bug stuff.

What?!! Without even taking a bite, er, I mean sip? Now my feelings are hurt. (sniff) However, if you are 'wary' of a few legs, heads and wings in your cup of dark stuff, I do know how to make Mrs Oro's infamous Sock Coffee...no legs, heads, eggshells etc but only a sissy would be afraid to chew a few extra legs in his coffee right? Think of it as a "health-drink" - like those ground up carrots, spinach, celery etc you would have to pay premium prices for! After all, the scientists do say that many insects are quite high in protein!

This reminds me of a particular type of bug that might get into your coffee, and if it does, don't bother tasting it just dump it - stinkbugs! That nasty stink they give off when you crush one seems to percolate through the coffee in a matter of minutes and the result is, kind of yuck.

Ed - you are making that trip sound better and better. Not that I would wish to get away from all of this - with the gorgeous white crap that gets deep and the nice below-zero temperatures with a driving wind, gee I don't know! Actually I had not thought about Xmas, that particular holiday might be a little problem - this last Xmas I had to stay at the ranch as my boss and his wife went to be with relatives for a couple of weeks, and they might want to do it again this year. My boss swore up and down that he would NOT do it, not after the BS they had to go through in the airports (security) but by then he might change his mind.

(Ed T wrote:

It may be possible you might want to spend some time in Mazatlan..

)
~~~~~~~~~~~~
to which Real de Tayopa wrote:

Yer kidding no? why would a tired, frozen, gambasino, cowboy / writer from Dakota want to lounge in the warm sand ogling females at Mazatlan when he could be snow bound in a lonely cabin writing about TAYOPA?

Yer weird ED ~

Dang amigo I have to admit that would be a tough one! Thanks for the compliments, I am not a real cowboy, I don't even own a horse at the moment, just working as one. (That should tell you how difficult it is getting for the local ranchers to get real cowboys, to be hiring a PA city boy! ) A real cowboy would be able to rope steers, calves etc heck I have trouble with a stationary fencepost! Just my opinion here but I do think that the person BEST experienced & qualified to write the story of Tayopa is YOU amigo! I am sure that many others will agree with me on this!

Gossamer wrote:

And what would you think if you came across this arrow on a trail.

My first impression is an English 'Broad Arrow' but it looks pretty fresh in the photo. How old would you guess this mark to be? Thank you for the link to the article too - pretty interesting stuff!

Cactusjumper have you heard of the theory about Anasazi using mica flakes as signalling mirrors? Supposedly they were going to test out the theory, never heard how it turned out though.

Real de Tayopa, one question before I close this post - from what you have researched, when do you estimate the earliest references to Tayopa to be? Thank you in advance...
Oroblanco

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

HIO HO GAL: You posted --->what would you think if you came across this arrow on a trail.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Graffiti. at least it isn't very old.

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[cactusjumper]

Roy,

James Riddle did the test over in the Prescott area. Believe they could see the reflection at around four miles, and the mica mirror outdid a quality hand mirror.

I guess gossamer did not like my opinion.

I don't think the Maya cared about the reflecting properties of the slabs of mica, which Hancock said were around 90 by 90 feet. Consider the difficulty of bringing those slabs up 2000 miles from South America.
Projects like that (superhuman effort) are almost always tied to religion....in some form.

The magical properties may have had something to do with static electricity.

Take care,

Joe

 

[cactusjumper]

bb,

"i looked in the shaft and judge it frist hand by what i saw , thats why i said the discription waltz gave was very close..i would say within a 1/2ft in any dirrection ..."

Does your current petulance mean we won't be seeing photographs anytime soon?

Thanks in advance,

Joe Ribaudo

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

HIO ORO el sock straining bug, and shell eliminator coffee. maker. I H O P E that you aren't going to tell me that it has to be worn for a week at least to bring out the full favor ? Yuch.

You posted -->

I wonder how close Dobie got, and if he realized it?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I am posting a side by side picture of Dobie's map and a superimposed line drawing of the Tayopa complex itself.
*************************************************************************************
You also posted -->

Real de Tayopa, one question before I close this post - from what you have researched, when do you estimate the earliest references to Tayopa to be?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Frankly, I do not know, perhaps Flippers data might fill that niche. Most do not have a specific date.

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[Gossamer]

Thank you Oro... Cubfan, ya' did have me going... but I'm a quick study.
The arrow... there were several, but I can't find the others... but I was walking up a little 'trail' taking pic's of petroglyphs, some amazing ones too. I looking down and found the arrows... the lead to under a rock, I couldn't start digging, it was private property.
I'm trying to get to go back and photograph other parts of rock pics...
Oro, I'm trying to get caught up reading about the Pearl ship... yikes. But they talked about finding pearls. I knew I had heard about something along those lines.
Janiece

"For instance, when Spiro Mound in Oklahoma was excavated in the
1930's, a tall man in full armour was discovered along with a pot of
thousands of pearls and other artefacts, the largest such treasure
so far documented. The whereabouts of the man in armour is unknown
and it is quite likely that it eventually was taken to the
Smithsonian Institution"

 

[lilorphanannie]

i have just ,in the last few weeks come to know this forum as a guest , and i must say theres a lot of interesting dialogue going on , enough so ,that its provoked me into signing on , believing that i perhaps could offer some positive direction to some points that seem to have been convienently evaded or misconstrued. i have chosen to present what little i know under the heading of the tayopa legend, because my area of experience is mexican mining history. it is my intent to respond to some of the comments ive read throughout this forum ,without specifics, with facts i know to be true. it is not my intention to offend anyone nor argue .after all ,the idea is to find treasure, not to waste years and money talking about it. first, treasure law in mexico --- mexican law states ,( i am paraphrasing ) in the event of a treasure, in all cases, the treasure belongs to the landowner, example, a grandfather buried 20 centenarios during the revolution and his great grandson finds them while replastering the kitchen wall , that treasure belongs to whoevers name is on the deed to the property. in the case of a larger treasure, one that the state deems of historical interest ,the treasure belongs to the state (this is 100% true with pre columbian finds ) . it is the general procedure, when a foreigner wants to pursue a treasure excavation ,he is to solicit permission from the office of the governor of that state, whereas an agreement is reached as how to divide the spoils. in most cases a detachment of troops will be sent with you ,and in fact ,do most of the work, with regards to mining concessions ,a mining claim is given in two phases ,first a 5 year exploration title and then a 50 exploitation title ,where the taxes go up signifigantly. the idea ,of course is to work the property ,not to speculate on it . in no way, does the claimholder own the property ,it still belongs to the landowner , normally there is an agreement written up between the two as to access ,reclamation ,royalties etc. as a claimholder ,a mining title gives you the right to extract ore, you are leasing the property and the right to mine it. as far as tayopa is conscerned,from the mexican point of view ,it is not lost ,and never has been, there have been several books dedicated to it ,and many magazine articles,some are first hand accounts ,with directions,(these all are in spanish)there are also accounts on all of the supposedly lost mexican mines mentioned here in this forum. the un-official "take" from the mexican side is that tayopa did exist ,originally , at the site where "real de tayopa" has claimed in the sierra obscura ,this is the site that coinsides with dobies map, then the community picked up and moved north to resettle at the site that is not too far from guaynopa and nacori chico ,and where the baptismal records are still on file in badcadeuachi. i have a mining report dated 1864 from a group of engineers sent to evaluate the second tayopa site ,with the geographical cordinates given, . adding to the confusion ,is the fact that the church missions were located at some distance from the mine site ,more so in the 2nd tayopa. both tayopa mission sites are readily identifiable in mexican topographic maps ,purchased at inegi offices in any state capital. the 2nd mine site is not found on any map. as for the treasure (this is heresay, from mexican sources ),a large part of the treasure was recovered in the early 1900's ,this was at the original site where some of the bulkier items were left behind, but the and church items were taken to the 2nd site to start the new community. the 2nd tayopa operated for about 80 years until the mines flooded , the silver was reported very complicated to extract from the ore. i have seen tayopa dore bars all dated in the 1700's crudely formed, lastly, id like to comment on mexico as a country, if you favor statistics you can go to a site such as nationmaster and compare crime to that of the states and it is apparent that mexico is in almost all catagories a much safer place.if you prepare yourself ,learn as much as you can ,language ,etc and treat people with sincerity and respect you will enjoy freedom and cooperation like it was in the states years ago. i am a part time treasure (finder) based in mexico for around 15 years, i have no interest in tayopa or popular treasure legends ,but prefer to conscentrate on low key projects where i can triangulate information from various sources ,i apoligize for the lengthly message but i dont own a computer ,and took this opportunity to speak ,all the best in your search.

 

[cactusjumper]

It just doesn't get any better than this. We are soooo lucky.

Joe Ribaudo

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Hi my friend, Senor o Senorita, cual ? Annie?

I will answer a litle later.

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[Oroblanco]

HOLA mi amigos,

Welcome Lilorphanannie to Treasurenet!

Lilorphanannie wrote:

in the case of a larger treasure, one that the state deems of historical interest ,the treasure belongs to the state (this is 100% true with pre columbian finds ) . it is the general procedure, when a foreigner wants to pursue a treasure excavation ,he is to solicit permission from the office of the governor of that state, whereas an agreement is reached as how to divide the spoils. in most cases a detachment of troops will be sent with you ,and in fact ,do most of the work,

Eloquent proof of that old 'truism' that goes...DON'T STEAL! The Government HATES competition! I think many of the members do understand how it works, and muchas gracias por la informacion!

Blindbowman wrote:

if you want them to under stand it you may have to amputate their left foot ! ...lol

Well if that is the only way to learn, I suppose I can get through life just being dumb. The DVD arrived today amigo, thank you again!

Cactusjumper wrote:

James Riddle did the test over in the Prescott area. Believe they could see the reflection at around four miles, and the mica mirror outdid a quality hand mirror.

That is surprising! I read something while researching the old Heliograph system in Arizona (we had a Helio station on our property) that it was believed that some Apaches also used them for signalling, but no proof.

Cactusjumper also wrote:

I don't think the Maya cared about the reflecting properties of the slabs of mica, which Hancock said were around 90 by 90 feet. Consider the difficulty of bringing those slabs up 2000 miles from South America.
Projects like that (superhuman effort) are almost always tied to religion....in some form.

The magical properties may have had something to do with static electricity.

That is an interesting idea! You have heard of the theories about the Ark of the Covenant and similar Egyptian arks, which could act as a relatively powerful capacitor, it is not a big 'leap' to figure out they might have used this to show "supernatural" powers. We know that the Greeks had a whole science of frauds in their religious temples, including "magical" holy water receptacles, heat-triggered automatic doors, even a 'magic' metal bird "whistle" that could answer questions rather like our toy Magic Eight Ball. Should we not suspect that Mayan priests were capable of pulling frauds like this, using static electric shocks for instance? They were quite advanced in some of their sciences after all. You never fail to keep surprising me Joe.

Gossamer wrote:

I'm trying to get to go back and photograph other parts of rock pics...
Oro, I'm trying to get caught up reading about the Pearl ship... yikes. But they talked about finding pearls. I knew I had heard about something along those lines.
Janiece

"For instance, when Spiro Mound in Oklahoma was excavated in the
1930's, a tall man in full armour was discovered along with a pot of
thousands of pearls and other artefacts, the largest such treasure
so far documented. The whereabouts of the man in armour is unknown
and it is quite likely that it eventually was taken to the
Smithsonian Institution

Janiece I apologize, I forgot how LONG those threads have grown to, and there is much about the legend online too. It is one of the hardest to believe legends of the southwest, and a treasure I have never gone a-hunting for personally, but I still think it would be a great wild-goose chase (and crazy excuse to be in some of the prettiest country there is). If I live long enough I might even go waste some time searching for it myself.

I have heard of that report too - if memory serves (not a sure thing by a long shot!) they were freshwater pearls, right? The bad news is that if the man in armor was shipped to the Smithsonian, we can forget about it - they have a fairly bad reputation for "losing" artifacts that just won't 'fit' with the accepted theory of history. My wife's uncle had a rather unfortunate incident with the Smithsonian, involving an artifact that he had found metal detecting (he was known in the treasure-hunting circles as 'Diamond Don' for his habit of finding great diamonds) - the Smithsonian asked to borrow the item for display so he consented, and when he tried to get it back, well you can guess what they said; - it was somehow "lost". The amount of artifacts they keep locked in basement vaults and God-knows-where is said to be more than triple what you ever are allowed to see on display, which in my opinion is not what a museum ought to be doing. Do you recall, by the way, whether the armor was bronze or copper?

I like the petroglyphs photo too! Just a side note, but if you are into far-fetched theories and petroglyphs/inscriptions, I would like to suggest a book - "In Plain Sight, Old World Records in Ancient America" by Gloria Farley; some extracts are online at: http://www2.privatei.com/~bartjean/mainpage.htm - she was very involved in the Heavener Runestone, which some historians will now grant to be a genuine Norse inscription found in Oklahoma! Of course we still have plenty of skeptics too, but then I class these hard-headed types with the Flat Earth Society!

Real de Tayopa wrote:

HIO ORO el sock straining bug, and shell eliminator coffee. maker. I H O P E that you aren't going to tell me that it has to be worn for a week at least to bring out the full favor ? Yuch.

You posted -->

I wonder how close Dobie got, and if he realized it?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I am posting a side by side picture of Dobie's map and a superimposed line drawing of the Tayopa complex itself.

Well as for whose sock, and how long the sock should be worn before being consigned to permanent coffee stains, I cannot reveal the facts or it would be to betray Mrs Oro's secret recipe. Drinking it, you will have to trust me! Anyone want to see my socks? :P Mm-mm good to the last drop!

Thank you for the map-superimposing job amigo! That is rather striking, if I may say so. Most treasure maps are so close to worthless for actually FINDING treasures that I pay little attention to them, other than as a curiosity or even as a wall decoration. Did you ever tell Mr Dobie? I know he passed away back in '64 but don't know exactly when you got the mines.

Good luck and good hunting to you all, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
your friend,
Oroblanco

 

[the blindbowman]

"Most treasure maps are so close to worthless for actually FINDING treasures that I pay little attention to them,"

it not the maps its the treasure hunters that worthless the maps are fine ..lol just jokeing ... we all know ever treasure maps is the way to a real treasure ...lol


its not that the maps are worthless its ofter translaton .. most dont realize that the dirrect often never look the same to someone other then them self .. and thats a fact . debated with the US Navy over out dated charts ...when you are told to check out a light house and its 27 miles away from where the map says it is .. then you under stand what i am tlking about ...

this happens all the time even in a controlled navigational system . i had a aircraft carrier ask me where their last fix was .. whats that tell you lol ..its hard to mis place a air craft carrier but it happend ...to many dirrect changes to fast for their navigational team ..

when all else fails call the flagship ...theyll know

 

[the blindbowman]

if this is not a good reason for a massacre i dont know what is ...


"Don Juan de Oñate Salazar (1552 – 1626) was a Spanish explorer, colonial governor of the New Spain (present-day Mexico) province of New Mexico, and founder of various settlements in the present day Southwest of the United States.

Juan de Oñate by Reynaldo RiveraOñate was born in the New Spain city of Zacatecas to Spanish colonists. His father was the conquistador Cristóbal de Oñate. The younger Oñate began his career as an Indian fighter in the northern frontier region of New Spain. He married Isabel de Tolosa Cortés Moctezuma, granddaughter of Hernán Cortés, the conqueror of the Aztec Triple Alliance, and great granddaughter of the Aztec Emperor Moctezuma Xocoyotzin.

In 1595 he was ordered by King Philip II to colonize the upper Rio Grande (Río Bravo del Norte) valley (explored in 1540 by Francisco Vásquez de Coronado). His stated objective was to spread Roman Catholicism and establish new missions. He began the expedition in 1598, fording the Rio Grande (Río del Norte) at the present-day Ciudad Juárez–El Paso crossing in late April. On April 30, 1598 he claimed all of New Mexico beyond the river for Spain.

That summer his party continued up the Rio Grande to present-day northern New Mexico, where he encamped among the Pueblo Indians. He founded the province of Santa Fé de Nuevo México and became the province's first governor. Gaspar Pérez de Villagrá, a captain of the expedition, chronicled Oñate’s conquest of New Mexico’s indigenous peoples in his epic Historia de Nuevo México (1610).

Oñate soon gained a reputation as a stern ruler of both the Spanish colonists and the indigenous people. In October of 1598, a skirmish erupted when Oñate's occupying Spanish military demanded supplies from the Acoma tribe - demanding things essential to the Acoma surviving the Winter. The Acoma resisted and thirteen Spaniards were killed, amongst them Don Juan Oñate’s nephew. In 1599, Oñate retaliated; his soldiers killed 800 villagers. They enslaved the remaining 500 women and children, and by Don Juan’s decree, the left foot of every Acoma man over the age of twenty-five was amputated. Eighty men had their left foot amputated.

Inscription by Oñate on El Morro National Monument from 1605In 1606, Oñate was recalled to Mexico City for a hearing into his conduct. After finishing plans for the founding of the town of Santa Fé, he resigned his post and was tried and convicted of cruelty to both Indians and colonists. He was banished from the "kingdom" of New Mexico but on appeal was cleared of all charges. Eventually Oñate went to Spain, where the king appointed him head of mining inspectors for all of Spain. He died in Spain in 1626. He is sometimes referred to as "the Last Conquistador."

Bronze equestrian statue of Oñate, El Paso, TexasOñate is honored by some Anglo-Americans, Spanish Americans and Mexican Americans for his exploratory ventures, but is vilified by others for his cruelty to the Indians of Acoma Pueblo. In the Oñate Monument Visitors Center northeast of Española on New Mexico highway 68 is the 1991 bronze statute dedicated to the man. In 1998 New Mexico celebrated the four hundredth anniversary of his arrival, but that same year individuals opposed to the statue cut off the statue's right foot and left a note saying, "Fair is fair." The sculptor, Reynaldo Rivera, recast the foot but the seam is still visible. Some commentators suggested leaving the statue maimed as a symbolic reminder of the foot-mutilating incident.

 

[the blindbowman]

look at the dates of this event 1598-1599 this takes place the same time as my target dates say it did . some time with in 5 years of the 1603 , remember the tayopa legend of the massacre . it took place between the spainish at site of the Acoma a site of montezuma's homeland .. this matches the detail very closely to the site i am working on ... look at the dates Inscription by Oñate on El Morro National Monument from 1605 In 1606,

makes me question just how close i am ..

so tayopa was there in 1571 and then , this takes place in 1598 the bells were cast in 1603 and tayopa is no longer inhabited by 1608, then the land becomes pedro's..1608

in my hyplothesis Tayopa is created and destoryed with in 27 years ..a totall life span of 27 years if we asume the 1571 date to be evidence .. if not this would make the massacre site take place in 1598 -1599 makeing tayopa no more then a few years older then that date of 1598 say around 1595 vs the 1608 date , makeing tayopa 15 years life span ...

i dont know about the rest of you but i would not have wanted to try liveing out there after what Oñate had done ...i think your looking at the main reason tayopa had such a short life and then vanished.....

 

[Oroblanco]

Not to be "picky" here, and please feel free to correct me if I am wrong, but if we are talking about Onate, according to what I read he crossed Arizona pretty far NORTH of the Superstitions, then reached the Colorado river and followed it south, right? Where did he enter the Superstitions at all? I am confused again.
Oroblanco

 

[the blindbowman]

Not to be "picky" here, and please feel free to correct me if I am wrong, but if we are talking about Onate, according to what I read he crossed Arizona pretty far NORTH of the Superstitions, then reached the Colorado river and followed it south, right? Where did he enter the Superstitions at all? I am confused again.
Oroblanco

it dose nt dirrectly state he did but if my hyplothesis is right this was a Acoma site and this may explane where the tribe vanished to ..

 

[Oroblanco]

If Onate did enter the Superstitions, there is a fair chance that he would have left some kind of carved inscription behind for posterity, like he did over in NM, written in that fancy archaic Spanish script. It would be quite a find in itself, even without any kind of treasure!
Oroblanco

 

[the blindbowman]

If Onate did enter the Superstitions, there is a fair chance that he would have left some kind of carved inscription behind for posterity, like he did over in NM, written in that fancy archaic Spanish script. It would be quite a find in itself, even without any kind of treasure!
Oroblanco

do have copy of that type of fancy archaic Spanish script...i have a reason for ask ..

 

[Oroblanco]

Here is some examples of it from El Morro monument where Onate left an inscription:

 

[cactusjumper]

bb,

I believe you are mistaken. The bottom picture is of an inscription by Ramon Garcia Jurado. It reads:

"On the 25th. of the month of June, of this year of 1709, passed by here on the way to Zuni, Ramon Garcia Jurado."

Diego de Vargas' inscription reads:

"Here was the General Don Diego de Vargas, who conquered for our Holy Faith, and for the Royal Crown, all of New Mexico at his own expense, year of 1692."

The dates are easy enough to read.

Joe Ribaudo