Stone Maps Revealed

[sdcfia]

Thanks to Joe, Dave, Wayne and Mike for providing a few places and names to start looking.

 

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[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Oh ye of little faiith, Hker.

 

[azdave35]

Dave, I'm not asking where the cave is supposed to be or even where folks have looked or are looking. What I'd like to know is who LaFrance (France) was, what his history was, how he supposedly obtained his information, when and from whom. Also, who, when and why he passed on what he knew to others. And, since you mentioned other such caves, when did this other info come to light and who released it?

its kinda hard to sort it out because i think 2 or 3 of those cave stories are all about the same cave,,,just the names and the facts got scrambled over the years..these stories have been around for decades and have been told many times...every time it was handed down it was stretched and changed a bit.......ive heard of such caves in little boulder...black top...bluff springs...malapais ...and a few others at the south end of the mountains

 

[sdcfia]

its kinda hard to sort it out because i think 2 or 3 of those cave stories are all about the same cave,,,just the names and the facts got scrambled over the years..these stories have been around for decades and have been told many times...every time it was handed down it was stretched and changed a bit.......ive heard of such caves in little boulder...black top...bluff springs...malapais ...and a few others at the south end of the mountains

I'm trying to verify if these stories started in the 1930s and maybe were renewed in the 70s or early 80s.

 

[gollum]

AZDAVE35,

While it is possible a couple of those stories got mixed up, some of them are so different that they have to be different caves or they were made up entirely. Like, there is no way to confuse Bob Crandall's Story about walking with Ed Piper and finding the guy crawling down the trail almost dead and telling them about falling into a cave full of treasure and a life sized golden statue with the Harry (La)France story of sheltering under a triangle shaped boulder to get out of the rain and finding stacks of gold bars further inside.

But if one were so inclined, they could make a blend of the Bob Brady, Harry (La)France, and Jim Diamond Stories.

Mike

 

[deducer]

Since you brought it up, I must say that the only tale out of the many Superstitions legends that I would like to know more about, and which would prompt me to invest time, is the LaFrance story. Can you provide an opinion about the best available source of information for it? "Caves of gold bars", along with "mines with iron doors", "Mexicans with maps" and other storylines are a surprisingly common thread connectinga surprising number of "unsolved" treasure legends.

You should talk to Paul (Cubfan64) althought I haven't seen him post in a while. I believe he mentioned he had collected quite a bit of information on both France's and Brady's caves.

 

[sdcfia]

You should talk to Paul (Cubfan64) althought I haven't seen him post in a while. I believe he mentioned he had collected quite a bit of information on both France's and Brady's caves.

OK ... thanks.

 

[somehiker]

Wayne,

I agree that Harry's last name was France, but I know he used LaFrance with Chuck and others. That's the name Chuck told me, and I have one of Chuck's old Topo's with the Harry LaFrance signature on the back, along with the phone number of the parts store Tracy worked at. Don't know how to explain the LaFrance name, but I'm sure it was something he used. It was many years later that I came across the DeGrazia book and well after I had voiced my theory that Ted was involved in the Stone Maps. So in your assertion that "it's part of Joe's theory of a DeGrazia connection" you are in left field. There are a number of reasons for my theory and that one came in very late.

Take care,

Joe

Joe:

If left field is where you keep the evidence which you uncover, that lends support to your theories, then that's where I am I guess.
I have no reason to doubt the existence of such a cave, or even the possibility of several similar storage places. Or in the truth of what you were told.
But Harry's cave is not a priority for me, nor the reasons for the differing spellings of his last name. It could certainly be the La France family for whom DG signed his book was headed by the very same Harry France who found the cave and retrieved the gold bar from it. People would sometimes add a La or Von or even an esq to their signature in order to inflate a perception of their families heritage. Did any of the principals of the story ever mention a relationship between Harry and De Grazia, that you know of ?

Regards:Wayne

 

[cactusjumper]

its kinda hard to sort it out because i think 2 or 3 of those cave stories are all about the same cave,,,just the names and the facts got scrambled over the years..these stories have been around for decades and have been told many times...every time it was handed down it was stretched and changed a bit.......ive heard of such caves in little boulder...black top...bluff springs...malapais ...and a few others at the south end of the mountains

Dave,

My uncle was involved in both searches, Bob Brady's and Harry LaFrances. Those are not mixed at all.

Good luck,

Joe

 

[somehiker]

Oh ye of little faiith, Hker.

What it comes down to Joseph....as applied to the stones.....IS faith

 

[azdave35]

AZDAVE35,

While it is possible a couple of those stories got mixed up, some of them are so different that they have to be different caves or they were made up entirely. Like, there is no way to confuse Bob Crandall's Story about walking with Ed Piper and finding the guy crawling down the trail almost dead and telling them about falling into a cave full of treasure and a life sized golden statue with the Harry (La)France story of sheltering under a triangle shaped boulder to get out of the rain and finding stacks of gold bars further inside.

But if one were so inclined, they could make a blend of the Bob Brady, Harry (La)France, and Jim Diamond Stories.

Mike

yep..brady and la france for sure

 

[cactusjumper]

You should talk to Paul (Cubfan64) althought I haven't seen him post in a while. I believe he mentioned he had collected quite a bit of information on both France's and Brady's caves.

Yes, by all means get in touch with Paul, I'm sure he has top notch information on both the Bob Brady and Harry LaFrance stories. The man is at the top of the food chain when it comes to this kind of research. You might even be able to entice him back onto this site.

Good luck,


Joe Ribaudo

 

[Hal Croves]

Hal, you asked about other rocks the family may have. I will tell you what I know that isn't much and is basically worthless. Didn't want you to think I was avoiding your question.

I have heard of other "rocks" in the possession of the family. These are rocks other than the Spanish ship, which we already know about. Its a large family spread over a couple of states. I don't know who has them or where they are located. Nor do I know what they depict. So you see, I'm not your best source of information. I know what I'd LIKE them to be, but we will have to wait and see.

Lynda

Old,
I thought that you might find this interesting. El Paso herald. (El Paso, Tex.) 1901-1931, April 29, 1912, Sport and Society Section, Page 16, Image 16 « Chronicling America « Library of Congress

Any idea if this gentleman is related to the family? Note the date.

 

[markmar]

Happy new year to all !

Joe

I believe the West Boulder and Little Boulder were only in the way of Harry LaFrance to the cave .
In Tom Kollenborn's Chronicles Tom Kollenborn Chronicles: Caves of Gold Bars ,Tom wrote : " Dale Howard, Tracy Hawkins and Ernie Provence often talked about France discovering a cave filled with gold bars near Black Top Mesa or Weaver’s Needle. " .
This put automatically the LaFrance cave close to Brady's . Could be the same ? Maybe . I wrote about the triangle shaped rock in this site and I put it close to the Walter Perrine's cave . So , in accordance with the Padres map in that region could be 5 ( five ) caves of gold bars .
Also the Stone trail map don't leads to any of these caves , IMO .



P.S.

Also the place of the triangle shaped rock was recognized in a map from 1873 .

 

[cactusjumper]

Happy new year to all !

Joe

I believe the West Boulder and Little Boulder were only in the way of Harry LaFrance to the cave .
In Tom Kollenborn's Chronicles Tom Kollenborn Chronicles: Caves of Gold Bars ,Tom wrote : " Dale Howard, Tracy Hawkins and Ernie Provence often talked about France discovering a cave filled with gold bars near Black Top Mesa or Weaver’s Needle. " .
This put automatically the LaFrance cave close to Brady's . Could be the same ? Maybe . I wrote about the triangle shaped rock in this site and I put it close to the Walter Perrine's cave . So , in accordance with the Padres map in that region could be 5 ( five ) caves of gold bars .
Also the Stone trail map don't lead to any of these caves , IMO .

View attachment 1254282 View attachment 1254283

P.S.

Also the place of the triangle shaped rock was recognized in a map from 1873 .

Marius,

Tom is mistaken about the location of Harry's cave of gold bars. I don't know who Tom's source was for writing that, but that person was dead wrong.

My uncle, Chuck Ribaudo, and his partners, Ernie Provence, Tracy Hawking and Dale Howard were all part of that original search with Harry. They were also with Harry on his last trip searching for the cave. On that trip, Harry got very ill and Chuck had to tie him onto his horse and lead it out of the mountains. They took him to the VA hospital in, I believe, Prescott, where he eventually died.

All of those people held Harry's gold bar in their hands. They all personally related the story to me. Their primary search area was West Boulder and Old West Boulder. Tracy told me he was with Harry when he sold the gold bar in Prescott? and when he cashed the check back in Phoenix. As I recall, the check was between 6-7 thousand dollars.

Good luck,

Joe

 

[cactusjumper]

Marius,

One other thing.......Tracy told me that the triangle rock was standing upright, not laying flat. It was about the size of a baby grand piano.
I have an approximate 1-hour interview that we made with Tracy, where we asked him all the questions about the event that we could
think of.

Good luck,

Joe

 

[cw0909]

Old,
I thought that you might find this interesting. El Paso herald. (El Paso, Tex.) 1901-1931, April 29, 1912, Sport and Society Section, Page 16, Image 16 « Chronicling America « Library of Congress

Any idea if this gentleman is related to the family? Note the date.

Hal could he be, Jasper Buchanan TUMLINSON
Born 4 apr 1878 texas died 25 apr 1912
Phoenix, Maricopa, Arizona
at 5:20 p.m. at 710 W. Madison
Cause of death Pneumonia
27 Apr 1912 Stockton Cemetery, Charco, Goliad, Texas
Jasper Buchanan TUMLINSON b. 4 Apr 1878 Texas, USA d. 25 Apr 1912 Phoenix, Maricopa, Arizona, USA: Robert and Christina Barritt's Family History Page

Locality

[TD="colspan: 2"]Death Records[/TD]

[TD="colspan: 2"]Arizona Department of Health Services, Vital Records Section[/TD]

Death Records: Robert and Christina Barritt's Family History Page

 

[markmar]

Joe

That triangle shaped rock is not laying flat ( you have misinterpret a " bad " GE image ) but is standing upright and is about 6 ft tall and about 6 ft large at the base .

 

[azdave35]

Joe

That triangle shaped rock is not laying flat ( you have misinterpret a " bad " GE image ) but is standing upright and is about 6 ft tall and about 6 ft large at the base .

View attachment 1254479

you must eat alot of carrots cuz you have one hell of a pair of eyes...lol...

 

[Azquester]

A Treasure Hunter down in Tucson had a very similar story about a life sized statue made of solid gold discovered in the Santa Rita Mountains in God awful rough canyon somewhere around Madera Canyon. I went searching for it myself years ago. I think we have a bunch of different authors of Treasure Stories blending their two cents into History. Or it may be people read a story on treasure hunter mags and get the idea there. It's a very common story at least in AZ.