Stone Maps Revealed

[somehiker]

deducer,
I read the revelations and according to the author, all the stones except for the small white collection were carved by Travis. That would essentially eliminate Ted's involvement. Honestly, there is some decent work here but once again, the conclusions and reasoning are very difficult to follow. As I read it, Peg-legs map (ground map) was used to find the small white stones. To keep people guessing and confused, and for profit, Travis carved up to five sets of stone maps, none of any particular value.

If this is correct, Mrs. Tumlinson intentionally sold a set of fake stones to CM and the Tumlinson's (the family) allowed an intentional fraud to go unchallenged for years.

Did that really happen?

According to those connected to Ted work, that conical hat was worn by Navajo holy men.

Don't forget these guys....

 

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[Oroblanco]

Thank you Deducer, you actually posted a better reply than I could. Cactusjumper posted the strongest case for DeGrazia having hidden his artwork in the Superstitions, including extracts from a book (which title I have promptly forgotten, sorry) that had a most interesting phrase,

"You would pluck the heart out of my mystery..."

Also there is a clear hint in the caption under a photo in that same book, which photo shows DeGrazia with his artwork, the caption reading that this is the site where the artwork is "bured". Burned would have been correct, or buried. Was this a deliberate error, to give a clue? I think it was.

Anyway Cactusjumper could present the evidence of DeGrazia having pulled a good one on the IRS by pretending to burn his artwork in protest, while hiding it in the Superstitions, he is the one that had figured it out not me.

Please do continue;

 

[azdave35]

more info just posted on the other site

 

[Old]

Good morning,

Hal & Ab, I'm not posting here to convince you of anything. Its here to read and digest to your liking. You can file it for further reference or discard it as you choose.

Yes, I used the word "revelation". I'd say about 1/3 (or more) of what I directed you to is new news. By most everyone's standard revelation would be an appropriate word. Your mileage may vary which is perfectly okay. However; I challenge you to site your references to where this new news has been previously revealed.

Hal, I do question why a Peralta connection to the Superstition area would be at all unusual. Why do you think so? There are two families of Peralta's living in Phoenix as of 1880 as shown by the Federal Census. One with a head of household by the given name of Miguel no less. There are also what appears to be two orphan Peralta children living with 2 other families. By a lesser proven census taken in California in 1860 a Jacob Walls (which translates to Waltz) a German born about 1810 is shown boarding with a Peralta born in Mexico. There is ample documented opportunity for the name Peralta to be intertwined with both the Superstition area and Jacob Waltz.

 

[cactusjumper]

Thank you Deducer, you actually posted a better reply than I could. Cactusjumper posted the strongest case for DeGrazia having hidden his artwork in the Superstitions, including extracts from a book (which title I have promptly forgotten, sorry) that had a most interesting phrase,

"You would pluck the heart out of my mystery..."

Also there is a clear hint in the caption under a photo in that same book, which photo shows DeGrazia with his artwork, the caption reading that this is the site where the artwork is "bured". Burned would have been correct, or buried. Was this a deliberate error, to give a clue? I think it was.

Anyway Cactusjumper could present the evidence of DeGrazia having pulled a good one on the IRS by pretending to burn his artwork in protest, while hiding it in the Superstitions, he is the one that had figured it out not me.


Please do continue;

Roy,

The quote you are thinking of came from Tom K's "Superstition Mountain: A Ride Through Time". It can be found on page 126, "You would play upon me; you would seem to know my stops; you would pluck out the heart of my mystery; you would sound me from my lowest note to the top of my compass". It was Chuck Aylor's favorite quote from Shakespeare.

That was where I first suspected Tom of being part of the Stone Map creators. He also rode the Stone Map Trail, according to Joe Ribaudo Tom knew Chuck Aylor and Ted DeGrazia who I also suspected of being involved in the stones. Tom has told me he had nothing to do with them, but was flattered as he thought the artist who carved them was very talented. Tom's word is good enough for me. As an aside on that, Dr. Glover has a picture of Chuck Aylor on page 210 of his first Dutchman book. Anyone who looks at Chuck's profile in that picture, may see a striking resemblance to the "witch" on the Stone Maps.

Hope you guys are staying warm and cozy these days.

Take care,

Joe

 

[coazon de oro]

Howdy Old,

Made up stories are news news to everyone, how can you challenge anyone to have read something that has just been made up?

Revelations are based on facts, not assumptions. I challenge you, or anyone to present some proof to the news news.

Homar

 

[Old]

Homar,

I'm waiting just like everyone else to see all of the documents. What I have seen (and heard) is multiple eye witnesses to the what the "original" stones looked like and where they were kept. To me, that's new news and a revelation.

As I said, I'm not here to convince anyone of anything. I have absolutely NO stake in the outcome other than looking for a straight story. Joe and his cousins are far closer to the facts than anyone left on the face of the earth. You (collective you) either believe them or you don't. Its really as simple as that.

Lynda

 

[Hal Croves]

Good morning,

Hal & Ab, I'm not posting here to convince you of anything. Its here to read and digest to your liking. You can file it for further reference or discard it as you choose.

Yes, I used the word "revelation". I'd say about 1/3 (or more) of what I directed you to is new news. By most everyone's standard revelation would be an appropriate word. Your mileage may vary which is perfectly okay. However; I challenge you to site your references to where this new news has been previously revealed.

Hal, I do question why a Peralta connection to the Superstition area would be at all unusual. Why do you think so? There are two families of Peralta's living in Phoenix as of 1880 as shown by the Federal Census. One with a head of household by the given name of Miguel no less. There are also what appears to be two orphan Peralta children living with 2 other families. By a lesser proven census taken in California in 1860 a Jacob Walls (which translates to Waltz) a German born about 1810 is shown boarding with a Peralta born in Mexico. There is ample documented opportunity for the name Peralta to be intertwined with both the Superstition area and Jacob Waltz.

I think that most people (correctly or not) understand a "revelation" to be the discovery of some previously unknown or misunderstood fact. New "thoughts" or "insights" may have been easier to swallow. Again, just my opinion and not all that important really.

Why is a Peralta connection to the Superstitions unusual? Not sure that it is unusual however, it is historically undocumented. "It" meaning a Peralta mining operation in the Superstitions. We simply have no officially recognised record of "it".

Regarding the Peralta family in Phoenix, Miguel L. Peralta, the Wickenburg post master (78'), and pioneer merchant... what possible reason would he have for not filing a claim in the Superstitions? He certainly was entitled to do so legally. The only logical reason not to file a claim (if they had one) would have been the sudden appearance of J.A. Reavis in the spring 1883. Fear of losing it to Reavis makes absolute sense however, as early as 84' the papers were already at work exposing the fraud. In 76' & 78' Miguel was in court trying to recover thousands ($1394.41 & $3161.45) for "unpaid goods, wares,and merchandise". Why bother if he had knowledge and access to an unlimited source of wealth?

I am not sure what a "lesser proven census" is but the only Jacob Walls that I could find in the 1860 California census was a 50 year old laborer who lived with Reuben Blackey (a 23 year old miner from VA) and three others Warren, Brown, & Harvey. No Peralta. I am not sure if this is your Jacob Walls or not however, in 1867, a Jacob Walls, "laborer" is found living in San Francisco.

Do you mind explaining the "ample documented opportunity for the name Peralta to be intertwined with the Sups and Waltz"?

Again, you and your team have done some good work on this.

 

[Hal Croves]

Homar,

I'm waiting just like everyone else to see all of the documents. What I have seen (and heard) is multiple eye witnesses to the what the "original" stones looked like and where they were kept. To me, that's new news and a revelation.

As I said, I'm not here to convince anyone of anything. I have absolutely NO stake in the outcome other than looking for a straight story. Joe and his cousins are far closer to the facts than anyone left on the face of the earth. You (collective you) either believe them or you don't. Its really as simple as that.

Lynda

Old,
I will not ask you to go into detail however, you used "looked" & "were". This reads as if the location of the "original" stones is unknown. Is this correct or is their location known?

 

[somehiker]

Hi Linda:

We are all looking for the straight story, rather than the constant dribble of innuendos and so called "facts" everyone has been fed for so many years.
And those interested have also seen Joe, Gary and Billy in Ryan's videos #7 and #8 and heard directly from them the facts about these stones. I must admit a sense of disappointment, having speculated that the original stones (as authentic artifacts) Travis claimed to have found had never been out of and remained in the family's possession to this day. But Joe's and Garry's words, beginning about six minutes into Video #8 had shaken that belief.

I was also somewhat disappointed, but not surprised, to have another theory of mine ridiculed, not just on these sites, but in the video as well. That particular theory was based on a belief in the heart stone being a genuine artifact and possibly found by Travis already broken and repaired as seemed apparent in the "bumper photo". I had suggested that the glue used in such a circumstance, ie: over a hundred years or more ago, could have been manufactured from pine sap (gum). That possibility did not arise from a vacuum, but from prior study and a practical knowledge of historical artifacts and back country survival methods. I mistakenly assumed that at least a couple of folks would look it up. Or that those who shared such knowledge would comment on the possibility. For those who didn't then, and considering the most recent "revelation" that the heart stone was broken by Travis' father, who panicked for some reason and used cement from a tire and tube patching kit to put it back together, you might Google where such cement (glue) came from....the most common and primary ingredient being rubber gum ( aka tree sap).

To make it easy for those who might be interested....

How To Make Pine Pitch Glue Primative Skills

https://www.google.ca/search?q=glue...nYjIXKAhVH1h4KHcC0AlwQsAQIPw&biw=1161&bih=596

Some generalized info on natural adhesives....including tree saps of various types.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adhesive

Regards:SH.

 

[Old]

Hal,

Yeap, you are right. I confused the 1870 census with the 1860 Census. That's what I get for writing off the top of my head and not going back to my notes. The California 1860 Census was important to me because of the W. S. Reed connection and not for Peralta reasons. I believe I have seen California information that does include a Waltz/Peralta connection. I will have to dig for it. My weak memory says it was a Peralta woman. If I find it again I will post it.

Here's a 1870 Phoenix Census that's also interesting. My use of "lesser proven" with BOTH of these census is that I feel there is enough similarity to "our" guy to hold on to it but I can not say with absolute certainty its our guy. The 1880 Census is dead on positive its our guy. We know the census takers wrote what they heard and not necessarily the correct spelling of names. I will go pretty far afield in searching by various name sounds vs. spellings.

My original point was, both the 1870 census and the 1880 census include Peralta names in our neighborhood. Peralta's were not strangers to the Superstition Mtns. area. Even though I may have confused my references, there is ample (Lots) of evidence they were in the area.

I'll let you decide if the California Reed/Waltz (Walls) connection is worth holding onto for prospects. I'm holding it. To me, its too good not to hang on to for further research.



As to your question about me using pasted tense, it has no ulterior meaning. I'm waiting to see the "goods" just like everyone else.

Lynda

 

[cactusjumper]

Hi Linda:

We are all looking for the straight story, rather than the constant dribble of innuendos and so called "facts" everyone has been fed for so many years.
And those interested have also seen Joe, Gary and Billy in Ryan's videos #7 and #8 and heard directly from them the facts about these stones. I must admit a sense of disappointment, having speculated that the original stones Travis claimed to have found had never been out of and remained in the family's possession to this day. But Joe's and Garry's words, beginning about six minutes into Video #8 had shaken that belief.

I was also somewhat disappointed, but not surprised, to have another theory of mine ridiculed, not just on these sites, but in the video as well. That particular theory was based on a belief in the heart stone being a genuine artifact and possibly found by Travis already broken and repaired as seemed apparent in the "bumper photo". I had suggested that the glue used in such a circumstance, ie: over a hundred years or more ago, could have been manufactured from pine sap (gum). That possibility did not arise from a vacuum, but from prior study and a practical knowledge of historical artifacts and back country survival methods. I mistakenly assumed that at least a couple of folks would at least look it up. Or that those who shared such knowledge would comment on the possibility. For those who didn't then, and considering the most recent "revelation" that the heart stone was broken by Travis' father, who panicked for some reason and used cement from a tire and tube patching kit to put it back together, you might Google where such cement (glue) came from....the most common and primary ingredient being rubber gum ( aka tree sap).

To make it easy for those who might be interested....

How To Make Pine Pitch Glue Primative Skills

https://www.google.ca/search?q=glue...nYjIXKAhVH1h4KHcC0AlwQsAQIPw&biw=1161&bih=596

Some generalized info on natural adhesives....including tree saps of various types.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adhesive

Regards:SH.

Wayne,

Hope all is well with you and your family.

It seems to me that the entire "Stone Map" story comes from a dark and murky place. There has been deceit right out of the gate. Now that Ryan is stirring that pot, the only question that really remains is, are we getting the truth now. History tells me Ryan may only be getting what the family wants him to have. I'm waiting to see the end story.

Take care,

Joe

 

[cactusjumper]

One other thing.......There seems to be a lot that connects Peg Leg Smith to Peg Leg Tumlinson. Treasure hunting, Borrego Springs, one leg and surrounded by lies. Were they the same man?

Joe Ribaudo

 

[somehiker]

Hi Joe:

It is, and I offer the same wish for you and yours.
Many treasure tales and trails are cloaked in darkness, with deception the rule rather than the exception. Could be the two were one and the same, considering Smith as being a name popular with those who had something to hide. I think most will often act as though they are holding a full house, at least until their hand lies face up for all to see.
Back when, it was pretty risky to actually hold all the cards....maybe it still is.

Regards:Wayne

 

[Old]

Hal, thanks for your comments as to the good work of "my" team. However; I don't want you to get the wrong impression of my contribution to the effort. My role, if any, has been very small. I didn't do the heavy lifting on this one. Ryan, Dave, Garry, Frank and several others are due the credits. My role was more active in the early investigation of possibilities. What Ryan has done in turning over all the stones (excuse the pun) has been amazing.

I talk with Ryan often but I don't pry. He's limited in what he can and can not share. I recognize that and don't pester him for details. They will come in time. All things in time. What I do know is that he and those close to the investigation have been relentless in pursuit of the story. Regardless of anyone's personal beliefs, they have gotten closer to the sources and details than anyone coming before them. Its been an amazing thing to watch play out and its not over yet.

On a side note. I have been so amazed by Ryan's drone footage. So much so that I've nagged my husband, who's much more mechanically inclined than I, to get one. Well, my husband's present to me for Christmas was a trainer drone. His comment to me was.... learn on this one and if you master it, we will think about getting the more expensive one. The skies around here are no longer safe. Its still in one piece but I can tell you flying it is NOT easy. So far I can land and take off, get about a B- in hovering and a solid A in forward thrust. Left/right navigation is in the D+ range. I have flown it between the rails in the pasture fence <g>. I'm taking credit for that being skill rather than a lucky accident <g>. When the FAA shows up I'm blaming Ryan.......its all his fault.

 

[Hal Croves]

Hi Linda:

We are all looking for the straight story, rather than the constant dribble of innuendos and so called "facts" everyone has been fed for so many years.
And those interested have also seen Joe, Gary and Billy in Ryan's videos #7 and #8 and heard directly from them the facts about these stones. I must admit a sense of disappointment, having speculated that the original stones (as authentic artifacts) Travis claimed to have found had never been out of and remained in the family's possession to this day. But Joe's and Garry's words, beginning about six minutes into Video #8 had shaken that belief.

I was also somewhat disappointed, but not surprised, to have another theory of mine ridiculed, not just on these sites, but in the video as well. That particular theory was based on a belief in the heart stone being a genuine artifact and possibly found by Travis already broken and repaired as seemed apparent in the "bumper photo". I had suggested that the glue used in such a circumstance, ie: over a hundred years or more ago, could have been manufactured from pine sap (gum). That possibility did not arise from a vacuum, but from prior study and a practical knowledge of historical artifacts and back country survival methods. I mistakenly assumed that at least a couple of folks would look it up. Or that those who shared such knowledge would comment on the possibility. For those who didn't then, and considering the most recent "revelation" that the heart stone was broken by Travis' father, who panicked for some reason and used cement from a tire and tube patching kit to put it back together, you might Google where such cement (glue) came from....the most common and primary ingredient being rubber gum ( aka tree sap).

To make it easy for those who might be interested....

How To Make Pine Pitch Glue Primative Skills

https://www.google.ca/search?q=glue...nYjIXKAhVH1h4KHcC0AlwQsAQIPw&biw=1161&bih=596

Some generalized info on natural adhesives....including tree saps of various types.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adhesive

Regards:SH.

somehiker,
Would you mind explaining the above highlighted in red. Honestly, I have not seen the video that you are writing about and chances are that I will not.
Regarding your theory, if the heart was repaired at a much earlier point in history, there would have been few other options.
About being ridiculing publicly... just consider the source.

You are home and safe and posting again which is all that matters. Have a great New Year and all the best to you in 2016.

 

[Hal Croves]

Hal, thanks for your comments as to the good work of "my" team. However; I don't want you to get the wrong impression of my contribution to the effort. My role, if any, has been very small. I didn't do the heavy lifting on this one. Ryan, Dave, Garry, Frank and several others are due the credits. My role was more active in the early investigation of possibilities. What Ryan has done in turning over all the stones (excuse the pun) has been amazing.

I talk with Ryan often but I don't pry. He's limited in what he can and can not share. I recognize that and don't pester him for details. They will come in time. All things in time. What I do know is that he and those close to the investigation have been relentless in pursuit of the story. Regardless of anyone's personal beliefs, they have gotten closer to the sources and details than anyone coming before them. Its been an amazing thing to watch play out and its not over yet.

On a side note. I have been so amazed by Ryan's drone footage. So much so that I've nagged my husband, who's much more mechanically inclined than I, to get one. Well, my husband's present to me for Christmas was a trainer drone. His comment to me was.... learn on this one and if you master it, we will think about getting the more expensive one. The skies around here are no longer safe. Its still in one piece but I can tell you flying it is NOT easy. So far I can land and take off, get about a B- in hovering and a solid A in forward thrust. Left/right navigation is in the D+ range. I have flown it between the rails in the pasture fence <g>. I'm taking credit for that being skill rather than a lucky accident <g>. When the FAA shows up I'm blaming Ryan.......its all his fault.

Old,
Enjoy the evening and have a healthy, prosperous 2016.

 

[Hal Croves]

Old,
I will not ask you to go into detail however, you used "looked" & "were". This reads as if the location of the "original" stones is unknown. Is this correct or is their location known?

Old,
You slippery drone pilot, any chance you could clear this up for me? somehikers post has me scratching my noggin.

 

[gollum]

Wayne,

I think that if you look far enough back on one of these three forums, you will see that Jim Hatt and I both wanted to get the adhesive tested a long time ago, but were told the museum only displayed the stone maps, and felt it was not up to them to test the stones for authenticity. So, any thoughts of testing the glue on the heart insert was quashed.

Mike

 

[markmar]

Because the heart was glued by Travis relatives , this don't make Travis the stone maker .
The Ryan's " revelation " is a well narrated tall tale ( for the moment ) . Is a lure to make people to want to buy the manuscript and to see the incoming documentaries . The good advertisement is the " heart ' of the successful sale . Is a common practice of the story sellers .
Travis had not idea of who have carved the stone maps ( IMO ) .