Stone Maps Revealed

[cactusjumper]

Wayne,

I think that if you look far enough back on one of these three forums, you will see that Jim Hatt and I both wanted to get the adhesive tested a long time ago, but were told the museum only displayed the stone maps, and felt it was not up to them to test the stones for authenticity. So, any thoughts of testing the glue on the heart insert was quashed.

Mike

Mike,

While Jim was teasing us with what he wanted to do, I was the one who exposed that the only thing that could be tested would be the glue on the heart. I was saying that such a test would never be done by the museum. Nothing positive could be gained for them if the test showed modern-day glue. Much better to leave the whole thing wrapped in mystery.

Take care,

Joe

 

Amazon Forum Fav 👍

Cry Of The Eagle: History And Legends Of The Cherokee Indians And Their Buried Treasure - Grab it through Amazon!

[cactusjumper]

Here is that post from June, 2010:

Jun 11, 2010, 09:05 AM
#1721 cactusjumper

• View Profile
• View Forum Posts
• Private Message

---

Dec 2005

Arizona

6,595

2150 times


[h=2]Re: The Peralta Stones[/h]

Jim,

There is only one "substance" that might be tested from the Stone Maps. That would be the glue that is holding the heart together. Everything else is.....rock. I heard, years ago, that someone from the museum broke it. If that is true, there is not much point in trying to "date" it.

On the other hand, your efforts to have the age of the maps confirmed is to be commended, misguided as they may be.

It will be interesing to see how much weight the owners/museum will give to your theory. In that regard, I wish you luck.

Having said that, I don't believe testing of the Stone Maps will be done any time soon, or anytime at all.

Phil, who is on the site now, would be the one who would have the best information on that, as I believe he was the "prime mover" in getting the maps for the Superstition Mountain Museum.

Years ago, when you were a "Lone Wolf", you sent me pictures of your "heart"......and stuff. You had found everything except a treasure using your theory of the Stone Map trail. Why do you feel the need to authenticate the maps now?

Take care,

Joe​

" Hell, I was there!" Elmer Keith
"There is an ancient proverb that says a man can never forgive you for a wrong he has done you." From a wise friend.
​

 

[somehiker]

somehiker,
Would you mind explaining the above highlighted in red. Honestly, I have not seen the video that you are writing about and chances are that I will not.
Regarding your theory, if the heart was repaired at a much earlier point in history, there would have been few other options.
About being ridiculing publicly... just consider the source.

You are home and safe and posting again which is all that matters. Have a great New Year and all the best to you in 2016.

Hal:

Same wish for you and may 2016 bring good fortune to all of us here.

The videos I mentioned are currently available on Youtube, having been missing for some time, but only until Jan 1, when Ryan has said they will be removed once more.
The segment with Garry's own theory about the stone versions of the original PegLeg map runs from about 6-10 minutes in. The "tree sap" comments are made a bit later in the interview, about 9 or 10 minutes in.
The existence of several versions of the three larger stones and the heart stone have been discussed here and on the other two web sites many times over the years.
Within those discussions, I have stated my belief that the two "trail map" stones on display at the museum were copies, altered but still usable, fabricated by either Travis or even by Mitchell. There were enough differences between what could be seen in the bumper photo and the museum stones to support that belief IMO. I also believed the HP and Heart stone are originals, and found by Travis with the use of a map from his grandfather's collection that was mentioned in "Coronado's Children" by F.Dobie, rather than similarly altered copies.
I have also previously shared my suspicions that the "original" trail stones, the ones now described as being of the same stone, or at least color, as the HP stone, remained in the family's hands in Texas. The memories and theories of both Joe and Gary....at the time they were interviewed...certainly seemed to indicate that Travis carved ALL of the stones, not just those in the museum, and based them on portions of the PegLeg maps. I was disappointed to hear that of course, since it ran counter to my own theories and what I had seen out there in the mountains. Another thought I had upon viewing the interviews, was that if it was true that Travis had carved all of the stones, it would be unfortunate in that if any substantially valuable cache(s) were ever found out there with the aid of these stones, that those stones would also be very valuable to those who had them. But not if they were merely products of Travis' hobby of carving visions and treasure maps on stones found in Texas.
However, Ryan's latest 4 part series of "revelations" mentioned previously by "Old", most having been discussed previously in threads going back at least as far as 2002...alternate locations for where the stones were claimed to have been recovered for example...they do seem to be authenticating some of the stone maps, possibly still in the possession of the Tumlinson family, rather than debunking them all IMO.
Of course I could be wrong, as I evidently was with my "tree sap" glue theory. Having acknowledged my faux pas, I do have to agree with rubber cement being a poor choice for the repair of the broken heart, since while it is easy to remove any excess glue from the surface of the object, it remains flexible, whereas glue derived from pine gum dries rigid and any excess is very difficult to remove unless solvent is immediately available. Because of the powdered charcoal present in the mix of ingredients for pine glue, the cured cement is also black, rather than the amber hue of tire and tube patching cement. I likely still have some of that out in the garage, although it might be a more recent version made from synthetic polymer. Maybe something assembled with pine glue as well.

 

[Old]

Wishing everyone a Happy, Healthy and Prosperous New Year.

Lynda

 

[somehiker]

Wayne,

I think that if you look far enough back on one of these three forums, you will see that Jim Hatt and I both wanted to get the adhesive tested a long time ago, but were told the museum only displayed the stone maps, and felt it was not up to them to test the stones for authenticity. So, any thoughts of testing the glue on the heart insert was quashed.

Mike

Hi Mike:

I'm familiar with the episode, and Jim and I discussed the controversy on one of the occasions where I was visiting him.
In my own opinion, I did not consider it likely that the museum board would agree to any testing because of their references ( other than Phil of course) to the stones as being probable fakes, and also because they did not own them in the first place. They are on permanent loan insofar as I know. Thus, it would be a no win situation for the museum regardless of the way the test turned out. Jim suspected other motives, including a wish to see the pro=con controversy continue.

Joe:

there was also a claim that some kid had dropped and broken the heart stone while it was on display by the AMMM at a local gem and rock show some years ago.
Just anther bit of chaff to sort through I guess, but obviously based on no knowledge, or a cursory examination of the bumper photo.
It will thus make it even more interesting to see the "other" bumper photos which Ryan has mentioned.

Regards:Wayne

 

[cactusjumper]

Wayne,

Good post.

Personally, I haven't felt too upset over the recent revelations. That's because I have always maintained that the stones could be a hoax. Now that the background stories of the family have come out, along with a few of their......warts, I believe the Stone Maps were reverse engineered by someone who knew the mountains very well. It appears that Travis had such friends in Apache Junction which just adds a little more weight to that theory.

I don't see any reason for Travis creating the stones, other than to make money, in some fashion and at some time in the future. The final nail in that coffin would be some relationship between the two Peg Leg's. Were they the same man? Smith was a notorious liar. As you know, I don't have much confidence in treasure hunters with criminal backgrounds or proven liars. Not to say it isn't possible they had the clues to vast treasures, just that it raises a red flag for me.

To be truthful, if I were still interested in following the Stone Map Trail and able to, I would most likely be moving on to something else......Like the caves of gold bars.

Hope you have a great 2016.

Take care,

Joe

 

[cactusjumper]

Hi Mike:

I'm familiar with the episode, and Jim and I discussed the controversy on one of the occasions where I was visiting him.
In my own opinion, I did not consider it likely that the museum board would agree to any testing because of their references ( other than Phil of course) to the stones as being probable fakes, and also because they did not own them in the first place. They are on permanent loan insofar as I know. Thus, it would be a no win situation for the museum regardless of the way the test turned out. Jim suspected other motives, including a wish to see the pro=con controversy continue.

Joe:

there was also a claim that some kid had dropped and broken the heart stone while it was on display by the AMMM at a local gem and rock show some years ago.
Just anther bit of chaff to sort through I guess, but obviously based on no knowledge, or a cursory examination of the bumper photo.
It will thus make it even more interesting to see the "other" bumper photos which Ryan has mentioned.

Regards:Wayne

Wayne,

Believe that kid was related to Bob Ward. Seems like he has turned up at the Rendezvous of late. If that's true, we have someone else spinning themselves into the legends. Just what we need, another "Hell I Was There" player. I know some folks like that in the mix, but I do question their motives.

Take care,

Joe

 

[azdave35]

"As you know, I don't have much confidence in treasure hunters with criminal backgrounds or proven liars. "

joe...you have just weeded out 90% of the ldm hunters....lol

 

[cactusjumper]

"As you know, I don't have much confidence in treasure hunters with criminal backgrounds or proven liars. "

joe...you have just weeded out 90% of the ldm hunters....lol

Dave,

No one is more aware of that than I am.

Take care,

Joe

 

[sdcfia]

Wayne,

Good post.

Personally, I haven't felt too upset over the recent revelations. That's because I have always maintained that the stones could be a hoax. Now that the background stories of the family have come out, along with a few of their......warts, I believe the Stone Maps were reverse engineered by someone who knew the mountains very well. It appears that Travis had such friends in Apache Junction which just adds a little more weight to that theory.

I don't see any reason for Travis creating the stones, other than to make money, in some fashion and at some time in the future. The final nail in that coffin would be some relationship between the two Peg Leg's. Were they the same man? Smith was a notorious liar. As you know, I don't have much confidence in treasure hunters with criminal backgrounds or proven liars. Not to say it isn't possible they had the clues to vast treasures, just that it raises a red flag for me.

To be truthful, if I were still interested in following the Stone Map Trail and able to, I would most likely be moving on to something else......Like the caves of gold bars.

Hope you have a great 2016.

Take care,

Joe

I think few observers are shocked to hear it alleged that the "Peralta stone maps" were an elaborate diversion created by Travis Tumlinson. It's claimed that Travis carved and revealed the stones in order to draw attention away from his apparently failed attempts to solve some sort of treasure map that was originally possessed by Pegleg Tumlinson. We must also infer that Pegleg apparently also failed to solve the mystery. Whatever Pegleg's story is, and whatever his information was, is probably not going to surface, IMO, although I hope I'm wrong.

The lives of Pegleg Smith (the trapper and alleged discoverer of gold in the CA desert) and Pegleg Tumlinson (the Civil War Texan) are both adequately documented, IMO, and their lives were separated in years by a full generation or more. It's not likely they were the same person, IMO.

Since you brought it up, I must say that the only tale out of the many Superstitions legends that I would like to know more about, and which would prompt me to invest time, is the LaFrance story. Can you provide an opinion about the best available source of information for it? "Caves of gold bars", along with "mines with iron doors", "Mexicans with maps" and other storylines are a surprisingly common thread connectinga surprising number of "unsolved" treasure legends.

 

[azdave35]

I think few observers are shocked to hear it alleged that the "Peralta stone maps" were an elaborate diversion created by Travis Tumlinson. It's claimed that Travis carved and revealed the stones in order to draw attention away from his apparently failed attempts to solve some sort of treasure map that was originally possessed by Pegleg Tumlinson. We must also infer that Pegleg apparently also failed to solve the mystery. Whatever Pegleg's story is, and whatever his information was, is probably not going to surface, IMO, although I hope I'm wrong.

The lives of Pegleg Smith (the trapper and alleged discoverer of gold in the CA desert) and Pegleg Tumlinson (the Civil War Texan) are both adequately documented, IMO, and their lives were separated in years by a full generation or more. It's not likely they were the same person, IMO.

Since you brought it up, I must say that the only tale out of the many Superstitions legends that I would like to know more about, and which would prompt me to invest time, is the LaFrance story. Can you provide an opinion about the best available source of information for it? "Caves of gold bars", along with "mines with iron doors", "Mexicans with maps" and other storylines are a surprisingly common thread connectinga surprising number of "unsolved" treasure legends.

lol..if anyone had any info on the location of la france's cave of bars they wouldnt be sharing it on here...the truth is that nobody really knows where the cave of bars is...and to add to the mystery there are tales of other caves like lafrance's in the supers ..i am fairly certain the cave exists because i know a man that has seen one of the bars...i know half a dozen men that are currently looking for the cave and they are all looking in different places...that should tell you all you need to know

 

[somehiker]

Well guys. While evidence of criminal behavior and lies having been told should indeed raise the red flag, the circumstance may allow for a certain amount of trust in at least parts of any given treasure story. Otherwise we would have to ignore intriguing stories LIKE the pit mine and the Harry France "cave of gold bars" tales. BTW, I use the France spelling because those we know were friends and searched for it with him spelled it that way. I remember the reason for the altered spelling as well, but it's a part of Joe's theory of a DeGrazia connection which I don't see, so I'll leave it at that.
Bob Brady was one of the others who claimed to have found a very similar cave stacked with bullion, and of course there is also the Geronimo treasure cave story to consider, along with that of a solid gold statue of a priest in a cave with an opening above, through which the witness fell...breaking his leg in the process...AND dying of that and other injuries/exposure before he could lead his rescuers back to the hole. That's the one which I kinda like, except I think it's a statue of the founder of an order, saintly of course, rather than merely a priest.
Then of course, there was the "legal" Feldman project, with a goal of recovering what was thought to be a stack of bullion. We still don't know for sure how that one turned out, but you Dave, did mention a couple of days ago as I recall, a successful outcome for and by a number of individuals that you could name, in a very similar situation. Were these folks among the half dozen you speak of now ?

 

[azdave35]

lol..that is a silly question to ask on a public forum

 

[cactusjumper]

I think few observers are shocked to hear it alleged that the "Peralta stone maps" were an elaborate diversion created by Travis Tumlinson. It's claimed that Travis carved and revealed the stones in order to draw attention away from his apparently failed attempts to solve some sort of treasure map that was originally possessed by Pegleg Tumlinson. We must also infer that Pegleg apparently also failed to solve the mystery. Whatever Pegleg's story is, and whatever his information was, is probably not going to surface, IMO, although I hope I'm wrong.

The lives of Pegleg Smith (the trapper and alleged discoverer of gold in the CA desert) and Pegleg Tumlinson (the Civil War Texan) are both adequately documented, IMO, and their lives were separated in years by a full generation or more. It's not likely they were the same person, IMO.

Since you brought it up, I must say that the only tale out of the many Superstitions legends that I would like to know more about, and which would prompt me to invest time, is the LaFrance story. Can you provide an opinion about the best available source of information for it? "Caves of gold bars", along with "mines with iron doors", "Mexicans with maps" and other storylines are a surprisingly common thread connectinga surprising number of "unsolved" treasure legends.

Steve,

The story in Bob Wards book is pretty much what Harry told the folks that were involved in the search. I have that directly from Tracy Hawkins, on tape. That story was also corroborated by personal conversations with my Uncle, Chuck Ribaudo, Ernie Provence and Dale Howard, who were all involved in the search. I believe all of those men held the gold bar in their hands.

For me, if you follow the directions exactly, you end up in Little Boulder Canyon and eventually on the ridge between East and West Boulder Canyons. From there he must have turned west on the ridge of the main mountain. Tracy told me they took Harry up there and he showed them the outcropping of rock where he built a fire for the night. They saw the remains of that campfire.

As I have said many times, I believe this story 100% minus a few details that I believe Harry purposely left out. That was what I was primarily searching for, but I also studied the other stories. I don't know for a fact, but believe those gold bars are long gone.

As a side note to that story, I have one of Ted DeGrazia's books inscribed to "The LaFrance Family". Try to find a Harry LaFrance in Arizona. The only one I found was, I believe, around 1935 from a census in Tucson, home of DeGrazia. Believe he was a dry goods salesman and was staying in a hotel. Ted's father was a miner in Morenci and a dry goods salesman would certainly have visited the company store there.

I think it's a pretty interesting story, but I'm the only one telling most of it. For that reason alone, many here would doubt it.

Good luck,

Joe

 

[Old]

Hal, you asked about other rocks the family may have. I will tell you what I know that isn't much and is basically worthless. Didn't want you to think I was avoiding your question.

I have heard of other "rocks" in the possession of the family. These are rocks other than the Spanish ship, which we already know about. Its a large family spread over a couple of states. I don't know who has them or where they are located. Nor do I know what they depict. So you see, I'm not your best source of information. I know what I'd LIKE them to be, but we will have to wait and see.

Lynda

 

[azdave35]

lol..if anyone had any info on the location of la france's cave of bars they wouldnt be sharing it on here...the truth is that nobody really knows where the cave of bars is...and to add to the mystery there are tales of other caves like lafrance's in the supers ..i am fairly certain the cave exists because i know a man that has seen one of the bars...i know half a dozen men that are currently looking for the cave and they are all looking in different places...that should tell you all you need to know

matter of fact about ten years ago joe ribaudo took me and a few other friends over to tracy hawkins house and he told us the story of the cave of gold bars as he remembered it..also he told of having one of the bars in his hand...we all shook the hand of the man that held the gold bar...lol...i have no reason to doubt tracy's story then or now

 

[sdcfia]

lol..if anyone had any info on the location of la france's cave of bars they wouldnt be sharing it on here...the truth is that nobody really knows where the cave of bars is...and to add to the mystery there are tales of other caves like lafrance's in the supers ..i am fairly certain the cave exists because i know a man that has seen one of the bars...i know half a dozen men that are currently looking for the cave and they are all looking in different places...that should tell you all you need to know

Dave, I'm not asking where the cave is supposed to be or even where folks have looked or are looking. What I'd like to know is who LaFrance (France) was, what his history was, how he supposedly obtained his information, when and from whom. Also, who, when and why he passed on what he knew to others. And, since you mentioned other such caves, when did this other info come to light and who released it?

 

[cactusjumper]

Well guys. While evidence of criminal behavior and lies having been told should indeed raise the red flag, the circumstance may allow for a certain amount of trust in at least parts of any given treasure story. Otherwise we would have to ignore intriguing stories LIKE the pit mine and the Harry France "cave of gold bars" tales. BTW, I use the France spelling because those we know were friends and searched for it with him spelled it that way. I remember the reason for the altered spelling as well, but it's a part of Joe's theory of a DeGrazia connection which I don't see, so I'll leave it at that.
Bob Brady was one of the others who claimed to have found a very similar cave stacked with bullion, and of course there is also the Geronimo treasure cave story to consider, along with that of a solid gold statue of a priest in a cave with an opening above, through which the witness fell...breaking his leg in the process...AND dying of that and other injuries/exposure before he could lead his rescuers back to the hole. That's the one which I kinda like, except I think it's a statue of the founder of an order, saintly of course, rather than merely a priest.
Then of course, there was the "legal" Feldman project, with a goal of recovering what was thought to be a stack of bullion. We still don't know for sure how that one turned out, but you Dave, did mention a couple of days ago as I recall, a successful outcome for and by a number of individuals that you could name, in a very similar situation. Were these folks among the half dozen you speak of now ?

Wayne,

I agree that Harry's last name was France, but I know he used LaFrance with Chuck and others. That's the name Chuck told me, and I have one of Chuck's old Topo's with the Harry LaFrance signature on the back, along with the phone number of the parts store Tracy worked at. Don't know how to explain the LaFrance name, but I'm sure it was something he used. It was many years later that I came across the DeGrazia book and well after I had voiced my theory that Ted was involved in the Stone Maps. So in your assertion that "it's part of Joe's theory of a DeGrazia connection" you are in left field. There are a number of reasons for my theory and that one came in very late.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Joe, Reavis, Reavvis, Reavis! , or if you prefer

 

[somehiker]

lol..that is a silly question to ask on a public forum

Ha.....like all the others, you will tell us everything....eventually

Unless you like it of course.....