Stone Charts of the Superstitions

[Cubfan64]

Cubfan64,
You used the word "tale" to describe the story that Joe has posted a link to. Besides the obvious incorrect dating of events, what is it that makes this story so unbelievable to you? I am assuming your use of the word "tale" to describe this story means that you don't give it much credence. If that is correct, I will tell you that while the story may seem less then believable, there is a great deal of evidence to suggest that an important part of that story is actually correct.

The answer to the question "just who done it?" is the treasure. This story or tale is worth considering.

On another note, I remember reading that you recently paid a visit to the Tumlinson site (where the stone were reported to be found). Could you tell me if Weavers Needle is visible from that location? Your help is appreciated.

Hi Hal - answering your last question first, yes Weaver's Needle can be seen from where Tumlinson supposedly found the stone maps. It doesn't stand out like a sore thumb, but if you know what you're looking for you can see it. I didn't take any photos when I was out there, but Somehiker might have.

As far as the story/tale goes in the link Joe posted, it just smacks of a "tall tale" to me is all. First of all, I don't find it odd at all for a stranger to feel unwelcome in a small town that isn't a tourist town. The writer makes it seem extremely dramatic and exaggerated - always a warning sign to me. Then there's the cliche' of the old man who decides for some unknown reason to confide a huge conspiracy secret to this stranger he's never met before under the pretense of "I could tell you something but you'd never believe it."

Then you get to the heart of the story where a multitude of things are claimed that if true would have necessitated a large number of people to keep secret - the odds of that happening at least to me are very very small. Waltz had a home outside of Phoenix that nobody there knew about (despite numerous people trying to follow him into the mountains over time?) Joseph Smith of Mormon fame was a friend of Waltz and used Waltz's gold to found his churches? This "secret society" of 12 men found all 18 of the Peralta Mines and obviously worked them, and yet nobody else ever found out about that? There were more than a few other people during that time frame working in the mountains in that area filing mine claims - nobody other than the 12 secret members ever found out about 18 of the "richest mines in the world" being found and worked there? I find that hard to believe as well. The 18 mines have been worked IN SECRET for almost 100 years? Again - highly unlikely imho.

Finally, we have the author leaving Queen Valley and as he drives away, everyone he sees stops what they're doing or slows down and watches him closely - golfers, groundskeepers, people in cars, etc...

It just seems to me that this is nothing more than a typical "fable" made up to appear dramatic, secret and conspiratorial for no other reason than entertainment.

I would love to be wrong.

Respectfully, Cubfan64

 

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[Hal Croves]

Cubfan64,
I just want to make it clear to you and to the readers of this thread that I do not believe that story to be entirely true. The discerning reader/researcher should be aware of the obvious problems. A quick look at the US census for Queen Valley will show a population comprised of 55% Catholic, 22% "Other" & 10% LDS. Ten percent! Hardly enough to account for an LDS Queen Valley conspiracy. And then there is the average median income of $49,325.... not much better then Arizona's total median income of $48,745. So, the facts simply don't support many of the details told. I am not saying that the author is intentionally misleading the reader, only that the story told to him is inconsistent with the facts. You made some excellent points in your reply (about human nature) and I would say that most of your observations are spot on, however it would be a mistake to dismiss the group in question.

Just to be clear the story does not claim that Waltz was friends with the founder of the Mormon church, Joseph Smith Jr.. (Smith was executed in 1844) it only makes note of Waltz's relationship with someone he knew as "JS". There is a remote chance that "JS" could have been Joseph Smith III, but that is unlikely as J. Smith III broke away from B. Young and the Salt Lake City Mormons. Arizona's Mormon settlers were loyal to Young.

It is a sensitive thing to write about, however if you are looking for truths (illusive when the stone charts are concerned) then spend some time researching this group. Again thank you for confirming the view of Weavers from the site. Travis pulled off to get a better view of Weavers from that location... it just seems an odd place to search for a "better" view of Weavers.

 

[cactusjumper]

Hal,

I have researched the Mormon history, and religion, seven ways from Sunday. Why don't you just cut to the chase and just tell us what we should be looking for. There is nothing "sensitive" that has not been exposed already, as far as I know.

There are many Mormon connections to the Superstition Mountains and the LDM, but I have serious doubts that any of them go back to the church itself.

One of my expeditions into Little Boulder Canyon had three LDS in the team.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Cubfan64]

Again thank you for confirming the view of Weavers from the site. Travis pulled off to get a better view of Weavers from that location... it just seems an odd place to search for a "better" view of Weavers.

Hal - I would agree that pulling over at that spot for a better view of Weaver's Needle wouldn't make much sense - at least to me from what I saw. There are other versions of Travis' story too - car problems and pulling over to get water from the creek for his radiator as well as pulling over for a short picnic and/or to look for arrowheads.

Who knows what the real truth was.

Just as an aside, I had heard a story a few years ago about how Queen Valley became a winter "haven" for members of organized crime at one point in history. Perhaps that's why people are wary of outsiders - maybe some of the families are still there.

 

[Hal Croves]

cactusjumper,
You have been quite generous in sharing information on this site, something I do appreciate and will remember. Writing about the LDS is a sensitive issue (for me anyway)... as you know that group has been persecuted since its inception. So, connecting them to this mystery requires some level of care and repeated fact checking. If you have studied their history to the extent that you describe, then you must be aware of their connection to the Order of Jesuits and how (in their search for a homeland) they came to learn about the great Salt Lake Valley.

What to look for? Begin at the entrance to Emigration Canyon. There is a monument dedicated to the early pioneers of the territory. On top of that monument, cast in bronze are three figures. Two of these men are well known to history, Bonneville and Fremont. The third is a Jesuit priest. Father De Smet. It seems odd, finding a Jesuit remembered this way on a monument commemorating the Mormon settlement of Utah. That is until you learn that the Mormons were close to moving south, to Texas (at the request of Houston) in an effort to create a living buffer between the Texans and Mexico. A few Mormons did make their way to Texas (unsuccessfully) however B. Young had a last minute change of heart and the valley of the great Salt Lake was chosen. Young made his decision (in part) based on the description of the area told to him by Father De Smet... when they met at Winter Quarters in 1846. Young was also given a confidential government map of the GSLV... illegally by the way.

If you believe (as I do) that the Jesuits made their way into the Superstitions, then it is not unreasonable to imagine a connection/relationship between the leaders of the LDS and the Jesuits. OK, it is certainly not a smoking gun but the further one digs into this line of thinking the more it becomes obvious that the two groups are involved. The relationship would have been an exclusive one involving only the most trusted leaders of the LDS.

This is just the tip of the iceberg. The Mormon relationship with the Apache & Navajo of Arizona is well documented and at times controversial. Generals McDowell & Willcox were both concerned about an Indian uprising instigated by Mormon settlers. What I find most amazing is the relationship between the Mormons and the name La Barge, which we all know is an important landmark in the Superstitions. So, in answering your question as to where to look... don't dismiss a Mormon role in the creation of the stone charts. I doubted the connection until one of the members here on this site urged me to have a second look at that group. Someone that I believe we both trust. Take a look at the Priest stone. Just above the 1847 date is another date, faint but still visible. To me it reads 1876, which is an important date in the Mormon exploration of Arizona.

I would like to hear more about your trek into the Superstitions with LDS members if you are wiling to share.

Cubfan64,
Yes, not much about the Tumlinson discovery tale is believable. I have been looking for Travis's connection to the LDS... needless to say I am still searching.

 

[Hal Croves]

Cubfan64,
Here is the view from what I believe to be Tumlinson's discovery site. It is not a substitute for ground based photography, but it gives a good idea of the difficulty involved in seeing Weaver's Needle... from that particular location. Complicating things is the fact that there seems to be several possible discovery sites.

View attachment 599517​

 

[Cubfan64]

Hal - that's roughly the way I remember the view of Weaver's Needle from the supposed Tumlinson site on Queen Creek, although I think it was a little more visible than that - not much, but from slightly different angles you could pick it out a bit better.

 

[cactusjumper]

Hal,

As I have mentioned a number of times before, the most prominent peak in the range.......when viewed from the south, is pictured in your post. If you change your perspective of the "Pichaco" noted on many LDM maps, away from Weaver's Needle and to that peak, it MAY change your conclusions.

Do you know what that peak is?

Good luck,

Joe

 

[cactusjumper]

Hal,

It's nice that the Mormon's have a statue of Father De Smet, but they are way off base if they use that story to suggest some kind of Jesuit/Mormon connection. There is no such connection as you suggest. The facts are, that he was over zealous in his opposition to the Mormon Church and its entire history.

This letter is an example of how he felt:

http://www.3rd1000.com/history3/events/mormons.htm

The fact that I have Mormons in my family and that there were Mormons in my expedition, has nothing to do with any connection between the church, Jacob Waltz or the LDM.

This will be my last post concerning LDS. If you want to carry on a private conversation, I have no objections.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Hal Croves]

cactusjumper,
Honestly, I am a bit confused by your post. Is this the "Picacho" that you are pointing me towards? How would that change my opinion? Sorry to be so dense... I don't know the name of this peak... if this is the one you are writing about.

View attachment 599634​

 

[somehiker]

Hal:

I have had a series of photos of the discovery site up for some time here (http://www.thelostdutchmangoldmine.com/gallery2/v/somespics/2010/)
If you have any questions,you may copy any in that album and use them here....with credit of course.
There is one with Weaver's Needle visible,shot from the flat area beside the small hill.
That hill,probably excavated dirt from when the road was first graded down for the bridge,is the only "small rise" in the area.
Just as Tumlinson described in his own account of the discovery of the H/P stone,one would have to climb that rise to get a (slightly) better view of the needle.

"Picacho",although used as Joe says on several other maps,does not appear as a word on any of the Stone Maps,nor is "Superstition Peak" mentioned by Tumlinson in his account.Therefore I doubt that Travis meant anything other than Weaver's Needle when he said he climbed the hill for a better look at the needle.

There were several holes dug some time ago,two near the river bank/cliff about grave-size and depth in cemented alluvial sand and gravel.
Three others have been excavated in looser ground,one of which has a mature grove of mesquite growing in the dirt banks from the excavation.Paul obtained gps readings for each of the holes and the pattern is recognizable.
With the lay of the land,the view of the needle,the small hill,the excavations...and the presence of arrowheads on site all matching the account given by Tumlinson himself,I see no reason to suspect a different site.I myself,will not waste my time looking elsewhere for further evidence.

If any part of Tumlinson's account is not fully truthful,it could be the "arrowhead excuse".
Even though as I stated ,arrowheads are present,it has occurred to me that Travis may have been prepared to say "just looking for arrowheads" if someone had come along and inquired as to what he was searching for.
If someone were to ask me the same question,nowadays,I would probably say shell casings or pop cans/ bottles.

Regards:SH.

 

[Hal Croves]

cactusjumper,
It would appear that the Mormon topic is a sensitive one after all... based on your response. The link that you posted was not an attack on the Mormons, but simply one mans opinion of that group based on his understanding of history and the writings of others. It may not be entirely fair to describe Father De Smet as "overzealous in his opposition to the Mormon Church and its entire history" simply because much of what we read in that letter is true. I am not defending De Smet... anyone familiar with his roll in American history will know of his transgressions, to put it kindly. I simply want readers to be aware of both side of history. That Mormon monument is quite real and De Smet was revered by those who built it. To support your claims, this would need to be explained, not dismissed. Here is an example of De Smet's perception of Brigham Young, base on their meeting and described in a letter dated 1 January 1847:

"I was presented to their president, Mr Young, an affable and very polite gentleman. He pressed me earnestly to remain a few days, an invitation which my limited time did not permit me to accept. The unheard of persecutions and atrocious sufferings endured by this unhappy people, will one day probably form a prominent part of the history of the Far West".

De Smet advised Young to go to the Great Valley of the Salt Lake and he even gave Young a map of the area. "Go there, you will be free to worship God after your own conscience." The influence of this one Jesuit on the Mormon decision to emigrate west is explained here in a 1851 letter to De Smet's nephew:

"They asked me a thousand questions about the regions I had explored and the spot which I have just described to you (the Great Salt Lake Valley) pleased them greatly from the account I gave of it. Was that what determined them? I would not dare to assert it. They are there."

I don't doubt that you have an excellent understanding of the Mormon belief system and their history. I also only asked to hear about your adventure into Little Boulder Canyon because you mentioned it and like most of what you write, it would be worth reading. I now understand your reluctance to post any more about the LDS. That is unfortunate.

somehiker,
I am going to agree with you on this one. As I wrote in my post, that site seems to be correct. For me it was the reasoning behind Travis's stop that I questioned... to obtain a better view of Weaver's Needle? Perhaps one reason is as good as another when involved in treasure hunting. Also, thank you for the permission to re-post your work! Do you know if that site is privately owned or who owns it? Getting a backside full of buckshot would be a terrible way to end my next trip to AZ... especially over arrowheads, shell casings and soda cans

I just finished looking at your photographs of the site. One thing that is strange is the density of the soil there. It appears to be tightly packed and full of rock. I am having a hard time envisioning the tablets sinking into that mix. I guess its time to reread the Tumlinson discovery story. Thanks again for providing the link.

View attachment 599702​

Photograph courtesy of somehiker.​

 

[somehiker]

Hal:

I think that there is enough circumstantial evidence,both testimonial and on-site physical to suggest Tumlinson had information which led him to search the area.
It is my belief he had obtained,likely from his grandfather's collection,documents which detailed the location and contents of a number of caches.
Obviously the landscape had changed somewhat,with a two lane highway having bisected the site...(now a divided four lane).
It is likely IMO,that during the grading necessary for the bridge over Queen Creek,the cache containing the H/P Stone was accidentally (and unnoticed by the construction crew) excavated and the stone simply wound up as part of the mound of material to the east of the roadbed.The scarring visible on the stone may have occurred at this time.

The area is BLM land leased for cattle grazing and bee keeping.The small white squares visible in sat views are bee hives.
As such,if you plan to spend much time there,you should probably obtain a hiking permit from the BLM.
I doubt that it will be used for grazing this season,as it is all bare ground due to a relatively recent grass fire.
The upper flats,where the site is located,is an ancient alluvial wash.This aggregate,at least to a depth of six feet as shown in the photo, is like solid concrete.
In the two deep holes,the sides remain perpendicular,despite many years of monsoon rains.
Whoever did the digging was very determined to find whatever was down there.
Or...the digging was easier because the ground has been previously disturbed,and the fill was looser.
There is no way IMO that any of the stones settled to the depth from which they were recovered.

Regards:SH.

 

[Springfield]

.....The area is BLM land leased for cattle grazing and bee keeping.The small white squares visible in sat views are bee hives.......
Regards:SH.

Now that's interesting, hiker. Fringe treasure researchers are well aware that the beehive is an important KGC symbol, as it also is, of course, to the Mormons. And now, in their shadow, the Tumlinson stones. Just another delicious coincidence I guess. Nothing happening here - just keep moving.

 

[somehiker]

.....The area is BLM land leased for cattle grazing and bee keeping.The small white squares visible in sat views are bee hives.......
Regards:SH.

Now that's interesting, hiker. Fringe treasure researchers are well aware that the beehive is an important KGC symbol, as it also is, of course, to the Mormons. And now, in their shadow, the Tumlinson stones. Just another delicious coincidence I guess. Nothing happening here - just keep moving.

Well Springy.

I don't think the KGC done it.
And,as Del Gue once said..."Tweren't Mormons"

But I don't mess with bees.

 

[EE THr]

SH---

If those holes had the Stones in them, they seem to eliminate the idea that, on return to the site, the other three pieces were found by just walking around kicking the sand or poking around. Well, I guess if a stone was found on or near the surface, someone might have continued digging in hopes of finding another below it. But then there should have been a big hole where the triangular stone was set, too, if that reasoning was used (and it's still in it's original spot).

I agree that, unless there was softer fill, it would take some very convincing evidence for someone to dig in that stuff!

How far apart are the holes?

 

[cactusjumper]

Hal,

In your picture, Superstition Peak is to the left of Weaver's Needle. From the south, it also looks like a sombrero. It is the tallest peak visible. Once you look at Superstition Peak as the "Picacho" in many of the old LDM maps, many things start falling into place.

IMHO, while not that obvious, Superstition Peak is shown on the Stone Maps. It is the place where the first trail map was drawn from.

Good luck,

Joe

 

[somehiker]

EE:

According to Tumlinson,the H/P Stone was found protruding from the mound.The Trail Stones and Heart Stone was found a short distance away,about 8-10 yards,on the other side of the fence.There is only a small and shallow pit at that location,with dirt piled around it.
The other holes are much larger and up to a hundred yards further east.
They all together form a pattern similar to the 5 dots on the upper left corner of the Horse Map.
There were other items found afterwards,by Robert Tumlinson and others,including the Latin Heart Stone,possibly by digging under markers which matched that pattern.

Regards:SH.

The Stone Maps were found at 1 and 1b

 

[Hal Croves]

somehiker,
If that is the site, then those holes could have been excavated anytime after the stones were found or the story made public. There is no way of knowing. One thing I can tell you is that while the pattern of some of those holes may look similar to those found on the Horse Stone, that site is absolutely not the one represented by the Horse stone. I think that I have been quite open and honest in my understanding of the stones, but if it is at all possible, you will just have to trust me on this one... or not. Either way, the Horse stone for me is the most controversial in the collection and when I can share the actual location, I promise that you and others like you are going to laugh. But the laughter will be short lived once you realize whats been done.

Regarding an LDS involvement....ask yourself this question... who (specifically) drew the 1984 boundary lines for the SWA? OK, the great Morris K. Udall (LDS ) secured passage of the Arizona Wilderness Act of 1984, adding over one million acres of state land, but who drew the lines? This is a very specific question. Watch ur top knot!

cactusjumper,
I am going to have another look at your theory regarding the Superstition peak. Is that the name of the peak that I highlighted in the image above? Thanks!

 

[Springfield]

.... Well Springy.

I don't think the KGC done it.
And,as Del Gue once said..."Tweren't Mormons" ....

You may be right hiker ... and you may be wrong. Remember what else Del said, "Nobody's gone in front of me. Can't say what's happened behind me."