Stone Charts of the Superstitions

[cactusjumper]

Wayne,

I believe I researched the stone house ruins that Hal is talking about, some time ago. It turned out that it was a stage/mail stop and trading post. Greg Davis and I discussed it then. He may have the information where it can be found. My records are buried right now.

If there were a visita there, you would need a Pima village near by or at the location.

Take care,

Joe

 

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[Hal Croves]

cactusjumper
That is fascinating. I read the link to your posts about these symbols. You said that the photograph of the site was taken from the north looking southeast. That would imply that they (the symbols at Twin Butte) were intended to be seen by travelers moving away from the Superstitions, from north to south, however Kenworthy said that they are directions to the lower half of the Superstitions and that the horse was directing the traveler to the right (when facing the symbols), which if you are correct (and I am sure that you are) means that "right" is to the west. So, these symbols were designed to be seen by someone traveling west - just north of these symbols. Is that logical from what you know of the location? San Pedro river to the Gila - west, past the Twin Butte symbols then at some point turning north to the Superstitions.

There are quite a few "treasure" maps of the Superstitions with marked canyons. The names of these canyons obviously have changed over time which adds a layer of confusion. An aerial photograph overlaid with the names used on these "treasure" maps would be useful.

somehiker,
The San Pedro meets the Gila east of that stone house in the image. This is the one featured on the Florence topo. Since you know where the Twin Butte symbols are, do you agree with what I wrote above?

peralta,
There are many explanations of this mystery floating around but so far I like yours the best. Even my own ideas (which are less supernatural) seem dull in comparison. I hope that you are correct.

 

[cactusjumper]

Hal,

If I said that the pictures were taken from the north, looking south, I was mistaken. They are taken from the south, looking north.

I am not a fan of Kenworthy's signs, so whatever he said about the horse means nothing to me. My best guess is that Kenworthy was just guessing about the "King's Code".

I was told that the area was claimed some time ago and is fenced off......? A bulldozer was run through some of the markings. That hillside is visible from the south side of the river, and the trail out of Mexico runs to the west side of
Twin Buttes.

There may have been a visita in that area, but I would need to revisit that research. Franciscan would be more likely than Jesuit, as San Fernando was a popular name for them.

Good luck,

Joe

 

[Hal Croves]

cactusjumper,
I hope that you are wrong about the dozing. It is unbelievable that something like that could still happen to historical treasures. I have a few hours into the search and will get it eventually. There seem to be enough unpaved roads in the area to make it somewhat accessible so I am absolutely going to give it a go when I return... that is IF I locate it in GE

 

[cactusjumper]

Hal,

I have the GPS coordinates for that hill somewhere. If they were not on the computer that got fried, I will find them for you. Otherwise, I will just ask Larry for them.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Cubfan64]

Hal - you said...

Life is so different here on the east-coast... everything is tightly controlled and over regulated (a gun permit for a BB gun?)

Personally I think the main reason if "seems" to be different out west is primarily because there's so much more open space. I think it's just as regulated (in some places even more so) than out east, it's just that those folks who decide they want to break those regulations have an easier time doing it cause there are fewer eyes around to see them.

As far as permits for BB guns go, I know there are definitely some NE states that are restrictive, but I live in NH and was pleasantly amazed at how much less trouble it is purchasing and using a gun here as compared to when I lived in Illinois and Wisconsin. There's a reason the NH motto is "Live Free or Die"

 

[somehiker]

Wayne,

I believe I researched the stone house ruins that Hal is talking about, some time ago. It turned out that it was a stage/mail stop and trading post. Greg Davis and I discussed it then. He may have the information where it can be found. My records are buried right now.

If there were a visita there, you would need a Pima village near by or at the location.

Take care,

Joe

Joe:

While a stage stop is certainly a possibility.I have not been able to find a map showing a stage route passing that location.
As this section of the 1900 Florence topo shows,the proximity of the ruin to the Cochrane Coke Ovens and the wagon roads leading to the river,the kilns and the Silver Bell,as well as ranches in the area suggests a connection to the mining activities.
But 50 years earlier....
There is a description of the area within the account of Doniphan's Expedition 1846-7 by John Taylor Hughes...pg.111
Many ancient ruins are mentioned.
Another in the "Congressional Edition" pg. 595.
And another in "Wagon roads west; a study of Federal road surveys and construction in the trans-Mississippi West, 1846-1869."
By William Turrentine Jackson pg. 21
....all can be viewed in "Google Books".
http://books.google.ca/books?id=Ztm...lowing day,they marched down the Gila&f=false
http://books.google.ca/books?id=DYN...lowing day,they marched down the Gila&f=false
http://books.google.ca/books?id=tE1...lowing day,they marched down the Gila&f=false

Regards:Wayne

 

[Oroblanco]

Hal - just something to consider when making that decision about whether to pack a gun into the Superstitions or not; it is always better to have it and not need it, than to need it and not have it. In the event of an animal attack, the extra weight and nuisance of a firearm could prove to be a matter of life and death.

Having once had such a saloon, where patrons would turn over their weapons on coming in, the effect ought to be reassuring rather than threatening if you think about it. If there were some murdering maniac to enter and try to start killing people to satisfy some maniacal urge, his career would be far more likely to be cut short if other, sane people had ready access to firearms. It is certainly un-nerving to have someone pull a gun on you, but they are more often a protector than a threat to you.

I hope you will decide to take along a firearm for your own protection when you enter the Superstitions, and that you will never have any use for it while there.

Good luck and good hunting Hal and everyone, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco

 

[somehiker]

Joe:

"If there were a visita there, you would need a Pima village near by or at the location."

According to maps both Jesuit in origin and those likely based on Jesuit sources,there were a continuous chain of closely spaced native villages along the banks of both the San Pedro and the Gila River.All the way to the confluence of the Gila and Colorado Rivers.A small number of these same maps,from the early-mid 1700's,also show the location of the other ruins at Twin Buttes as well as "three native villages just to the N/E of Twin Buttes".I'll find that one later and post it.
It doesn't say Pima or Apache,but maybe three villages wouldn't be of much interest to the Jesuits.Perhaps they were to the Franciscans.
Would they..(the Franciscans) build a visita or chapel for spanish miners who may have been working the surrounding mountains ?

"There may have been a visita in that area, but I would need to revisit that research. Franciscan would be more likely than Jesuit, as San Fernando was a popular name for them."

Sounds like the Franciscans were far more industrious and successful in the southwest than the Jesuits.
Is that why the Jesuits were shown the door in 1768 ?
Kino may have done some exploring,but apparently it was the the Franciscans who built the church in Arizona.

Regards:Wayne

 

[Hal Croves]

somehiker,
Look at this enlarged section of the image that you posted. Note the Vestiges D'une Ville which is french for "remains of a city". This shouldn't be Casa Grande because it appears north of the Gila. It seems to be close to Twin Buttes.

View attachment 596362​

 

[cactusjumper]

Hal,

Those ruins are all part of a Stone Age culture, which is not named. When asked, the Pima told the early Jesuits "Moctezuma". I have serious doubts about the Moctezuma referrence.

They were also responsible for many irrigation canales in the area.

I'm at work, so that's all my poor memory can dredge up......without some book help.

If you need more, let me know. It's a very interesting topic.

Take care,

Joe

 

[somehiker]

Hal:
Exactly what I was referring to when I said this:
"A small number of these same maps,from the early-mid 1700's,also show the location of the other ruins at Twin Buttes "
According to the accounts given in the three links I supplied,the ruins were extensive and continuous throughout a wide area.
A large platform mound was also described as being a short distance north of Casa Grande.
I don't know about "stone age"(9000 bce-2000bce),unless the hohokam etc. are classified as such.
That would make these ruins over 4,000 years old...minimum.
Perhaps Joe can supply some reference material concerning these ruins,which describes them in that manner.

Early references by the Pima to "Moctezuma" are usually considered as unreliable by modern historians.
It is likely they also consider most of the oral histories of the native peoples just as unsubstantiated,IMO.

"somehiker,
The San Pedro meets the Gila east of that stone house in the image. This is the one featured on the Florence topo. Since you know where the Twin Butte symbols are, do you agree with what I wrote above?"

Joe (with his correction) is generally correct for some of the photos,but not all I believe.The hill has a dogleg and is part of a larger U-shaped formation.The horse is on the dogleg and along with the heart and "hockey stick" there is a large triangle.
Should be easy to find on foot...even on G/E....with a bulldozer path to follow.Would guess there aren't too many roads by which a dozer could be hauled in.
A claim filing and fencing would indicate the possibility of an important discovery IMO.
Maybe the hill is actually the end of the Stone Map trail.

Regards:SH.

 

[somehiker]

The 1874 map I posted also shows a second "Florence",on the Salt River east of Phoenix.
Florence on the Gila was founded in 1866.
http://southwest.library.arizona.edu/hav6/body.1_div.3.html

 

[cactusjumper]

Wayne,

"A claim filing and fencing would indicate the possibility of an important discovery IMO."

Back in the day, it didn't really indicate much of anything. People had claims all over the Southwest, and especially the Supe's, and all they had were rocks. Two people in my family included. I will allow as how it's a "possibility".

My source is "ARIZONA AS IT WAS". Can't provide the page number as I am at the store. If needed, I will dig up the book.

Take care,

Joe

 

[somehiker]

Wayne,

"A claim filing and fencing would indicate the possibility of an important discovery IMO."

Back in the day, it didn't really indicate much of anything. People had claims all over the Southwest, and especially the Supe's, and all they had were rocks. Two people in my family included. I will allow as how it's a "possibility".

My source is "ARIZONA AS IT WAS". Can't provide the page number as I am at the store. If needed, I will dig up the book.

Take care,

Joe

Joe:

This ain't "back in the day" though.I would suspect that filing a claim,employing a bulldozer and erecting fencing would be a bit more difficult to accomplish these days.Especially where ancient ruins can be found throughout the vicinity.One of the reasons companies like Desert Archaeology Inc. exist.
I checked this site for any information regarding the current status.http://sco.az.gov/website/parcels/viewer.htm
This site shows the location as being on BLM/Bureau of Land Reclamation land.http://www.srnr.arizona.edu/nemo/ch...ddle_gila_final_pdf/Middle Gila Section 4.pdf
Scroll down to fig 4-15 on page 4-29.

Regards:Wayne

 

[cactusjumper]

Wayne,

I don't know the particulars of this specific claim, so I don't have any idea when it was filed. I do know there was no claim when the original pictures I have posted were taken. That would be back in the mid-sixties.

I can assure you that was "back in the day". In that period I know that Black Top Mesa had claims being filed all over the place. They had no ore of value. What they said they had, or what evidence they produced is another matter.

I have never been to the markings down in the Twin Buttes area, so I'm not the person to answer all your questions. From what you have written, I assume you have been there, so you're one up on me.
In this case, I have to rely on others for my information.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Good morning my friends: for the record and a bit of rememberance, there is a large circle up at Tayopa. It is situated on a steep slope on the crest of the ridge between the drainage of the Yaqui and Mayo rivers. so that one coming up the deep barranca can first see it just about where he should turn off on the Tayopa canyon.

It was constructed by simply removing the top soil down to the bedrock base, some 25 meters wide and perhaps a few hundred ft in diameter. It is so large that one standing on it will not even notice it - the Indians in the area still don't know of it.

The circle itself is still basically bare rock, although brush and small trees have now partially covered it. without the map, it would never be noticeable today.

It apparently was used to indicate the turn off to the left to Arisciachi, the main mining camps sites, and also was used to indicate the location of a treasure site.

Don Jose de La Mancha

p.s. want the photo?

 

[Hal Croves]

Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp
YES! Please. A photo would be awesome and very much appreciated. Can the circle be seen using Google Earth?

 

[somehiker]

Hal:
While it doesn't involve oil smoke balloons or fifth column conspirators,you may find this series of articles to be of interest.
Others may as well.
The author,Ron (Eagle) Rousseau,has possibly spent more time in the mountains and discovered more tangible connections to the Stone maps than anyone else.
The articles make no mention or use of google earth,but they do include a number of easily recognizable markings.

Ron (Eagle) Rousseau's Stone Map solution.

http://www.territorialnewspapers.com/archives/13-14.php

March 10, 2010 | Volume 14, No. 5
Pages: 1/4/12/14

April 7, 2010 | Volume 14, No. 7
Pages: 1/10/12

April 21, 2010 | Volume 14, No. 8
Pages: 1/4/8

May 5, 2010 | Volume 14, No. 9
Pages: 1/4/8

Regards:SH.

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Good evening Hal: Of course I will post it, however remember that the crude hand drawn map is only approx since the line up leads to a major treasure site. (sneaky)

The map that I had was quite definite in showing a Sun engraved on a cliff in the general location indicated. However even after three years in investigating, questioning the Indians up there, etc., no-one was able to produce any information, nor could I find it.

I found the site before finding the Sun, then it was a matter of backtracking and serrendipity..

Since I knew where it was supposed to be, I kept investigating That area until one day I was experimenting with breaking one of the Photographs into the primary colors for penetration of vegetation and contrast, when I hit the right combination and there it was, right where it was supposed to be.

Unfortunately I can't find that original photograph, but the posted ones will also show it up clearly.

I hope that this can explain how a Symbol, while huge, can easily be lost or missed.

In this case they merely removed the dirt down to bed rock. Since the Sun was in a shallow arroyo, the water concetrated there, hence the more lush vegetation, most noticeable in the side view.

Ask away if you have any problems, minus of course the location of "X". Remember, these types of markers were not unusal, very effective with minimal work. No need to carve huge monuments.

Incidentally, on the side view you can easily see the curve of the Sun on top and bottom. The more watered vegitation shows up almost as a wall.

Don Jose de La Mancha