The Sombrero Mine

[Clay Diggins]

They don't have a problem with showcasing this history, so why do you?

"History"?
The massacre story is variously portrayed as legend and fable. There is zero verifiable evidence that such a massacre occurred.
If you have evidence of a "massacre" other than the third hand retelling of stories shared here please point us to that evidence.

 

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[JohnWhite]

I wonder IF is supposed to be mapa del desierto instead of mapa del de siertoDoes it make a differenceWho can say for certain

Ed T

 

[Clay Diggins]

I wonder IF is supposed to be mapa del desierto instead of mapa del de siertoDoes it make a differenceWho can say for certain

Ed T

"mapa del desierto" means "desert map".

"mapa del de sierto" is gobbeldygook that means nothing. It looks like whoever made the map doesn't speak Spanish.

"perfil mapa" means "profile map". Not sure why any map would have two titles?

 

[JohnWhite]

"mapa del desierto" means "desert map".

"mapa del de sierto" is gobbeldygook that means nothing. It looks like whoever made the map doesn't speak Spanish.

"perfil mapa" means "profile map". Not sure why any map would have two titles?

De Cierto…Possibly…who knows?I have been to a certain area that I believe is portrayed in the perfil mapa…But it has changed since the mapa was drawn…

Oh…And by the way…It is not located in Arizona…

Ed T

 

[Clay Diggins]

Jeff,
You are 100% correct. Sombrero literally means, hat.
In spanish when the word El is used before Sombrero it highlights a person, place or thing.
So, El Sombrero on a map can mean an actual hat, a hill, butte or mountain, something that resembles a hat, a person wearing a hat, a place called the hat, ... etc.

El Sombrero alone is left up to interpretation and can mean many different things. Only the map maker would know the correct usage of the wording. The most common usage on a map, but not the only usage, would be as a landmark of some sort.

All true.

Can you imagine a reason that many Spanish mining maps have multiple Sombreros called out in the same region?

I'm a cartographer so I already know why the mapmaker would not label each gossan "Hierro Sombrero" but instead shorten that to just Sombrero. That's probably the same reason why many Spanish geologists have now adopted the term "gossan" instead of "Hierro Sombrero".

 

[ancientones]

Who said Sombrero meant mountain, of course it means hat.

jeffhowlett,
Your best bet to learn about what happened here is to read. This Mexican mine, Mexican due to Spanish were long gone, is the rich gold mine of the legend. Apache and others spoke of this mine. I have read the Apache allowed the Mexicans to mine the area as long as they stayed away from this mine-which they didn't. I have read the Apache had to obtain a force large enough to force the miners out, and killed them when they tried to flee. Another version is this 'Mexico' land became US Territory and they had to leave. Regardless, they did not remove the mine signs, another 'factual thing' they did when a mine was cleaned out. Dutchman experts are 2 1/2 miles from Weavers Needle, and none have been this far out, they advise no minable minerals here. They are looking for a mine based on his clues, most hearsay. The Peralta Stones, sketch maps, mule trails, trail markers, signs/symbols on the hillsides-Mexican documentation. The clues told by the Mexican, Apache and others describing this mine, at this site, in detail.
I agree that the who or why or when someone decided to call a hill a hat is not important. Why the Mexican and their history here has no bearing with the Jacob Waltz story on how he found his mine is what should be discussed.

 

[deducer]

"History"?
The massacre story is variously portrayed as legend and fable. There is zero verifiable evidence that such a massacre occurred.
If you have evidence of a "massacre" other than the third hand retelling of stories shared here please point us to that evidence.

I'm not obligated to do anything much less hold you by the hand and explain to you what the literal, textual definition of history is. I'd rather let you be the big fool you are making yourself out to be.

"Variously portrayed as legend and fable," only tells me how little research and homework you literally have done on Superstitions history in general. It's hilarious to see the dunning-kruger effect in full blown mode here right now. It's been quite a while but I am enjoying the entertainment.

Verifiable evidence? Really? You lack contextual comprehension skills as well as the ability to engage in holistic, inclusive interpretation, both critical traits of a good historian. More importantly, you completely whiff on what separates an excellent, ethical historian from a terrible one. A historian declaring inadmissible, any historical events without “verifiable evidence,” would be out on his ass in no time.

Stick to playing with maps, you seem to be better at that.

 

[Matthew Roberts]

El Sombrero on a map could possibly mean a "gossan", as well as several other things. Gossans are not common in geology, most deposits are outcrops but gossans do occur around the Superstitions. The old Wasp mine was opened up in 1982 when John Wilburn noticed a blueish mineral bloom on the surface and in 3 years over 300k in gold was recovered.

And let's not disperage Salvador Delgadilo. I've known Sal for over 45 years. Ive been in the mountains with him and find him to be very forthcoming with his beliefs. He is Mexican and personally knows the Peralta family of Sonora who claim to be the descendants of Peralta miners in Arizona in the mid 1800's. Sal has worked with many old time Dutch hunters, Bob Ward, Chuck Crawford, Al Reser .........

 

[Clay Diggins]

caſa

I'd rather let you be the big fool you are making yourself out to be.

It's hilarious to see the dunning-kruger effect in full blown mode here right now.

You lack contextual comprehension skills as well as the ability to engage in holistic, inclusive interpretation, both critical traits of a good historian. More importantly, you completely whiff on what separates an excellent, ethical historian from a terrible one.

Stick to playing with maps, you seem to be better at that.

Ah - the old Ad Hominem attack. Couldn't get through a single paragraph without a personal insult could you? Not a word in there about the subject being discussed.

In my experience when some people are challenged to produce facts to support their theories and don't have the goods or the character to admit they don't they try to go off subject. I think you just put yourself firmly in that category.

If you can't give a reasoned response just attack the character of the person who you disagree with. Heck just turn the whole topic on it's head and hope you can slip out the door in the resulting fistfight.

Sorry buster but I have a basic rule about discourse on forums. Either you express your beliefs, theories and facts in a civilized manner or you get no more response from me. Take your baseless insults elsewhere.

 

[deducer]

caſa

Ah - the old Ad Hominem attack. Couldn't get through a single paragraph without a personal insult could you? Not a word in there about the subject being discussed.

In my experience when some people are challenged to produce facts to support their theories and don't have the goods or the character to admit they don't they try to go off subject. I think you just put yourself firmly in that category.

If you can't give a reasoned response just attack the character of the person who you disagree with. Heck just turn the whole topic on it's head and hope you can slip out the door in the resulting fistfight.

Sorry buster but I have a basic rule about discourse on forums. Either you express your beliefs, theories and facts in a civilized manner or you get no more response from me. Take your baseless insults elsewhere.

Sorry but you are the one who bungled basic Superstitions history when you barged in here claiming that Trimble talks to Tom Kollenborn who passed away FIVE years ago.

You lost credibility at that point, and your continual attempt to lecture to us what constitutes "history" has pushed this entire discourse way into the realms of the farcical.

So what you perceive as being baseless insults are simple facts. You just aren't any good with history, period.

Stick to maps.

 

[Clay Diggins]

El Sombrero on a map could possibly mean a "gossan", as well as several other things. Gossans are not common in geology, most deposits are outcrops but gossans do occur around the Superstitions. The old Wasp mine was opened up in 1982 when John Wilburn noticed a blueish mineral bloom on the surface and in 3 years over 300k in gold was recovered.

All gossans are outcrops but not all outcrops are gossans. They really aren't that rare in the desert Southwest but there are only a few in the LDM area. Not all gossens have valuable minerals but they are all mineralized.

And let's not disperage Salvador Delgadilo. I've known Sal for over 45 years. Ive been in the mountains with him and find him to be very forthcoming with his beliefs. He is Mexican and personally knows the Peralta family of Sonora who claim to be the descendants of Peralta miners in Arizona in the mid 1800's. Sal has worked with many old time Dutch hunters, Bob Ward, Chuck Crawford, Al Reser .........

I haven't made any comments on Salvador Delgadlio. I did comment on one of the posters claiming they spoke to Salvidor Seraglio. I found it humorous. Seraglio is the Italian word for Harem. Definitely not Spanish. Definitely not Delgadlio.

 

[GreenBranch]

All gossans are outcrops but not all outcrops are gossans. They really aren't that rare in the desert Southwest but there are only a few in the LDM area. Not all gossens have valuable minerals but they are all mineralized.


I haven't made any comments on Salvador Delgadlio. I did comment on one of the posters claiming they spoke to Salvidor Seraglio. I found it humorous. Seraglio is the Italian word for Harem. Definitely not Spanish. Definitely not Delgadlio.

I believe said poster is dyslexic so we should grant him a few typos.

 

[Matthew Roberts]

An outcrop and a gossan are opposites.
An metallic mineral outcrop has visably broken the surface.
A gossan is a cap that covers a metallic mineral deposit giving a clue to what lies below.

 

[Clay Diggins]

An outcrop and a gossan are opposites.
An metallic mineral outcrop has visably broken the surface.
A gossan is a cap that covers a metallic mineral deposit giving a clue to what lies below.

I imagine that's true if you don't consider iron to be a metallic mineral.

Here's what a gossan looks like for all those non miners.

World-class gossans hill above the massive silver-rich zinc-lead-copper deposit at Rajpura-Dariba. In 1977 the site was designated as a “National Geological Monument” by the government of India.

Yep you've seen those before if you have ever traveled in the western states. Now you know what it was!

Technically Matthew is correct. Most of the good mineable minerals are below that big rusty iron cap. The cap itself is rarely mined. But the cap itself usually stands well above the surrounding ground because the Iron minerals the cap is composed of are much more resistant to weathering than the country (local) rock.

Here's a gossan in Australia where the mine owners built their processing plant right on top of the iron hat. Notice how the base color is black from the high iron content but there are areas of reddish rock. The red is the iron breaking down and rusting. Very typical color combinations for a gossan.

 

[jeffhowlett]

I believe said poster is dyslexic so we should grant him a few typos.

I was not going to post again, but yes I am extremely dyslexic, sometimes I will write my name backward and do notice until later. OSU tested me and said I was one worst they had ever tested. When I write for our book I have to reread every paragraph at least three times or I am good at solving off-the-rail puzzles. Because we look at it differently, sometimes backward. This has proven to be the case with maps, and quirky things, I will look at something for months and then it comes to me. Sometimes. Early in life dyslexia can be an insidious and hurtful infliction, only now being understood. However, most dyslexians learn how to use, it changing it from a curse to a gift.

 

[jeffhowlett]

I believe said poster is dyslexic so we should grant him a few typos.

Geez this has to be my last post. Sal and sat over in the corner, of the Ramada sat afternoon, 2015 during the Randezvo. We exchanged phone numbers and Sal had his wife text me because he is old school. We talked about me coming back with my son and hooking up with Sal. We talked in private for about 90 minutes maybe longer. We talked right after Tom Kolenbourn went off about someone having a dog tied up to a bush on a hot day and bringing the dog out of the heat. It was Sal's dog. Anyone that was under the Ramada will remember the incident, I think he was with his daughter who kinda scolded him. To insinuate someone is a liar, for no reason is sad. This sadly seems to happen on this great site. And not knowing someone at all and then making those types of unfunded accusations. Why. Well, Out for another couple of years, good health to everyone. How lucky to be up in the mountains with Sal, lucky you.

 

[JohnWhite]

Ed T🤣

 

[josh711]

What would make the difference? The gold still has the same colour and the same Spanish markings.
There could not exist records of Spanish mining in the Superstitions, but they have mined and stored tons of gold sticks/bars in few mines. Do your own research and don't expect someone to pinpoint it to you as an evidence. You are fishing in very deep waters with a short and thin fishline.

Wanna bet??

 

[markmar]

Wanna bet??

What for would be the bet? Seems like a new method of fishing.

 

[markmar]

I can find no evidence the Spanish ever mined anywhere in the Superstitions. The Spanish kept very good records. Please share your source for this surprising information.

Like Joe Kidd stated