Stone Charts of the Superstitions

Status
Not open for further replies.
Hal:

As I recall,at the time you posted the illustration of the 18th century Jesuit father (with the pointed hat) as part of a claim of Jesuit involvement in the LDM,I commented favourably on your post and asked for the source of the illustration.You ignored the question for some time,and others as well,until pressed on the matter.Only then,did you admit that the hat had been re-done.Photos and other illustrations altered to the degree of that one was,should be identified as such at the time IMO.That,along with wholesale deletion of thread topics and presentation of personal theories as "fact", is the beef in my "stew".

If you find the "aggressive" questioning by some members,including myself, who have spent many days/weeks/months/and years in the mountains,as well as contributing their first hand experience and photos to this website to be objectionable,it's probably because of your lack of same.If you were to go back through the topics,you may notice that we show no quarter to each other's staments and claims.We do after all,regardless of our convictions,also support vigorous debate of each idea or new claims of "I Found IT".
Especially where absolute claims are made,using G/E images as "proof",and further claims of pending publication and publicity are also made.
Peralta seems to understand this,as he has now responded to the question.

I have shared many of my theories on various aspects of the Stone Maps and the challenges faced by any who try for a solution.Where questions have been asked,or doubts raised,I have made my replies as promply as possible.
Much of what I,and others have shared..."here"...within the last year and a half has been deleted by yourself,the author of those now lost topics.
Such tactics,historically,seem to be all too commonly employed by those who come to lecture,rather than present their ideas for discussion.

Because my own solution remains incomplete,with a number of loose ends which need further research,I have not..nor will not..make claims of having found anything other than what I have posted in the form of photos taken in the field or offer opinions based on what I have personally discovered.

"A search for "Mormonism/the spirit world" shows the Mormons to have some interesting beliefs on the subject,and links to your graphic". "Could you share the link to this image? Took me some effort to find that image and it was not online."
I was not the one who posted the illustration.
Is it not you who should provide the source?
That's the was it usually works...or should.

I for example could post an illustration, such as this one, implying possession of proof of a Jesuit treasure,perhaps discovered by shocked Franciscan monks.
By providing my source however,I allow the viewers of my post to read the story for which the graphic was made...for themselves.
It's a good illustration...but it's also good fiction.

http://quod.lib.umich.edu/m/moajrnl/acw8433.1-08.171/5:3?rgn=full+text;view=image

Regards:SH.
 

Amazon Forum Fav 👍

A Handbook of Civil War Bullets and Cartridges - Grab it through Amazon!

Attachments

  • Finding the Treasure.png
    Finding the Treasure.png
    167.1 KB · Views: 887
somehiker,
I think that if possible you should revisit the posting of that first image. I have saved a copy of the threads and your memory is a little more than off. Also, your idea of a "vigorous debate" includes mocking people which brings into question your character more so than any incredible claims of finding treasure or new ways to read a strange map. If you are so upset with what you are reading here, perhaps you should ignore this thread and get back to spending your days/weeks/months and years roaming the mountains. Like most of the "experts" on this site, I am sure that you consider your trail the correct trail. After all, it leads you back to searching year after year.

I have already apologized for pulling down that last thread. As I have explained, I thought it served no function and was becoming a bit nasty at times. The contempt for new ideas that I sometimes read in your posts, and posts of other long time self-proclaimed treasure hunting experts is measurable and telling. Remember, it is a choice to post here.

Regarding your reported discovery of a link to that image I posted. Alright then, I found it in the Library Company of Philadelphia, the archives to be specific. I could not find it online but since you have, please do share your link. Or do you have conditions on sharing that also? I always find it amazing when people come to expect a certain level respect based exclusively on time invested and not on their accomplishments or shared discoveries.

The link that you posted is one to a novel.. a story... with an image of Franciscans. Are you claiming a connection between this image and the Priest stone or just making a point that you know how to find images of robed holy men? Where is part II? I would like to read it.

One last thing. For those of you reading this. Used correctly, Google Earth is an incredible research tool, no matter what the "experts" say. It has limitations, yes, but I think that it will become an essential tool for researchers as the resolution becomes higher. For those of you who don't have access to the Superstitions, a virtual tour is the next best thing. K. Painter showed me a find that can be seen on Google Earth... one that has been shared elsewhere. These symbols are amazing and on the path to my "end of the trail":

 

somehiker,
Thank you for posting that link. Back to the stones. You asked earlier for help in explaining the strange code found at the bottom of the trail stone. I am not sure if you were contacted by anyone via PM, but it seems that no one wants to give it a try here on this thread.

If you or anyone else reading this has repeated my experiment in GE, the answer is there. With Kenworthy's book, TREASURE SIGNS, SYMBOLS, SHADOW & SUN SIGNS
take a look at what you think is a 3 in that formula. That 3 is actually a bird sign. Draw a line with a ruler across the tips of the "wings". The line you draw will have a heading of about 45 or 46 degrees. That puts you on top of the Tunnel symbol found on the heart stone (end of trail). The "circle within a circle" symbol in the formula says "Look for a shaft or tunnel filled with treasure". The same symbol is repeated at the end of the trail, confirming that you are in the correct location. What looks like the number "two" at the beginning many be the distance. The actual distance happens to be about 2 miles (on GE). So, in part it may read "two" (of some measure!) in this direction (bird symbol) the reader will find a tunnel or shaft, (possibly) filled with treasure. I will let you have a go at the rest of the formula, but when the trail maps are superimposed in Google Earth, anyone with Kenworth's book can reason it through. Of course anyone can confirm this with just an image of the trail stones and a ruler.

Repeat my placement of the stones in GE and consider Kenworthy's book. His ideas (I believe) are correct... but I think that he didn't understand how to apply it to the stone charts. To be clear, I honestly do believe that this is the correct reading of the stone charts. What still needs to be answered is the "who" and the "what". I also believe that there are several possible scenarios to address the "who" question, including the Mormons, Freemasons, and the Order of Jesuits. It is simply a matter of dating the stones with science, then narrowing down possible suspects. I hope this happens one day. The "what" is something that I will only believe when I see it for myself. There is evidence of a "what" but not enough to convince anyone who is discerning.

I have a few good memories of that place in your last photograph! The Superstitions are an amazing place.

 

Hal:

I did,now that you mention it,get a pm on the topic.Anonymously though,a first message from "xxxx".
Had an idea that could work and make sense.His idea is one other which would account for the arched pattern of the inscription,the @,and the numbers.
Not necessarily the positioning on the stone or how it relates to the other adjacent markings though,so it may only give a part solution.
His is a different approach than mine,but he may have a theory worth pursuing.

Regards:SH.
 

Attachments

  • insciption 1 7.png
    insciption 1 7.png
    38.3 KB · Views: 666
somehiker,
The video is incredible and from a much simpler time. That location is on my list for 2012 and the three groups I wrote about each have a historical connection to it. Still waiting for Azmula's theft story to fill in some gaps. Azmula, are you out there? Someone removed those circles on the church facade, but if you look at the video (1964) it looks like workers are actually adding this plaster or stucco coating to the church during filming. I wonder if it was determined that the circles were not original which is why they would be removed during renovation. Another mystery. Also, it looks like a circle in a circle but deeper in the video it shows that it is a circle in a circle in a circle. That would change the meaning.


The way that I understand it, the inscription must have been added after the surrounding lines were carved, hence the arch... done to fit the space. But when you begin following Kenworthy's method, the positioning of the individual symbols is intentional.

As it appears on my final placement:

 

Hal:

You will have to explain how the inscription applies to the area,which is very popular amongst both the LDM and the recreational hiking crowds.
I'm not a follower of Kenworthy as to what is found on the stones, and the symbols have not led me to that particular area.

Regards:SH.
 

oK, Along the lines I mentioned!
Trails coming back to this site... I'm reading all the treaties signed between the Creeks, (because my Ark/PA ancestors have the same name) And guess what? Where did my Indian ancestors get paid for a treaty long in the making, but Nov 1839-40 from the 'sub Indian agency' at Council Bluffs. I think my brain is fried from reading all the real names, but one of the big Creek Chiefs was George Stidham. Then he was in Arkansas at the same time that my ggGrandfather showed up there. Oh and they seem to have been born the same year.

But I still can't figure out why they would have chosen different sides in the CW? In 1840 I found a newspaper advert that ggGrandpa put in the Little Rock Papers, stating he was there... and below him is Albert Pike advertising his law practice. This whole thing with the Steam boats is getting stranger too.

The level of detail that I'm now trying to decipher is really crazy, and I don't understand why it is not known in the family. Everything from my gGrandfather refused any of his children any education, even though he was a Dr and a Lawyer, heavy into politics and traveled, then at about 50 he retired to the country, and with his Dad.

Where but in NW Arkansas and became a country Dr, married a girl more than half his age and kept all the children from further schooling and a lot else. No clue why.
Any ideas?
Gossamer/Janiece
 

Gossamer,
If you are writing about "George Washington Stidham", this link my help you understand the Stidham/Pike relationship. http://www.accessgenealogy.com/scri...e=Data&report=SingleArticle&ArticleID=0014018

and more about GWS to strain your eyes over:
http://www.okgenweb.org/~okmcinto/e...mage contents Centinneal Families Stidham.htm

Also seems to be two men by that name in the same time period:
STIDHAM, George W. Stidham (1819 SC-1888) m-M.A. George; 1860 Smith cen p21 (Co G, H, I, Bourland's Regt)
STIDHAM, George Washington Stidham (1817 AL-1891) 5 wives; Chief Justice (Creek Nation, IT CSA)

(because my Ark/PA ancestors have the same name) Creek, another name or Stidham? Sorry but that is unclear. If it is Stidham, then one possible explanation for denying children an education would have been the agricultural demands of running a farm. Just a guess. Sounds like your hooked. NY Times historical database is a great way to spend your free time.
 

The family name is Stidham and yes I know more about GW Stidham Creek Chief than you can imagine! I'm reading congressional documents because I want to understand what was said and when. I misspoke my ggGrandpa was born in 1813 and GW was reportedly born in 1817 (same year of ggGrandmother), there is a strange mystery about my immediate maternal grandparents, though they were well known, my ggGrandpa left PA in 1835-40, showing up in Ft Smith and Little Rock circa 1840. I have most of the pieces and have a guess as to who his parents were, but not the ahha piece yet.
GW Stidham is highly disputed in the Stidham legacy, there is a lot of conflicting info and a group of people that are almost as crazy into the research as I am in the Stidham Society.
I find the info on the Steamboats is fascinating!
What are the odds that the sub agency for the Creek Nation and the Mormons would be in the same place at the same time? And a treaty, then a march across the SW to California? I haven't even started to look into that just yet.
Thank you for the info, I'll let you know if any of it is new. I just think the coincidences in my research and the interest in this line on the forum a strange and marvelous thing, but don't believe in them.
Gossamer/Janiece
 

And just an aside, I've been reading the death notice of the Old West and what a scream, for your reading pleasure.

FISHER, Paul
Killed August 3, 1876
He was shot under the bed of 22 yr. old girl whom he was trying to win. She was related to the saloon keeper “Suicide”.
http://www.nvgenweb.org/lincoln/PDRobits.txt

It was a tough life, and lots of suicides? How do you shoot yourself in the heart and the head? :icon_scratch:
Gossamer/Janiece
 

"It was a tough life, and lots of suicides? How do you shoot yourself in the heart and the head?
Gossamer/Janiece"

Good aim?
 

Gossamer,
"I just think the coincidences in my research and the interest in this line on the forum a strange and marvelous thing, but don't believe in them." I had to ask. Is it that you don't believe in the coincidences that you have uncovered or their connection to what I have written about? The steamboat history is incredible & overwhelming. Captain La Barge seems to have piloted just about everyone up the Missouri including President Lincoln and John James Audubon (not La Barge's favorite passenger).
___________________________

I wanted to thank those of you who have sent me a few kind words of encouragement via email & PM. More than one person has made note of the intentional effort to distract this and other threads away from the locations that I and others have shared. I honestly did not consider it a possibility until reading your messages. What I find most intriguing is the general reaction to my writing about a possible Mormon connection to the stone charts. I honestly don't know who carved the stones. For sure it was done with an intimate knowledge of the Superstitions and an aerial map... but when? That is the most important question. If the maps date to pre-1935, well then we are all going to see a significant change in the historical record. Is it possible (pre-1935). Absolutely, both the balloon and camera were being used after 1839. If the pre-1935 date sounds impossible then I suggest reading up on Dellschau and the mystery of the Sonora Aero Club. Very strange if true.
___________________________

EE Thr
Great observation! Also, I think that you may appreciate this new(ish) book 2011... Traveling from New Spain to Mexico: Mapping Practices of 19th Century Mexico.

lgadbois,
... or two guns and mediocre aim. :) Welcome.
 

Alright, I have been asked to explain the small "M" shape on the Priest Stone. From what I understand it is simply a topographic feature/marker. When positioned in GE as I have done, the "M" on the Priest stone falls on on this feature. It must be similar to a printers registration mark.

Three historical images in GE and a shot of the "M" from the Priest Stone.

 

Hal, I've considered the Mormons connection for a long time, it blows me away that they were paid in Dabloons and the date and timing are just too coincidental, darn there it is again. LOL... The coincidences are what keep me crazy and they keep piling up.

I grew up in Mesa, so I know a lot of Mormons and have a great respect for some of their values and certainly their feeling of community! I have nothing bad to say about them, because that would open a huge can of disrespect and I don't play that way.

I've noticed that depending on the pic, you can see different things in the stone maps, and scratching was intentional but is it relevant or a redirect? Either are possible. I need to go back to the anagram program, but again, I'm trying to learn a language, and I'm not fluent yet.

Very clever EE THr! I read it like 'Suicide.' But that would be a great name for a bartender of that time, but I'd wager it wasn't his name, lol.

Somehiker, I loved that vid you posted!

Stidham update, I went back to the Congressional records and typed in Stedham, sometimes in the documents they spelled it both ways in the same set of documents. Wonder if they paid them twice? But e and i are pretty much interchangeable back then.

Gossamer/Janiece
 

Gossamer,
I was thinking about what you wrote about respect and the Mormons and "nothing bad to say about them." I don't think that it is disrespectful to write about the failures of any religious group. To their credit most individual Mormons do believe in the same values that all faiths consider important. But the origins of the LDS Church are tainted with corruption and half truths. This is just historical fact. We live in a "politically correct" society which unfortunately means that we bite our lips far too often. I don't want to turn this thread into a political forum, but just look at the current Mormon republican hopeful. He is absolutely unelectable. Why? Because of the perception of his faith (which some have described as a cult) but almost no one in the media will say it. It may not be fair or "American" but that is (in large part) his greatest obstacle. I have invested a large amount of my time researching Mormon history. I consider that a sign of respect.

You are right about coincidences. The Superstitions and Mormons have their share of them... I am still searching for a Tumlinson/Mormon connection. I am hopeful that one of the readers here will provide the evidence... either way.
 

For those of you who still check in here... this image is dated 1850 and stylistically I see some similarities in the imagery found on the Horse stone. Also a few of the symbols are repeated on the stone charts. It was done by a map maker/artist who explored the West (including AZ). He was also a Freemason, a Topographer connected to the U.S. military and an employee of the Federal Government... with a few other coincidental connections. If the stones were carved pre-1935, then this artist is certainly worth considering.

 

Status
Not open for further replies.

prospective

⬅️ Previous Thread

not all dutchhunters fail

Next Thread ➡️

Top Member Reactions

Users who are viewing this thread

Total: 3 (members: 0, guests: 3)

Latest Discussions

Back
Top