Season "3" of Curse of Oak Island

[lokiblossom]

Incorrect.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Varangian_Guard

Not only did the Scandinavians make it to the eastern Med, but they were likely there before the Templars were.

You think the Varangian Guard were traders who traveled back and forth to trade goods?

 

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[lokiblossom]

I'd consult that dictionary and look up the meaning of semantics, then.



Incorrect on the latter part. As for the former, how many coconut fibers are there? How many samples have been taken? Were there any other dates? What is the provenance of the samples that were taken? (I'm reminded of the Woods Hole investigation here.)

Remember...assuming that there was no contamination of the samples (highly unlikely for samples recovered from a beach), carbon dating of a coconut tells us when that coconut left the tree. It tells us nothing about what's happened to it since then.



The distribution and origin of the coconut hasn't been definitively settled yet.



There's nothing that ties the Templars to the area either, so it does require some imagination on your part. Them managing to get there is probably the least problematic part of the hypothesis.



If you had read my post correctly, we would be talking about those stones right now. You gave an example of anchoring with stones. I gave one as well. I then went to imply that a stone that's easily moved wouldn't serve as an anchor for the kind of ship needed to cross the Atlantic.



The word you used was, "many."



Were there now? Would you mind naming them and citing sources?



What sort of interaction? I mean, I know and fully understand that they were both in Scotland at the same time, but I want you to take a look at Midlothian, where the Templars were operating out of, and where the Norse settlements were all the way up at the north end. They were in what's today the same country, but they were about 150 miles away from one another as the crow flies, with the journey being significantly longer in reality. Does this mean that they never met? Of course not. Does this mean that they never worked together? No, it doesn't. Let's not pretend that they were next door neighbors though, or that they had anything in common with one another - not language, not customs, not religious beliefs, nothing. Yes, they may have been best friends forever, but it's going to take some work to prove that, as there was little reason for it.

It's a bit over 260 miles from the Faroes to Iceland, but that's me being snippy. I get your point on the distances involved. However - and this is a rather large however - if a fleet set out in late 1307, they picked a bad time of the year to do it. Have you ever been in the North Atlantic during the fall/early winter? There was a reason that the Norse sailed in the summer and wintered over if they couldn't make it back before the weather turned, as the trip across the Atlantic was dangerous enough with favorable weather. Templars may or may not have known about this, but any hired Norse help certainly would have.



Are you referring to the testimony of Jean de Chalons? He'd passed on a story that he'd heard from someone else. Even his interrogators didn't believe him. Was there something else that was documented?

The Woods Hole test was done by Beta Analytic and was correctly done.

As far as the Atlantic Basin it has been settled.

And I said their were also large drilled stones, some are even now under water.

The word many tells you I should know how many?

No, I cannot name them, but commandries tell us Templars were there.

Balantrodoch is at Midlothian, There were over 100 Templar house in Scotland, DNA tells us that a large percentage of Scotland is of Norse descent as well as the Clans of the Western Highlands, where I premise the Templars spent the winter of 1307-1308. There certainly was ample time for interaction between the two groups during the 200 years the Templars were there. As a matter of fact the Norse were still traveling to Greenland in the early 14th century.

The Templar ships left Scotland in 1308 after remaining the winter anchored at Ardchattan Priory. Btw, I have only ever premised a few ships making the crossing, perhaps 3 or 4.

Jean de Chalons had no reason to lie, remember it was under inquisition investigation, and if you wish I can post his actual testimony. The man he named "Gerard de Villers" became the most wanted man in France after his testimony, why would that be if Chalons was not believed?
Cheers, Loki

 

[Smithbrown]

Ummm, there is no such thing as an earl of Shetland. Perhaps you are thinking of the earldom of Orkney ? Unfortunately at the time you are discussing, the earldom was held by the descendants of the earl (or mormaer) of Angus, quite a bit north of Roslin, across two firths. Perhaps you are confusing it with the Sinclair family, who were in Roslin at the time, but were actually Anglo-Norman, not Norse and who eventually became earls of Orkney in the late 14th century.

Oh, and why do you not think that the Knights Hospitallers, Teutonic Knights, not to mention merchants from Venice, Genoa, Byzantium, Barcelona, plus assorted merchants from Cyprus and Arab countries could have carried your coconut fibres to the New World, if the dating is correct...
Cheers
Smithbrown

 

[lokiblossom]

Ummm, there is no such thing as an earl of Shetland. Perhaps you are thinking of the earldom of Orkney ? Unfortunately at the time you are discussing, the earldom was held by the descendants of the earl (or mormaer) of Angus, quite a bit north of Roslin, across two firths. Perhaps you are confusing it with the Sinclair family, who were in Roslin at the time, but were actually Anglo-Norman, not Norse and who eventually became earls of Orkney in the late 14th century.

Oh, and why do you not think that the Knights Hospitallers, Teutonic Knights, not to mention merchants from Venice, Genoa, Byzantium, Barcelona, plus assorted merchants from Cyprus and Arab countries could have carried your coconut fibres to the New World, if the dating is correct...
Cheers
Smithbrown

Yes, I stand corrected, The Orkney's and not the Shetlands, this from my book not yet published chapter IV pg 98;

"In the late 11th century, Magnus, King of Norway, and Edward King of England, agreed that the islands would be controlled by Norway while the mainland would be controlled by Scotland.
This arrangement more or less continued until what is considered to be the end of the Viking age in Scotland, 1266 ad. This, when the son of King Haakon IV of Norway (who died a few months earlier) ceded most of the isles, less Orkney, The Shetlands and also Caithness to Alexander III with the Treaty of Perth. Orkney and the Shetlands continued to be ruled under Norway as autonomous Jarldoms until 1468. Caithness was already being ruled as part of Scotland since 1379.... between 1236 and 1370 Orkney and Caithness were ruled by the Angus Scottish Earls but still under the Norwegian Crown, and by 1379 the Earldom of Orkney without Caithness was granted to Henry Sinclair."

if you find any corrections let me know, I have corrected some of my writing on Charing Cross because of our earlier discussion.

Any of them could have but we don't have a mystery with Knights and ships leaving France under duress with those groups(threat of arrest) and none of them were known to be excavating in the old Temple area looking for religious artifacts.
Cheers, Loki

 

[Smithbrown]

There was no Norse earl based in Roslin in 1300. Agreed?

 

[lokiblossom]

There was no Norse earl based in Roslin in 1300. Agreed?

Agreed!
My original point was that in 1307 there were some 100 Templar houses in Scotland, and in the Western Highlands there was Norse descent among the major clans, which would allow for Templar, Norse interaction. I lost tract of that in this discussion.
Cheers, Loki

 

[Charlie P. (NY)]

The Woods Hole test was done by Beta Analytic and was correctly done.

It was my understanding the samples were presented to them. Not taken by them or collected by properly trained technicians or archaeologists/biologists.


But even if correct and well dates it just proves some old fibers were found at Oak Island. So the chance exists there may be MORE old coconut fibers on site, and that's about it.

 

[lokiblossom]

It was my understanding the samples were presented to them. Not taken by them or collected by properly trained technicians or archaeologists/biologists.


But even if correct and well dates it just proves some old fibers were found at Oak Island. So the chance exists there may be MORE old coconut fibers on site, and that's about it.

Actually the fibers were shown to the Woods Hole Team and they collected them, leaving some to believe they were planted. They were evidently handed to Beta Analytic by the Woods Hole Team, so taken and collected by trained individuals. I don't see the being planted as plausible because of the dating and at the time very few people had even heard of the Knights Templar. I would like to see a copy of the test done by the Michigan group, but even if I don't have it doesn't mean they are not telling the truth about it (there are two other tests). And the dating is significant. Be back in a couple of days
Cheers, Loki

 

[Dave Rishar]

You think the Varangian Guard were traders who traveled back and forth to trade goods?

Not at all. They were mercenaries. I'm just wondering how those jokers in Iceland heard that there was work to be had in Constantinople, and how they found their way there. If there was a flow of manpower between Constantinople and Scandinavia, there was probably an exchange of other goods as well.

The Woods Hole test was done by Beta Analytic and was correctly done.

I was under the impression that the Woods Hole team was taken to a location and told where to dig.

As far as the Atlantic Basin it has been settled.

The experts seem to disagree on this, but I am not an expert on the subject. Are you?

And I said their were also large drilled stones, some are even now under water.

That's actually rather interesting, but maybe not for obvious reasons. How far underwater are they? And what were ocean levels in 1308 like compared with today?

The word many tells you I should know how many?

If I were asked to provide a number and I didn't have the exact answer, but I suspected that the number was rather small, I'd say, "a few." If I knew that the answer was a significant number, I'd say, "many." If I had no idea at all, I'd say, "some." "Many" implies a large amount.

No, I cannot name them, but commandries tell us Templars were there.

But not the names or the numbers?

Balantrodoch is at Midlothian, There were over 100 Templar house in Scotland, DNA tells us that a large percentage of Scotland is of Norse descent as well as the Clans of the Western Highlands, where I premise the Templars spent the winter of 1307-1308. There certainly was ample time for interaction between the two groups during the 200 years the Templars were there. As a matter of fact the Norse were still traveling to Greenland in the early 14th century.

Agreed, disagreed, not surprised (their DNA is all over a number of places, as the Vikings - not necessarily the Norse, but the Vikings - are remembered for exploring and raiding, but they often conquered and settled down as well), disagree based on lack of evidence for, agree based on lack of evidence against, and agreed, although that's not really relevant.

The Templar ships left Scotland in 1308 after remaining the winter anchored at Ardchattan Priory. Btw, I have only ever premised a few ships making the crossing, perhaps 3 or 4.

Only a few made it, or only a few attempted it?

Jean de Chalons had no reason to lie, remember it was under inquisition investigation, and if you wish I can post his actual testimony. The man he named "Gerard de Villers" became the most wanted man in France after his testimony, why would that be if Chalons was not believed?

Seriously, Loki? The incarcerated Templars admitted to all sorts of garbage that nobody believes that they're guilty of, but you're going to tell me that one (or any) of them had no reason to lie? Some of them certainly lied, and I don't blame them. FFS, Jacques de Molay lied, and I don't blame him either. They were undergoing something that puts today's "enhanced interrogation" to shame, and at least some of them would tell their interrogators whatever it was that they thought they wanted to hear. I mean, wow...de Molay admitted guilt under interrogation, but maintained innocence while being burned alive. What do you honestly think that they did to those guys to make them talk, and why would you believe anything that they said while being interrogated?

Gerard was the top guy in France, wasn't he? I'd expect that he'd be a person of interest, regardless of what anyone else said about him.

 

[lokiblossom]

Not at all. They were mercenaries. I'm just wondering how those jokers in Iceland heard that there was work to be had in Constantinople, and how they found their way there. If there was a flow of manpower between Constantinople and Scandinavia, there was probably an exchange of other goods as well.



Loki; What kind of goods and what years?



I was under the impression that the Woods Hole team was taken to a location and told where to dig.



Loki; Thats what I said, please read more carefully



The experts seem to disagree on this, but I am not an expert on the subject. Are you?



Loki; No, but I read the experts report as should you if you want to argue the point.



That's actually rather interesting, but maybe not for obvious reasons. How far underwater are they? And what were ocean levels in 1308 like compared with today?



Loki; Not very far, and I don't know.



If I were asked to provide a number and I didn't have the exact answer, but I suspected that the number was rather small, I'd say, "a few." If I knew that the answer was a significant number, I'd say, "many." If I had no idea at all, I'd say, "some." "Many" implies a large amount.



Loki; Many!



But not the names or the numbers?



Loki; Don't know but irrelevant.



Agreed, disagreed, not surprised (their DNA is all over a number of places, as the Vikings - not necessarily the Norse, but the Vikings - are remembered for exploring and raiding, but they often conquered and settled down as well), disagree based on lack of evidence for, agree based on lack of evidence against, and agreed, although that's not really relevant.



Loki; No comprende question.



Only a few made it, or only a few attempted it?



Loki; Don't know!



Seriously, Loki? The incarcerated Templars admitted to all sorts of garbage that nobody believes that they're guilty of, but you're going to tell me that one (or any) of them had no reason to lie? Some of them certainly lied, and I don't blame them. FFS, Jacques de Molay lied, and I don't blame him either. They were undergoing something that puts today's "enhanced interrogation" to shame, and at least some of them would tell their interrogators whatever it was that they thought they wanted to hear. I mean, wow...de Molay admitted guilt under interrogation, but maintained innocence while being burned alive. What do you honestly think that they did to those guys to make them talk, and why would you believe anything that they said while being interrogated?

Gerard was the top guy in France, wasn't he? I'd expect that he'd be a person of interest, regardless of what anyone else said about him.

Why would he lie about that, is what I meant. The ships were gone, the inquisitors knew it and wanted to know who took them. Very simple right?
Gerard was the top guy in France, thanks for pointing that out. He and over 2500 Templars in France went unaccounted for by the inquisition. Gerard was also the head of the Templar secret inner circle. It doesn't take much to show a secret inner circle, all secret organizations have one, right?

I'm on the road right now and this is somewhat difficult, but I should be back tomorrow or Thursday.

Cheers, Loki

 

[Bumbalawski]

Well, another "TV" show. Now a rusty pulley and an EBay sword. How can the characters in this TV show keep a straight face? Next show, I will have my "barf bag" ready.

 

[Roadhse2]

The rusty "pulley" looked like an old engine dampner. like one on the bottom of any car/truck...Also called a harmonic balancer..

But I also noticed it has 3 holes, one in each 'spoke', those are typical on small stationary industrial engines to enable pulling them off easy to change gearing...Like on pumps etc...

So I will be interested to see what Dan ID's it as...

 

[Dave Rishar]

Why would he lie about that, is what I meant. The ships were gone, the inquisitors knew it and wanted to know who took them. Very simple right?

We know that some of them lied under interrogation. Why did they lie? I think that the answer is obvious. Why does anyone lie while being tortured?

If you're wondering what kind of pressure those guys were exerting on at least some of the people being questioned...well, look at de Molay again. He confessed and and then changed his story a couple of times, but he kept the faith while being burned alive. I don't know exactly what they were doing to their prisoners, but it was apparently worse than being burned alive. Under those circumstances, I think that I'd tell those guys everything I knew, and then I'd start making stuff up if I didn't know enough. That's just me, though. I'm delicate.

Gerard was the top guy in France, thanks for pointing that out. He and over 2500 Templars in France went unaccounted for by the inquisition. Gerard was also the head of the Templar secret inner circle. It doesn't take much to show a secret inner circle, all secret organizations have one, right?

Was Gerard the head of a secret inner circle? What testimony are we listening to here, and under what conditions was that testimony given?

I merely pointed out that he was the top guy because you mentioned that he was wanted based on one testimony. I just wanted it clear that in the absence of any testimony at all, he still would have been a wanted man.

I'm on the road right now and this is somewhat difficult, but I should be back tomorrow or Thursday.

I'll be on the road myself tomorrow, for longer than I'd like admittedly. Travel safely.

 

[Parlaymematey]

The comparison

 

[Parlaymematey]

Ahoy there! New person on board, long time fan and reader of the forum. Always been fascinated by oak island, love a good mystery, and really hope they find something of significant and true/original value. I must say the sword left me speechless, not in a good way.

 

[Steris001]

100% that's the 1st thing I saw as the holes, I work with them all the time and change them out, I saw the Easy Out Holes and knew it wasn't that old

 

[lokiblossom]

View attachment 1259664

Umm, just to keep the record straight, the Laginas did not produce that sword, or what ever it is.

Cheers, Loki

 

[adameb]

Ugh, I'd hoped that the 10X dive that looked out of chronological order had been a last minute edit shoehorned in after the eBay news came out.

But no, they've doubled down with eBay swords and car parts. Rick and Marty have jumped on the bike, flashed a thumbs up and gone full speed towards the shark ramp.

 

[l.cutler]

I have been fascinated with Oak Island for close to 50 years, this "reality show" has cured me.

 

[scottown]

The sword was found by J. Hutton Pulitzer

According to an article online -

The ?Magical? Oak Island Roman Sword And J. Hutton Pulitzer?s, Formerly Jeffrey Jovan Philyaw, Incredible Past