Season "3" of Curse of Oak Island

[Roadhse2]

Yes, the Templars did not originate trade or trade routes...

Ports that they visited could have had these fibers being used for packing over and over and moved around the world to ports further and further from the orignal source. Why you think the Templars would be the only ones to have access to it makes no sense to me. If the fibers were such a rare commodity then they would not be disposed of after one trip, but stored and reused as packing materials again and again...much the same way people now save bubble wrap or foam peanuts.

To hinge your Templar theory on the found fibers is very slim evidence of them visiting at all...the same could be said for any group. I'm not saying they didn't visit Oak Island, just that the fibers mean nothing in that regard.

It could mean 'someone' did visit Oak Island from 1300 forward, but 'who' is wide open...

Edit;

You have said the fibers do not degrade unless subjected to extremes...so the fibers found could have been used for a much longer time than the 1300 reference point, even Marco Polo needed packing material moving goods from South China to Europe during the 1200's via land and sea...Those same fibers would be reused to transport items again and again from one port or destination to the next...buying and selling them would also make a lucrative business wherever goods were warehoused, repacked for distribution to other destinations as needed. Simply tossing them out when they arrived would not be done as they were a commodity in themselves..

 

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[lokiblossom]

Yes, the Templars did not originate trade or trade routes...

Ports that they visited could have had these fibers being used for packing over and over and moved around the world to ports further and further from the orignal source. Why you think the Templars would be the only ones to have access to it makes no sense to me. If the fibers were such a rare commodity then they would not be disposed of after one trip, but stored and reused as packing materials again and again...much the same way people now save bubble wrap or foam peanuts.

To hinge your Templar theory on the found fibers is very slim evidence of them visiting at all...the same could be said for any group. I'm not saying they didn't visit Oak Island, just that the fibers mean nothing in that regard.

It could mean 'someone' did visit Oak Island from 1300 forward, but 'who' is wide open...

Umm, I don't think they had bubble wrap or foam peanuts, or did they?
If you had something important to pack for shipping would you use decayed and smelly packing material from the 18th century?
So, with this in mind, who else could have visited Nova Scotia in the 14th century with packing material and rope made in India?
Certainly not proof, but not slim evidence either.
Cheers, Loki

 

[Roadhse2]

You would use what was available at your port of call...and as i pointed out, selling the packing would be a part of a ports business...I highly doubt anyone 'cherry picked' what packing material they received...or that the Templars themselves did the actual packing of items...

The packing itself does not mean anyone visited Nova Scotia in the 14th century...and that is the whole point...it could be a much later time period than the day the coconut was taken off the tree, even if that is a few hundred years later. So yes...slim.

But we could go back and forth on this forever...I have wasted enough time on all this, but you have not convinced me...and I won't change your mind...so with that, i'm done...

 

[lokiblossom]

You would use what was available at your port of call...and as i pointed out, selling the packing would be a part of a ports business...I highly doubt anyone 'cherry picked' what packing material they received...or that the Templars themselves did the actual packing of items...

The packing itself does not mean anyone visited Nova Scotia in the 14th century...and that is the whole point...it could be a much later time period than the day the coconut was taken off the tree, even if that is a few hundred years later. So yes...slim.

But we could go back and forth on this forever...I have wasted enough time on all this, but you have not convinced me...and I won't change your mind...so with that, i'm done...

Sorry, I still feel I have to answer you, but I don't feel that I have to convince you. Perhaps there is others I can convince. Believe it or not there are some who do accept that a small group of Knights Templars did visit Nova Scotia in the 14th century. I doubt very seriously that anybody would not use newer packing. Also there was coir (rope made from coconut fiber in India) which certainly would not have been used if very old.
And then there is the FACT (yes with documentation) that the Knights Templars did leave Cyprus (which traded with India) during the correct time period (1307) Traveled to France, left France that same year and disappeared, again in 1307.
Cheers, Loki

 

[Roadhse2]

Was the coir also dated? Without a similar date, finding rope is just that, finding rope, doesn't mean the dated fibers have anything to do with the rope found. Citation for the rope dating please...

FACT...many others left ports that year also, (thousands?)..many never returned, maybe they all met at Oak Island?

Maybe the Knights were...but that does not mean they left the fibers found on the Island...

Once again...look how far the packing material would have had to travel, at someones expense, and be to valuable to simply toss out at each port. You yourself say how it is not degraded over hundreds of years...so why wouldnt it be reused over and over. To not do so means to ship new packing material FROM far away, at great cost, only to be used to ship other items TO far away...makes no sense at all.

 

[Robot]

Scientist claim "India" had a "Coconut Fiber Industry" only after the "1500's"

Sorry, I still feel I have to answer you, but I don't feel that I have to convince you. Perhaps there is others I can convince. Believe it or not there are some who do accept that a small group of Knights Templars did visit Nova Scotia in the 14th century. I doubt very seriously that anybody would not use newer packing. Also there was coir (rope made from coconut fiber in India) which certainly would not have been used if very old.
And then there is the FACT (yes with documentation) that the Knights Templars did leave Cyprus (which traded with India) during the correct time period (1307) Traveled to France, left France that same year and disappeared, again in 1307.
Cheers, Loki

Unless you are stating that the Knights Templar were dealing in "Used Fiber" from India, it was not until well after the Coconut seed arrived in India at the 1500's that Coconut Trees flourished and a Fiber Industry presented itself.

 

[Not Peralta]

That is not a fact that they came to Oak Island, Still no facts of treasure of any kind being hidden on Oak Island.NP

 

[Icewing]

I just want to know who finds a depression in the ground and digs a 10 foot deep hole on a whim. Let alone who digs a 150 foot deep hole to hide something knowing they would have dig it again to retrieve what they buried.

At best I think the original hole was for drinking water.
Hence why they are on season 3 and still have not started any meaningful excavation.

 

[Not Peralta]

I just want to know who finds a depression in the ground and digs a 10 foot deep hole on a whim. Let alone who digs a 150 foot deep hole to hide something knowing they would have dig it again to retrieve what they buried.

At best I think the original hole was for drinking water.
Hence why they are on season 3 and still have not started any meaningful excavation.

Amigo, wait till season100, by then they will find a mcdonalds,np

 

[lokiblossom]

View attachment 1258552

Unless you are stating that the Knights Templar were dealing in "Used Fiber" from India, it was not until well after the Coconut seed arrived in India at the 1500's that Coconut Trees flourished and a Fiber Industry presented itself.

Ropes and cordage made from coconut fiber have been in use from ancient times. Indian Navigators who sailed the seas to Malaya, Java, China, and the Gulf of Arabia centuries ago used coir for their ships ropes. Arab writers of the 11th century ad referred to the extensive use of coir for ships ropes and rigging. Marco Polo who visited India in the 13th century called coconut "Indian Nut".
I am aware of the current discussion on the history of the coconut in India, but from what I have read and understand, coir was a flourishing business in India in the 13th century. Whether it was or was not does not change my theory as it certainly was an Arab commodity earlier then that, and the Templars also had close ties to Arabs as we know.
Cheers, Loki

 

[Roadhse2]

There is the problem...

Many people had trade with the same areas as did the Templars, so finding fibers does not mean they came from a Templar ship...nor does the fact that they left France to never be seen again.

While it is possible, yes...but is also possible it never happened...and why I said your theory basing itself on these few facts is 'slim' at best...You are going to need more to prove your theory..

 

[lokiblossom]

Was the coir also dated? Without a similar date, finding rope is just that, finding rope, doesn't mean the dated fibers have anything to do with the rope found. Citation for the rope dating please...

FACT...many others left ports that year also, (thousands?)..many never returned, maybe they all met at Oak Island?

Maybe the Knights were...but that does not mean they left the fibers found on the Island...

Once again...look how far the packing material would have had to travel, at someones expense, and be to valuable to simply toss out at each port. You yourself say how it is not degraded over hundreds of years...so why wouldnt it be reused over and over. To not do so means to ship new packing material FROM far away, at great cost, only to be used to ship other items TO far away...makes no sense at all.

I thought you were done wasting time? Ok, I'm game, no sailor would use old rope, not me, not Captain Bligh, none, now we have wealthy Templars, why would they use old ropes? No they are not dated, where did I say they were. I can pick up a piece of old rope and tell it is old rope and I am not very smart. Maybe many did leave ports in that year and I'm sure that some didn't return. But remember when Chris C. sailed to the New World in 1492 he was hailed as the first. Are you saying others (besides the Vikings) were before him? If thats what you are saying than are you not using my same point to argue against me? So who were these other sailors who sailed to Nova Scotia in the 14th century with coconut fiber from the Eastern Med.? If not then your argument is much more flimsy than mine, right? Are you saying the Arabs made the voyage, why, for what purpose, how is this a valid argument?
Cheers, Loki

 

[Roadhse2]

Nope...you brought up the coir, and presented as being from that same time period and found on the island...that was to validate ships being there from the 1300 period...

I could as easily say the Templars sailed off to Norway and left the fibers there and then they found the way to Oak Island with some other exploration...can I prove it, no...same as you

Besides, I don't argue that the Templars may have been in the area...just that the fiber dating will not prove who was...You are the one citing it as proof they were, and that isnt proof at all..

 

[lokiblossom]

Nope...you brought up the coir, and presented as being from that same time period and found on the island...You are the one citing it as proof they were, and that isnt proof at all..

Maybe not to you, and I'm sure not to some others, but alas, it is to me. C-14 dating, while not perfect is reliable enough.
The fact is the only people running around the North Atlantic in the proper time period were the Norse (Vikings who sailed from Scotland) and according to my premise the Knights Templars. While the only people who traded in the Eastern Mediterranean and also sailed to Scotland were the Knights Templar. coincidence? perhaps, but IMHO not.

Cheer, Loki

 

[Jason in Enid]

You don't seem to understand the basic concept of trade. Eastern med trades with eastern africa, east africa trades with west africa and egypt. both trade with italy, spain, france. Those trade with each other and England as well. All of those were sailing the entire eastern seaboard from argentina to canada. All that packing material moved back and forth all around the world like that. There are ballast stones from all over the world in every old world harbor because ballast was added and dumped in ports as needed. Just like packing was added or discarded.

 

[lokiblossom]

You don't seem to understand the basic concept of trade. Eastern med trades with eastern africa, east africa trades with west africa and egypt. both trade with italy, spain, france. Those trade with each other and England as well. All of those were sailing the entire eastern seaboard from argentina to canada. All that packing material moved back and forth all around the world like that. There are ballast stones from all over the world in every old world harbor because ballast was added and dumped in ports as needed. Just like packing was added or discarded.

Yep, thats it Jason, I don't understand trade. I did say I wasn't very smart, but on the other hand we are talking about the 14th century. Did Argentina trade with Canada in the 14th century, I don't remember that from history class?

Cheers,, Loki

 

[Roadhse2]

No, only you are insisting this happened in the 14th century...while it could be much later that the fibers showed up on Oak Island after being used in many ports around the world...and that is why dating them without other proof means nothing in your theory...and why only you can see them as a benefit to your theory..

In your own words you bring up another possibility... that the fibers got there through Viking visits to the area...fibers they got in Scotland brought there by Templars.

"The fact is the only people running around the North Atlantic in the proper time period were the Norse (Vikings who sailed from Scotland) and according to my premise the Knights Templars. While the only people who traded in the Eastern Mediterranean and also sailed to Scotland were the Knights Templar"

 

[Dave Rishar]

The meaning of the words and thoughts are clearly spelled out, I am not arguing semantics, I am using a dictionary.

I'd consult that dictionary and look up the meaning of semantics, then.

The three samples prove coconut fiber was there dated from the 13th to 14th century. The only group that could have had a source for coconut fiber in that time period was the Knights Templar.

Incorrect on the latter part. As for the former, how many coconut fibers are there? How many samples have been taken? Were there any other dates? What is the provenance of the samples that were taken? (I'm reminded of the Woods Hole investigation here.)

Remember...assuming that there was no contamination of the samples (highly unlikely for samples recovered from a beach), carbon dating of a coconut tells us when that coconut left the tree. It tells us nothing about what's happened to it since then.

I have posted on this forum several times, and I can and have provided the links, that coconuts did not exist anywhere in the Atlantic Basin during that time period. In fact they could not have washed up onto the beach unless someone brought them there in the 13th and or 14th centurys.

The distribution and origin of the coconut hasn't been definitively settled yet.

The Vikings may have sailed the coast of Nova Scotia in the 11th century, but nothing ties them to the 13th or 14th century in Nova Scotia. And it requires no imagination on my part to believe that experienced Templar sailors could have made the trip.

There's nothing that ties the Templars to the area either, so it does require some imagination on your part. Them managing to get there is probably the least problematic part of the hypothesis.

There are drilled stones of all sizes, which is what I said. No I don't think a coffee can full of pebbles could have anchored a knarr, that would seem to be ridiculous, and if you had read my post correctly you would have noticed that is not what I said.

If you had read my post correctly, we would be talking about those stones right now. You gave an example of anchoring with stones. I gave one as well. I then went to imply that a stone that's easily moved wouldn't serve as an anchor for the kind of ship needed to cross the Atlantic.

I don't know how many of the Templars were Norse...

The word you used was, "many."

...but I do know that some were. There were Templar commanderies in Norway for instance.

Were there now? Would you mind naming them and citing sources?

And I also know there was interaction between the Norse and Templars in Scotland at a time when the Norse still had settlements on Greenland, Balantrodoch and Roslin existed for two hundred years only three miles apart. The Viking sea route from Scotland to Vinland never involved an open water segment that would have been over 250 miles.

What sort of interaction? I mean, I know and fully understand that they were both in Scotland at the same time, but I want you to take a look at Midlothian, where the Templars were operating out of, and where the Norse settlements were all the way up at the north end. They were in what's today the same country, but they were about 150 miles away from one another as the crow flies, with the journey being significantly longer in reality. Does this mean that they never met? Of course not. Does this mean that they never worked together? No, it doesn't. Let's not pretend that they were next door neighbors though, or that they had anything in common with one another - not language, not customs, not religious beliefs, nothing. Yes, they may have been best friends forever, but it's going to take some work to prove that, as there was little reason for it.

It's a bit over 260 miles from the Faroes to Iceland, but that's me being snippy. I get your point on the distances involved. However - and this is a rather large however - if a fleet set out in late 1307, they picked a bad time of the year to do it. Have you ever been in the North Atlantic during the fall/early winter? There was a reason that the Norse sailed in the summer and wintered over if they couldn't make it back before the weather turned, as the trip across the Atlantic was dangerous enough with favorable weather. Templars may or may not have known about this, but any hired Norse help certainly would have.

Yes it is a fact, and well documented by inquisition records.

Are you referring to the testimony of Jean de Chalons? He'd passed on a story that he'd heard from someone else. Even his interrogators didn't believe him. Was there something else that was documented?

 

[Dave Rishar]

While the only people who traded in the Eastern Mediterranean and also sailed to Scotland were the Knights Templar.

Incorrect.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Varangian_Guard

Not only did the Scandinavians make it to the eastern Med, but they were likely there before the Templars were.

 

[lokiblossom]

No, only you are insisting this happened in the 14th century...while it could be much later that the fibers showed up on Oak Island after being used in many ports around the world...and that is why dating them without other proof means nothing in your theory...and why only you can see them as a benefit to your theory..

In your own words you bring up another possibility... that the fibers got there through Viking visits to the area...fibers they got in Scotland brought there by Templars.

"The fact is the only people running around the North Atlantic in the proper time period were the Norse (Vikings who sailed from Scotland) and according to my premise the Knights Templars. While the only people who traded in the Eastern Mediterranean and also sailed to Scotland were the Knights Templar"

Not true, I am insisting nobody would use old rotten and smelly packing material, and certainly not ropes, coir (made from the same material) these old ships did not have dry holds. The vikings did not trade in the Eastern Med. late enough and when they did trade they went back to Norway.
Cheers, Loki