Possible source of stone used in Peralta tablets

[Treasure_Hunter]

Goldnlead, some posts deleted, please keep posts on the topic and remember we are a family friendly forum.

 

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[goldnlead77]

My fault, I understand. I got a little carried away over a heated topic that caused me a lot of suffering. I will keep it clean, my apologies 🙏

 

[Treasure_Hunter]

My fault, I understand. I got a little carried away over a heated topic that caused me a lot of suffering. I will keep it clean, my apologies 🙏

Thank you for understanding.

 

[coazon de oro]

Howdy goldnlead77,
You are ahead of most here, you have the ability to figure things out for yourself. College degrees will soon be worthless, since they have only been teaching what they want people to know. You will remember my words one day.
We are always learning new things, mostly in what we have interest in. Many highly educated members post their two cents worth, and get change back.

Homar

 

[coazon de oro]

So…if we choose to reject the idea that the 1847 represents a date, then we also must suspend all of the conclusions based upon that, which leaves us with the idea that the stone tablets could have been made at anytime, and may be authentic.

Howdy alan m,
The PSM's are authentic, but one does not just choose to reject the idea of 1847 being a date, you have to find what it really represents.
Homar

 

[Al D]

Hello Homar
The same can be said about the stones authenticity, you need to prove it.

 

[coazon de oro]

I know super glue works great if I cut myself . It was designed by hospital workers to seal cuts. It heals faster and doesn’t leave a scar. I didn’t pay much attention to it being broken when I went to see it. Does anyone know when it was glued?

Howdy goldnlead77,

Yes I do know when the Heart stone was glued, it was before they were buried. For an exact date, at least to the month, and year, I would have to go to the Queen Creek area.

There is a lot that I do not share about the PSM's. Years ago, I was defending Travis T. and the PSM's from a naysayer and his team who were making up a story about them. They were claiming that some Tumlinson kids were playing with the Heart stone in a gas station in Stockdale, Texas where the stones were on display. (The story came from those kids now adults) They ended up breaking the Heart stone, and Uncle, or someone, glued them back together with tire glue.
I told them the Heart stone had already been broken, and glued together when Travis found them, this can be seen on the bumper photo which I am sure you are familiar with. I also told them that "tire glue" does not get hard, and turns to powder over time. Told them to try it themselves to see if it worked.
I believe it was the late Jim Hatt who first thought about aging the glue on the Heart stone. Later the late Wayne Spencer (somehiker) said it might be animal glue. That's when I shared that in my opinion it was glue made from pine resin, and charcoal. (I had done my homework when Jim Hatt had brought it up.) The strongest animal glue is made with the skin of a black donkey, it is all the same color. The Heart stone has black glue on the trail side of it, and one can see amber from melted resin oozed out on the side with the zeros. The resin gets melted by the campfire on a rock then charcoal is mixed into it. So it looks to me like the melted resin was put first, then the charcoal mixed in as the Heart stone lay on top of a flat rock?
I was made fun of by another late member, saying there were no pines in those Salt Mountains, but there are. The Peraltas had to cross what is now Pinal County, and in those days they would carry pine resin in their travel supplies to mend things. Not saying the Peraltas buried the PSM's.
Anyway that thread was taken down, but the PSM's speak for themselves. It has also been said that Travis carved the zeros on the Heart stone, but the glue filled the grooves where the zeros and the carvings meet. So Travis did not carve those zeros.

Homar

 

[PotBelly Jim]

Homar, I think you'd be right about pine pitch. If the heart stone was ever mended back in the day, that would be the best way to do it. And as you know, the very word "Pinal" is a form of "Pine", and the Apache name for those Pinal Mts was "mountains burdened with pines". Arizona has many species of pine and has some of the largest contiguous stands of pine in the lower 48. It would be easy for anyone to find pine resin there, just climb a mountain or plateau high enough above sea level and you have more pines than you know what to do with. It's part of the reason why AZ is always on fire.

Pine resin is usually mixed with charcoal, a bit of oil (fat or plant oil) and some sort of fiber to make pitch. Easy enough to get any of that stuff, they wouldn't have even needed to carry it with them.

The heart stone does look to me to have some sort of black glue residue on the front that IMO would be consistent with pine pitch.

But, I see what is almost certainly two-part epoxy evident on the back side:

I've worked with it enough to know it when I see it One might think this is pine resin, and it does look a lot like pine resin or refined sap, but in this state, an amber clear color, it wouldn't hold the stone together long. It only works well when mixed with carbon and some sort of fine fiber. Sort of like cave-man fiberglass. Regular old pine sap without those ingredients (that also turns it a coal-black color when mixed, not amber) just turns brittle and crumbles.

It's possible that the heart stone was cleaned up of any old pine resin (mineral and oily solvents will dissolve it easily) and it was epoxied at some point.

I've heard that a mold-maker made copies of the stones and it could have been done then. Or by any of the modern owners at some point.

 

[deducer]

Homar, I think you'd be right about pine pitch. If the heart stone was ever mended back in the day, that would be the best way to do it. And as you know, the very word "Pinal" is a form of "Pine", and the Apache name for those Pinal Mts was "mountains burdened with pines". Arizona has many species of pine and has some of the largest contiguous stands of pine in the lower 48. It would be easy for anyone to find pine resin there, just climb a mountain or plateau high enough above sea level and you have more pines than you know what to do with. It's part of the reason why AZ is always on fire.

Pine resin is usually mixed with charcoal, a bit of oil (fat or plant oil) and some sort of fiber to make pitch. Easy enough to get any of that stuff, they wouldn't have even needed to carry it with them.

The heart stone does look to me to have some sort of black glue residue on the front that IMO would be consistent with pine pitch.

But, I see what is almost certainly two-part epoxy evident on the back side:


View attachment 2104202

I've worked with it enough to know it when I see it One might think this is pine resin, and it does look a lot like pine resin or refined sap, but in this state, an amber clear color, it wouldn't hold the stone together long. It only works well when mixed with carbon and some sort of fine fiber. Sort of like cave-man fiberglass. Regular old pine sap without those ingredients (that also turns it a coal-black color when mixed, not amber) just turns brittle and crumbles.

It's possible that the heart stone was cleaned up of any old pine resin (mineral and oily solvents will dissolve it easily) and it was epoxied at some point.

I've heard that a mold-maker made copies of the stones and it could have been done then. Or by any of the modern owners at some point.

You are correct. More than one mold-maker has had a go at it, including Jim Hatt. The idea originated with the Mesa Museum so that they wouldn't have an empty exhibit whenever they loaned the Stone Maps out for other exhibitions. The first to make copies on commission was a Garn Anderson (Graphics Productions of Utah) who made 22 copies back in 1987. He gave the molds to a Rich Robinson who made further copies until the molds were used the wrong way by an artist in Laguna Beach, CA (who probably did not use a release agent). These molds fell apart shortly thereafter.

One other thing to mention- there is mention of one of the Tumlinsons accidentally dropping the heart stone and gluing it back together.

Either way, the resin would definitely have been treated so that the original rubber mold wouldn't stick to it.

The below photo is a reproduction of the heart stone.

 

[PotBelly Jim]

One of Travis' early personal photos clearly shows the cross-shaped cracks in the heart stone:

It's possible that there's a bit of silicone mold material left in the bottom part of the "D" shape?

This photo was of the maps on display at the SMHS:

 

[markmar]

Jim
In Travi's photo, the stone heart looks like has two layers.

 

[deducer]

Could this be a portion of the original glue?

 

[markmar]

Coazon de oro wrote: " Anyway that thread was taken down, but the PSM's speak for themselves. It has also been said that Travis carved the zeros on the Heart stone, but the glue filled the grooves where the zeros and the carvings meet. So Travis did not carve those zeros."

I also have wοndered what that six zeroes on the back of the stone heart mean. Few years ago, I sent an aerial image to a very good map dowser/psychic, of the place where I believed the cave of Walter Perinne gold story would be. I gave him the description of the cave like was described by the Walter's mom, but he was not able to "see" something on that photo. I was sure the cave was there , so I imagined something else was going on. I sent him another photo of a region about half mile afar, a region without interest, and he "caught" the image. From his description i understood why he couldn't "see" the image the first time, and also I understood he "caught" also the image of the cave at the end of the stone trail map, which is in the vicinity. This is what he "saw":

" YES YOU ARE RIGHT.. THE CAVE IS LIKE A LONG LONG HALLWAY.. INFACT THERE ARE TWO OF THEM.. ANCIENT CIVILIZATIONS LIVED UNDERGROUND FOR SURE.. BIG STACKS OF GOLD BARS ARE IN 6 LOCATIONS WITHIN THE TWO CAVES.. HOWEVER, THIS AREA -WITHOUT ANY DOUBT- IS FULL OF "SEVERE" EVIL MAGIC (INTENDED TO DISTRACT OTHERS FROM REACHING TO THEIR VALUABLE BELONGINGS), WHICH FACT MAKES DOWSING PRETTY IMPOSSIBLE FOR EVEN SKILLFUL DOWSERS BECAUSE EVERY HOUR YOU DOWSE THIS AREA YOU WILL SEE SAME TARGET MOVING FROM ONE PLACE TO ANOTHER.. THIS IS OF COURSE IF THEY MANAGED TO CATCH A TREASURE OR EVEN AN ACTUAL UNDERGROUND CAVE IN THE FIRST PLACE."

 

[Clay Diggins]

EDIT: I'm not sure what she means by Coconino sandstone, but I'm assuming she thinks it originates from a geologic formation i.e. the Coconino Plateau.

PS - My wife has been a geologist for over 30 years and says there's no way to precisely date rocks. If they're in place where they formed one can make assumptions about age in terms of geologic strata/epochs and any associated weathering that correlates with assumptions about ancient weather patterns. This is very basic, such as associating fossilized ferns etc. in strata with such plants needing a temperate/rainy environment. Or obvious signs of wet vs. dry weathering.

If they're not "in situ", some assumptions might be made about signs of weathering on stones, or lichen formation, but it's a WAG and there's not much certainty that would be provable using established scientific method.

My take-away is that accurately dating stones to within a hundred years is pretty much a guess, and probably based on weathering.

There are newer technologies being used today but they weren't available in the 1960's or 70's.

Coconino sandstone is a real thing. I think all geologists have had at least an educational exposure to Coconino sandstone. Heck even Wikipedia has a section on Coconino sandstone. Even just a simple google search would have informed you.

Coconino Sandstone - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

The DAI team of scientists that tested the Peralta rocks included Beth Miksa. Interestingly she is usually attributed as a geologist. That's kind of like saying someone is a doctor - you don't know if they are a dentist, veterinarian, ophthalmologist, doctor of philosophy or a surgeon.

So your average geologist doesn't know much about rocks except as they relate to geological processes. That's why we get ignorant statements like "you can't tell the age of a rock" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uranium–lead_dating) or "how could anyone tell where a particular sandstone is from".

Some geologists train as Petrologists.

1 Introduction to Petrology – Open Petrology

opengeology.org

Petrologists can tell you what age a rock is, what it's composed of and where it came from. Probably just the type of scientist you would want to investigate the "Peralta" rocks.

Doctor Beth is a highly trained and respected Petrologist concentrating her studies in the American Southwest.

But who really cares how old the rock is? The age of the rock doesn't really come into play with the "Peralta" rocks. The place they came from really does matter. Coconino sandstone only comes from one geologic formation - the Coconino plateau of northern Arizona. Not Texas, not Tucson and certainly not the Superstitions. Just Northern Arizona.

Really though you probably want an expert scientist that's knowledgeable of the area and the cultures involved.

Doctor Beth is a highly trained and respected Archaeologist concentrating her studies in the American Southwest.

So you have an expert in both rock identification and man made features telling you that she observed Coconino sandstone that had been "carved" with rotary power tools.

Anyone else here with dual doctorates, a purpose built Petrology lab, and a lifetime of experience assessing man made stone objects from the southwest that would care to refute Doctor Beth with some facts?

It would be helpful if people did their research before forming theories based on limited information. Confirmation bias is a thing with all humans, myself included. If you form opinions without adequate facts your opinions will be nothing more than opinions. Opinions never solved a mystery or found a treasure.

 

[Al D]

Hello Clay
the facts which you point out are not in dispute, as far as I am aware, only the conclusion that the stones are fake is what is being debated.
as for the rotary machine tools used to carve them, the dentist drill (a rotary machine tool) was in use in the late 1700’s, about 1796 or thereabouts.
the iconography, the type of cross specifically, being stated that it is 20th century design is in error, there are numerous examples of that style cross from headstone dated to the mid 1800’s. There is even an example of a cross pendant which was retrieved at Tubac by archeologist which has been dated to 1650’s. I have personally seen this item.
I will not go into the unverified statement about the horse being a copy from a children's book, that book having no example ever being presented. or the weak notion that hand writing analysis can be applied to to the stone carving.

 

[Al D]

The only “facts” you will find in the DAI report printed by Arizona Highways is the title

 

[Treasure_Hunter]

Please end the insults and personal attacks now!

 

[deducer]

Please end the insults and personal attacks now!

Did you just delete my post??

 

[deducer]

"Arizona Highways" is not a scientific publication. One can easily see that right off the bat by observing this gentleman using his loupe the wrong way.

The article contains personal opinions only. None one of the individuals in the article explained the scientific methods used to reach said conclusions.

This article would easily be rejected by every single scientific journal in the world.

 

[Treasure_Hunter]

Did you just delete my post??

Yes because it contained insult, don't want a post deleted don't insult member.