Peralta Cabbage?

[JohnWhite]

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Ed T

 

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[deducer]

I've always wondered why the first "Peralta" stone map has the most prominent inscription:

EL COBOLLO DE SANTA FE

There is no current use of the word cobollo in Spanish but some older Spanish documents used it as an extension of the noun "col" which is the Spanish root word for cabbage family vegetables. The most reasonable translation is "The cabbage of Holy Faith". Or Cobollo could refer to a family name? "The family of Holy Faith"?

Of course there is the addition of
YO PASTO AL NORTE DEL RIO

which translates:
I GRAZE TO THE NORTH FROM THE RIVER

That, the composition of the stones and the cartoon pony reinforce my thought that these stones were created by a modern jokester. Quite possibly DeGrazia and his friends.

Has anyone else studied the rather strange "Spanish" used on the stones?

Coming to this thread late, but what makes you think the Peraltas had anything to do with the Stone Maps?

 

[Clay Diggins]

English Grammar 101
Quotation marks (") are used to show that an author is using someone else's exact words

Educate yourself to better understand the standards of written communication.

 

[JohnWhite]

🤣

Ed T

 

[deducer]

English Grammar 101
Quotation marks (") are used to show that an author is using someone else's exact words

Educate yourself to better understand the standards of written communication.

No that's not the definition of quotation marks in the context that it's being used in your post, especially when you don't identify who/what you are quoting.

And in your first post on this topic, you invoke the Peraltas without context or reference, so the reader would conclude it's your impression that the Peraltas have something to do with these Stone Maps.

 

[deducer]

you are assuming the Jesuits were Spanish. This was rarely true. Most Jesuits were university educated French, Croatians and Italians.

The first batch of Jesuits that came over to continue the effort of ministering to the Pimeria Alta after Kino passed in 1711, were actually German Jesuits, these Jesuits were very well educated, particularly in metallurgy and cartography.

The area North of Casa Grande all the way to Moqui is left blank except for the word "Apaches". It wasn't until after the Spanish era that the area North of Casa Grande, including the Superstitions, was explored.

Two things about this statement. First, Moqui doesn't refer to a place, it refers to a people, the Móókwi or the self-designated name of who we today know as the Hopi.

And your statement that the area north of Casa Grande or even the area today known as the Superstitions wasn't explored until after the Spanish era is incorrect. Since you profess to be a cartographer, I will give you this map to study.

Note the name P. Sedelmayer (P standing for Padre). He was one of the German Jesuits sent over. And he wasn't even the first Jesuit up there.

 

[Clay Diggins]

Two things about this statement. First, Moqui doesn't refer to a place, it refers to a people, the Móókwi or the self-designated name of who we today know as the Hopi.

If you were actually paying attention you would have noticed that all the non Spanish areas are named after the tribes that occupy them - they are not the names of places but of tribes. The Moqui are a tribe known by white people today as the Hopi. As the Hopi would say of your grasp of their culture, location and language - "bahana ni titsu".

While you are trying to google that Hopi phrase to see if I insulted you you might want to look up Orabi and Moenkopi - the native villages on the north of the map. Those villages are more than 180 miles north and 50 miles east of Casas Grande - not just to the east as shown on Sedelmayer's map

And your statement that the area north of Casa Grande or even the area today known as the Superstitions wasn't explored until after the Spanish era is incorrect. Since you profess to be a cartographer, I will give you this map to study.

That map does not depict any Spanish settlements or even exploration north of Casa Grande. How is this supposed to support your theory that the Spanish ever entered the Superstitions? This map shows just the opposite.

Once again your knowledge of Spanish and cartography are lacking. I can see why you didn't include the whole map. I'll explain.

The Spanish used on the maps of this time was Catalan or "High Spanish". The attribution to Sedelmayer reads "The Assumption River discovered by Padre Sedelmayer 1744", In this case assumption means the joining of the rivers (junction). Padre Sedelmayer was known for traversing the lower Gila and Colorado rivers. As I'm sure you already know, being a cartography expert, the junction (assumption) of the Verde and Salt rivers is 18 miles west of the Superstition mountains. Also Padre Sedelmayer was obviously a really poor map maker. The junction of the Salt/Verde (assumption) with the Gila is nearly 50 miles north and 140 miles east of the junction of the Gila with the Colorado - not due east 50 miles miles as Padre Sedelmayer shows on his map. The Gila actually turns south and then east after the junction with the Salt, Sedelmayer missed that entirely. This is known as the Gila bend, interestingly Sedelmayer described the bend in his diary but left it out on his map.

You might notice all the pretty mountains on this map. Notice how all the mountains range east west in Arizona? Do I really need to explain how wrong this is? The reason the mountains are all east west is because when viewed only from the river all mountains appear to run parralell to your path. There is no third dimension (north/south) unless you actually travel to the mountains and see how far they extend to the north or south. Sedelmayer never did that, he stuck to the river. You should read his Diary. He's quite clear where he traveled on the Gila and Colorado rivers. He did not stray much from the river banks except when he was preaching to the native villages.

P Kino was the first European to discover the Salt and Verde rivers. He did that by viewing the junction of the rivers from the south on the top of the Estrella mountains in 1697. Although Kino explored the irrigation works on the banks of the lower Salt and Verde rivers later he did not visit the junction of those rivers or their junction with the Gila. If you knew the area you would understand why it was a big deal that Sedelmayer actually physically made it to those junctions nearly 50 years later. Study baseline to understand those problems.

View attachment 2081093

I guess it's fair to call Sedelmayer a German. There was no German state until 1871 but Sedelmayer's origin was Bavaria which became the core of the later German nation.

Now comes the big question. WTF does any of this have to do with the original subject posted? Are you intentionally trying to take this thread off track or are you just incapable of discussing anything outside of your confirmation bias?

I suggest you start your own thread unless you have something factual to contribute on this thread.

 

[coazon de oro]

Fellow LDM Hunters,
It is sad to find so much head butting in just about every thread here, and don't want to get caught between the sarcasm it creates. Not taking sides, but unbeknownst to deducer, the map he posted seems right on topic.
If one looks at the area between the Gila, and Salt rivers, it shows it to be "tierra de los cruciferos". That would explain Clay's cabbage eating horse, which could also be the cause of the Peralta massacre? Sorry.
Mr. Diggins, you are a very intelligent man, and I have been learning things about mining from you, for which I am grateful. You, along with many other great miners before you, have come to the conclusion that the LDM can not be where most of us are looking for it. Jacob Waltz was also a miner, and knowing where his mine was, stated "no miner will find my mine".
That leaves us with just the clues, and crude maps as a way to find the mine. Most of the clues have been twisted, and many other clues have been made up by others. Not everyone is a cartographer, so most lost treasure, and lost mine maps are as crude as they come. If those maps were made by cartographers, we wouldn't have lost treasures, or lost mines to look for.
The 1847 on the PSM's is not a date, the PSM's were buried in 1717 in my honest opinion.
Homar

 

[Clay Diggins]

Fellow LDM Hunters,
It is sad to find so much head butting in just about every thread here, and don't want to get caught between the sarcasm it creates. Not taking sides, but unbeknownst to deducer, the map he posted seems right on topic.
If one looks at the area between the Gila, and Salt rivers, it shows it to be "tierra de los cruciferos". That would explain Clay's cabbage eating horse, which could also be the cause of the Peralta massacre? Sorry.

Well that is the closest I've seen on this thread at a real shot at defining cobollos. "Land of the Rabe". I doubt it's the solution but I must admit to a certain logic. Perhaps the mapmaker mistook the barrel cactus and prickly pear for broccoli, kale and cabbage?

Mr. Diggins, you are a very intelligent man, and I have been learning things about mining from you, for which I am grateful. You, along with many other great miners before you, have come to the conclusion that the LDM can not be where most of us are looking for it. Jacob Waltz was also a miner, and knowing where his mine was, stated "no miner will find my mine".

Homar

Ah - so you have decided I don't believe there is a Lost Dutchman mine? I hate to disappoint you but I have no belief one way or another about the LDM. I've seen no facts to support the existence of a mine but likewise I have seen no facts to refute the mine - other than all the searchers who have failed and in some instances died. Granted, on balance the evidence favors no mine but that's not enough to reach a conclusion.

I can't prove a negative no matter how many times other's fail to locate any mine works or mineralization. When you believe in things you can't understand that's superstition. Not a pun on the mountains and not a knock on those that do believe without knowledge. I don't believe in things I don't understand - instead I try to understand those things. In part that's what this thread is about.

So do you have any thoughts you would like to share about why this stone has the non word COBOLLO inscribed so prominently on it? I shared my theory, do you have one Homar?

 

[deducer]

If you were actually paying attention you would have noticed that all the non Spanish areas are named after the tribes that occupy them - they are not the names of places but of tribes. The Moqui are a tribe known by white people today as the Hopi. As the Hopi would say of your grasp of their culture, location and language - "bahana ni titsu".

While you are trying to google that Hopi phrase to see if I insulted you you might want to look up Orabi and Moenkopi - the native villages on the north of the map. Those villages are more than 180 miles north and 50 miles east of Casas Grande - not just to the east as shown on Sedelmayer's map


That map does not depict any Spanish settlements or even exploration north of Casa Grande. How is this supposed to support your theory that the Spanish ever entered the Superstitions? This map shows just the opposite.

Once again your knowledge of Spanish and cartography are lacking. I can see why you didn't include the whole map. I'll explain.

The Spanish used on the maps of this time was Catalan or "High Spanish". The attribution to Sedelmayer reads "The Assumption River discovered by Padre Sedelmayer 1744", In this case assumption means the joining of the rivers (junction). Padre Sedelmayer was known for traversing the lower Gila and Colorado rivers. As I'm sure you already know, being a cartography expert, the junction (assumption) of the Verde and Salt rivers is 18 miles west of the Superstition mountains. Also Padre Sedelmayer was obviously a really poor map maker. The junction of the Salt/Verde (assumption) with the Gila is nearly 50 miles north and 140 miles east of the junction of the Gila with the Colorado - not due east 50 miles miles as Padre Sedelmayer shows on his map. The Gila actually turns south and then east after the junction with the Salt, Sedelmayer missed that entirely. This is known as the Gila bend, interestingly Sedelmayer described the bend in his diary but left it out on his map.

You might notice all the pretty mountains on this map. Notice how all the mountains range east west in Arizona? Do I really need to explain how wrong this is? The reason the mountains are all east west is because when viewed only from the river all mountains appear to run parralell to your path. There is no third dimension (north/south) unless you actually travel to the mountains and see how far they extend to the north or south. Sedelmayer never did that, he stuck to the river. You should read his Diary. He's quite clear where he traveled on the Gila and Colorado rivers. He did not stray much from the river banks except when he was preaching to the native villages.

P Kino was the first European to discover the Salt and Verde rivers. He did that by viewing the junction of the rivers from the south on the top of the Estrella mountains in 1697. Although Kino explored the irrigation works on the banks of the lower Salt and Verde rivers later he did not visit the junction of those rivers or their junction with the Gila. If you knew the area you would understand why it was a big deal that Sedelmayer actually physically made it to those junctions nearly 50 years later. Study baseline to understand those problems.



I guess it's fair to call Sedelmayer a German. There was no German state until 1871 but Sedelmayer's origin was Bavaria which became the core of the later German nation.

Now comes the big question. WTF does any of this have to do with the original subject posted? Are you intentionally trying to take this thread off track or are you just incapable of discussing anything outside of your confirmation bias?

I suggest you start your own thread unless you have something factual to contribute on this thread.

Oh you haven’t offended me in the least bit. This interchange is fun to me and I even enjoy the jolt these tired threads have received from you lately. You aren’t the first poster to come in here brandishing some sort of intellectual might, trying to tell everyone they’re barking up the wrong tree and you won’t be the last. Nonetheless, it’s good to have someone come along once in a while to shake up the status quo.

First you insisted on being a grammar nazi, so I’m merely obliging you. You said “to Moqui” which denotes that word as a place. Again, not the correct usage of that word. Here’s an example of the proper usage:

And again I posted that map for no other reason than to point out the error in the sentence you used, and I am quoting your statement again verbatim: “It wasn't until after the Spanish era that the area North of Casa Grande, including the Superstitions, was explored.” That map clearly shows your statement to be completely in error. There are plenty of textual evidence, but I thought I’d use a map since that’s the language you speak.

And since you seem very upset that I’ve hijacked your thread, do let’s get back on subject. I’ll phrase my question again to you again (and I’m just curious), what makes you think those Stone Maps have anything to do with the Peraltas?

 

[Clay Diggins]

And since you seem very upset that I’ve hijacked your thread, do let’s get back on subject. I’ll phrase my question again to you again (and I’m just curious), what makes you think those Stone Maps have anything to do with the Peraltas?

I see you haven't yet gotten past the first few posts on this thread. It sure would help if you actually read what I wrote before commenting on it. I already explained that before you asked the question. I wasn't ignoring your question I had already answered it more than three weeks before you asked it in the beginning of the thread. I had hoped you would actually read the thread and realize your error.

Here I'll help you along. The post was on the first page and I made it on April 4th.

Peralta Cabbage?

I've always wondered why the first "Peralta" stone map has the most prominent inscription: EL COBOLLO DE SANTA FE There is no current use of the word cobollo in Spanish but some older Spanish documents used it as an extension of the noun "col" which is the Spanish root word for cabbage family...

www.treasurenet.com

Read the words as sentences and you will see the explanation:

"For my part I'm just looking for a reasonable explanation based on facts or knowledge what the non word cobollo means and how that would fit in with the pony and the magician and all the rest. It would be nice to know what facts could lead so many people to believe these stones are connected to a Mexican family. It would be nice to know what facts could lead so many people to believe these stones are connected to Waltz."

All caught up now?

 

[coazon de oro]

Well that is the closest I've seen on this thread at a real shot at defining cobollos. "Land of the Rabe". I doubt it's the solution but I must admit to a certain logic. Perhaps the mapmaker mistook the barrel cactus and prickly pear for broccoli, kale and cabbage?

Ah - so you have decided I don't believe there is a Lost Dutchman mine? I hate to disappoint you but I have no belief one way or another about the LDM. I've seen no facts to support the existence of a mine but likewise I have seen no facts to refute the mine - other than all the searchers who have failed and in some instances died. Granted, on balance the evidence favors no mine but that's not enough to reach a conclusion.

I hate to disappoint you but I have no belief one way or another about the LDM. I've seen no facts to support the existence of a mine but likewise I have seen no facts to refute the mine - other than all the searchers who have failed and in some instances died. Granted, on balance the evidence favors no mine but that's not enough to reach a conclusion.

I can't prove a negative no matter how many times other's fail to locate any mine works or mineralization. When you believe in things you can't understand that's superstition. Not a pun on the mountains and not a knock on those that do believe without knowledge. I don't believe in things I don't understand - instead I try to understand those things. In part that's what this thread is about.

So do you have any thoughts you would like to share about why this stone has the non word COBOLLO inscribed so prominently on it? I shared my theory, do you have one Homar?

Howdy Mr. Diggins,

I did not decide that you did, or didn't believe in the LDM's existence. What I said is that you as other great miners, believe that if the LDM does exist, it would more likely be where other locatable minerals have been found. You even showed us a map of where the mineralized areas are. It makes a lot of sense, but gold is where you find it.

My thoughts on the word "COBOLLO", it is simply a misspelling, Since there is a picture of a horse, and not a cabbage, and since horses graze unlike a cabbage, it was more than likely a misspelling. "COAZON" is also a misspelling of "CORAZON", but we also have the actual heart shaped stone, and cavity to verify that it was a misspelling.

Some of us tend to make spelling errors, or at least I do. Then there a some who pronounce a word different than others, like snake in Spanish is "VIVORA", yet I heard one guy say "WIWORA". He would more than likely write it the way he pronounced it.

Homar

 

[JohnWhite]

Of course there are those who believe “colache” actually means “collage”…I have always considered the word being a shredded squash dish…But what do I knowMaybe it does actually mean collage as well…I guess it all depends upon the way a person views any matter…

Ed T🫣

 

[deducer]

I see you haven't yet gotten past the first few posts on this thread. It sure would help if you actually read what I wrote before commenting on it. I already explained that before you asked the question. I wasn't ignoring your question I had already answered it more than three weeks before you asked it in the beginning of the thread. I had hoped you would actually read the thread and realize your error.

Here I'll help you along. The post was on the first page and I made it on April 4th.

Peralta Cabbage?

I've always wondered why the first "Peralta" stone map has the most prominent inscription: EL COBOLLO DE SANTA FE There is no current use of the word cobollo in Spanish but some older Spanish documents used it as an extension of the noun "col" which is the Spanish root word for cabbage family...

www.treasurenet.com

Read the words as sentences and you will see the explanation:

"For my part I'm just looking for a reasonable explanation based on facts or knowledge what the non word cobollo means and how that would fit in with the pony and the magician and all the rest. It would be nice to know what facts could lead so many people to believe these stones are connected to a Mexican family. It would be nice to know what facts could lead so many people to believe these stones are connected to Waltz."

All caught up now?

You are using that term, quotation marks notwithstanding. Nobody is forcing you to do that. So what makes you do that? Just because it's the general consensus?

And you accuse me of confirmation bias?

I myself, have never used the term "Peralta Stone Maps."

And as for "Cobollo," to add more context, you may want to flip the stone to the other side. There, you will find three more "errors": bereda, peligroza, and coazon.

The interesting thing about "bereda" (the correct spelling is Vereda, for path, lane, or "narrow way"), is that in Spanish, as you know, "b" and "v" are pronounced exactly the same way. And that kind of spelling error, if you perceive it that way, would have had to be made by someone who was either a semi-illiterate Spanish speaker, or if by someone perpetuating a hoax, this someone had to know of that distinction to leave that kind of intricate clue. But why bother? What does that do?

And then why butcher the word "corazon"?

It's easy to point the finger at DeGrazia but his roots were Italian, not Spanish.

 

[Clay Diggins]

You are using that term, quotation marks notwithstanding. Nobody is forcing you to do that. So what makes you do that? Just because it's the general consensus?

And you accuse me of confirmation bias?

I myself, have never used the term "Peralta Stone Maps."

And yet you just did use the term "Peralta Stone Maps."

And as for "Cobollo," to add more context, you may want to flip the stone to the other side. There, you will find three more "errors": bereda, peligroza, and coazon.

The interesting thing about "bereda" (the correct spelling is Vereda, for path, lane, or "narrow way"), is that in Spanish, as you know, "b" and "v" are pronounced exactly the same way. And that kind of spelling error, if you perceive it that way, would have had to be made by someone who was either a semi-illiterate Spanish speaker, or if by someone perpetuating a hoax, this someone had to know of that distinction to leave that kind of intricate clue. But why bother? What does that do?

And then why butcher the word "corazon"?

I was going to get to the other mispellings. Do you have any idea why those words are so badly mangled. Also why weren't the other "a"s replaced with "o"s?

As far as a semi-illiterate Spanish speaker, It's a theory. It might even be a possibility I would consider except the misspellings are not phonetic mistakes. Coazon is not phonetically similar to corazon. The same could be said to be true of Caballo and coballo.

It's easy to point the finger at DeGrazia but his roots were Italian, not Spanish.

DeGrazia was of Italian descent but grew up speaking Spanish. He studied art with Diego Rivera in Mexico City and helped him create two murals in Mexico. He also worked with Orozco during his time in Mexico. He married his second wife while in Mexico. His "style" was considered to be Mexican influenced.

I heard DeGrazia speak Spanish but I don't know if he was proficient in writing Spanish.

It's certainly well within the realm of possibility that DeGrazia is the author of the stones. It fits his style and history.

 

[deducer]

And yet you just did use the term "Peralta Stone Maps."

I was going to get to the other mispellings. Do you have any idea why those words are so badly mangled. Also why weren't the other "a"s replaced with "o"s?

As far as a semi-illiterate Spanish speaker, It's a theory. It might even be a possibility I would consider except the misspellings are not phonetic mistakes. Coazon is not phonetically similar to corazon. The same could be said to be true of Caballo and coballo.


DeGrazia was of Italian descent but grew up speaking Spanish. He studied art with Diego Rivera in Mexico City and helped him create two murals in Mexico. He also worked with Orozco during his time in Mexico. He married his second wife while in Mexico. His "style" was considered to be Mexican influenced.

I heard DeGrazia speak Spanish but I don't know if he was proficient in writing Spanish.

It's certainly well within the realm of possibility that DeGrazia is the author of the stones. It fits his style and history.

I'll rephrase it one more time- I don't use the phrase "Peralta Stone Maps" to describe the Stone Maps. Nothing on them suggest any sort of relationships with the Peraltas, other than maybe the "Pedro" found within the horse itself, and "Miguel" found on top on the H/P stone. Far from being conclusive.

On the face of it, the phrases on this particular stone do seem to be a collection of phonetic mistakes, ("Bereda" and "Boy") and misspellings: "Cobollo, Peligroza, and Coazon." Was that really the case, or were the errors intentional? Do they hide something?

DeGrazia did not quite grow up speaking Spanish, he spent most of his formative years in the states as well as five years back in Italy during his early teens. He did apprentice in Mexico City under Diego Rivera and married his second wife there. Both women he married were American, though. His art underwent a change in style in the latter half of the 1940's focusing primarily on "happy colors" using a palette knife. He's been accused by critics of being a self-promoter and a commercial artist.

So with that in mind, what would DeGrazia's purpose be in creating the Stone Maps? Why go to extraordinary lengths in carving and creating something he did not profit by, monetary or publicly? And why did they suddenly end up in the hands of a policeman from Texas who kept these stones a secret until his death in 1961?

Another point to ponder is that the Stone Maps first surfaced around the 1940's, around the time DeGrazia was still struggling as an artist, as well as managing a theater (which he resented). He was in the middle of separating from his first wife. He also had to borrow $25 from one of his brothers to buy land near Tucson.

His commercial fame did not come until the 1950's and only really took off in 1960 after UNICEF solicited one of his painting to use on a Christmas card.

Would he have tried this very unprofitable stunt at time when he was really struggling to make ends meet?

 

[Clay Diggins]

DeGrazia himself stated that he grew up speaking English, Spanish and Apache. He grew up in Morenci, Arizona. A large part of the Morenci population, then and now, speak Spanish everyday. Arizona mining towns are like that. I worked with DeGrazia in the early 70's and heard him speak Spanish quite often.

As far as crazy stunts with no payoff... DeGrazia was known for them. During the 40's and 50's he was well known for drinking heavily while trying to sell his art on the street. This lead to a bunch of drunk antics in his frustration to try to sell his $3 paintings. By the 60's he was organizing publicity stunts at the University. He was a show man that made his living by promoting himself. I saw him do several crazy stunts that seemed to have no purpose when we were acquainted. These stunts didn't have a pay off except to ensure he had everyone's attention.

If you study his efforts throughout his career you will find he worked in many medium, including soft stone, and ultimately ended up with a huge collection of unsellable junk. Many of his friends thought this was the real reason for his "art" burning. He had so much junk in his studio that wouldn't sell it was seen as lowering the perceived quality of his painted art. If you had visited his studio during this time you would know how bad this pile of "stuff" had gotten. Although he didn't burn all this stuff when he did the art burning stunt it somehow was cleared away from his studio during the same time.

I don't know about the history of the "nameless" cabbage stone. All we have is a set of different stories through the years. Do you have any factual evidence that the "nameless" cabbage stone actually existed before 1960?

As I wrote before. There is no evidence these "unnamed" stones have any relationship to Waltz , the Peralta families or a gold mine. In fact I can find there is no evidence that they are intended to be a map. Considering the implications I think it's at least reasonable to consider they are a prank.

It is a simple fact that these stones are known collectively as the "Peralta Stone" even though there is no known relationship between any of the many Peralta familes or a map in these stones. Even so you might want to face reality some day and admit that these stones are considered by the public to be THE Peralta stones. Of course you are welcome to call them the cabbage stones or my dirty socks if you want but no one will know what you are writing about.

 

[markmar]

As I wrote, from my experience in reading Spanish/Mexican/Jesuit treasure maps, the words on the Horse-Priest stone tablet were not misspelled, but written on purpose, These " wrong " words validate the authenticity of the stone tablet as a map which has a Spanish concept of treasure map making.
Everything is depicted on the stone tablet, including words, lines, shapes and even the contour of the tablet, are an exact copy of lines on the ground which follow rows of rocks which with their directions, determine the image on the stone tablet. So when someone will be at the right place and will see/read the shapes and the misspelled words on the ground, following the Spanish treasure maps concept, will be sure he would be at the right spot.
Why to write on the tablet VOY or VEREDA when on the ground could be recognized BOY and BEREDA? At last the meaning would be get. Only the word COAZON hides a code which is in the meaning of the letter " R " which is missing.
We can see the same letter "R" on the Trail stone tablets, which it's also a Spanish treasure code.
Here is an overlay on the ground using a picture of the Priest, just to see how all the contours of " his " body ( arms , head, etc ) and whatever is depicted on the tablet, are shapes which follow rows of rocks on the ground. Enjoy

 

[markmar]

The first batch of Jesuits that came over to continue the effort of ministering to the Pimeria Alta after Kino passed in 1711, were actually German Jesuits, these Jesuits were very well educated, particularly in metallurgy and cartography.



Two things about this statement. First, Moqui doesn't refer to a place, it refers to a people, the Móókwi or the self-designated name of who we today know as the Hopi.

And your statement that the area north of Casa Grande or even the area today known as the Superstitions wasn't explored until after the Spanish era is incorrect. Since you profess to be a cartographer, I will give you this map to study.

Note the name P. Sedelmayer (P standing for Padre). He was one of the German Jesuits sent over. And he wasn't even the first Jesuit up there.

View attachment 2081093

" The land of the Cruciferous ", very well said/written. A lot of history behind these words, starting from Solomon's Ophir ( from ancient Greek word Ophis which means snake) and following all the chasing process by the newcoming researchers through the centuries, changing names from Ophir to Calalus to Cibola, etc.
The only good thing of all this history, is all who came and found that place for their own reasons, left their treasures there, under specific circumstances.

 

[deducer]

As far as crazy stunts with no payoff... DeGrazia was known for them. During the 40's and 50's he was well known for drinking heavily while trying to sell his art on the street. This lead to a bunch of drunk antics in his frustration to try to sell his $3 paintings. By the 60's he was organizing publicity stunts at the University. He was a show man that made his living by promoting himself. I saw him do several crazy stunts that seemed to have no purpose when we were acquainted. These stunts didn't have a pay off except to ensure he had everyone's attention.

It seems to me that you've just painted quite a convincing portrait of DeGrazia as a self-promoter, attention-seeker, and a huckster. If it wasn't to sell his artwork, it was at least to generate attention which in itself is a payoff. Hardly the type of person who would fabricate the Stone Maps and not say a single word about it.

I don't know about the history of the "nameless" cabbage stone. All we have is a set of different stories through the years. Do you have any factual evidence that the "nameless" cabbage stone actually existed before 1960?

The provenance and history of the Stone Maps have been covered extensively, many times over on this forum. The way you speak, it doesn't seem as if you spent much time or effort on this portion; I suggest you go over the Bair and Schultz materials, the Tumlinson/Leasman/Mitchell stuff, the Peck investigation, the Brower/Love letters, et al. One example: The Peck investigation established that Robert Tumlinson, in 1956, approached and secured funding from a Dr. Gene Davis, to go into the Superstitions on expeditions related to the Stone Maps.

It is a simple fact that these stones are known collectively as the "Peralta Stone" even though there is no known relationship between any of the many Peralta familes or a map in these stones. Even so you might want to face reality some day and admit that these stones are considered by the public to be THE Peralta stones. Of course you are welcome to call them the cabbage stones or my dirty socks if you want but no one will know what you are writing about.

Really? Weren't you just lecturing me about confirmation bias? About establishing a baseline? If I were to go along with the opinion of what you term the "public," wouldn't that be failing to establish an objective baseline?

And au contraire, the term "Stone Maps" have been used fairly often.

"Peralta cabbage," on the other hand, is pretty much something absolutely nobody would understand, so good luck with that.