Olber Manifest, and other fables of fantasy

[cactusjumper]

Hal,

"I am going to ask Matthew many things tonight in an email.
Before I do, do you know if he was compensated for the information in Helen's book?
Simple question."

Of course I know the answer to your "Simple question". No he did not get "compensated" with cash. On the other hand, I doubt he ever asked for anything, other then to get his information written in a book by Helen Corbin. You might say he was building his reputation, an ongoing project for a number of years, with the help of others.

Do you have Jane Eppinga's "Apache Junction And The Superstition Mountains"? Why don't you ask him about the picture and write up on page 38, "Courtesy of Greg Davis." Is the story written there about William E. Roberts, a man called Edwards and himself roaming the mountains as a young man true? If so, just how old was he. That's an important question, as the man named Edwards was a source for part of the massacre legend.

Lots of questions to ask if you know all that he was the source for, and all the deleted posts he has made disappear over the years. Do you actually know that history? While Greg Davis was the source for many of the Aurum posts, that many of us still have, he will not claim authorship of them. Aurum will say that someone else wrote or changed them. He will probably make the same claim for all of the letters and emails I have from him.

I have already asked all of the questions you, or someone else, may ask you to ask. I already have the answers. If you actually knew what to ask, you would have all the answers.

If you believe I/we have done a shoddy job of research, or had an ulterior motive to do harm to my "friend", ask people like Bob Corbin, Tom Kollenborn, Thomas Glover, Roy and Beth Decker who have all spent nights in our home. Even Greg Davis has been here. That's the short list of people who have accepted our hospitality and have some idea of my character and abilities.

Good luck in your own research. Mine is, pretty much, done.

Joe Ribaudo

I guess my answer was just too "simple" to show up on your complicated radar. The problem for you, Hal, is that you don't really know the story you are seeking to explain to those of us who have lived it. I am not obsessed with your friend, I just become interested when he tries to get me banned.

Try reading my replies to you, before you explain how simple your questions are. I have always tried to answer everyone's questions, to the best of my abilities. I won't be making anything up to impress folks. What I have told folks on these forums, about myself and my family is the truth.

If you prefer some king of dime-store novel, I believe you are going down the right path. Just ignore my broken down a$$. I have enough friends who appreciate me for what I have done, what I do and just admire plain speaking.

When he first started posting over here, I warned him not to try the same game he used over on DUSA, as these folks would actually go back and read the offending posts (simple questions), which I'm sure you understand.

Take care,

Joe Ribaudo

 

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[Oroblanco]

"Let's" as if it was about me being included in your diversion flack tactic some how? You jumped on me. As you also do others who seek truth and fact. Stop doing that and the (technically non-existent) problem you seek to solve which is entirely a fabrication you yourself created by your own actions will not need your further interference.

Hope you find some treasure, pal ....

Dude, "jumped" on you? By answering your post?

I don't know what your problem is, if you have something to contribute to this topic then please feel free. Otherwise perhaps starting your own thread might be a good idea?

CW0909, great find, unfortunately there are quite a few Jacob Waltz names scattered around the US so that one MAY or may NOT be the right one. The country of origin listed as Wurtembourg however would seem to indicate it is a different Jacob Waltz, as Waltz listed his native origin as Prussia on a census. Also the date of birth is close, would be about 1810, but again from the AZ census it would seem to be 1808. Hard to say at this point in time.

 

[gollum]

"Let's" as if it was about me being included in your diversion flack tactic some how? You jumped on me. As you also do others who seek truth and fact. Stop doing that and the (technically non-existent) problem you seek to solve which is entirely a fabrication you yourself created by your own actions will not need your further interference.

Hope you find some treasure, pal ....

CN,

Now, we have been playing nicely for a while. I think everybody that knows Roy, knows what you state is patently untrue:

You jumped on me. As you also do others who seek truth and fact.

Roy is a known quantity here on TNet (and many other places). We have had our back and forths over the years, but he has NEVER attacked anyone without first feeling attacked. He has no issues signing his name to a post, while others choose to attack others behind the anonymity of the internet.

I WOULD LIKE TO ASK EVERYBODY PARTICIPATING IN THIS DISCUSSION TO HELP WITH A LITTLE STUDY; IF YOU BELIEVE AS CN SAYS THAT ROY "DOES TO OTHERS THAT SEEK THE TRUTH", THEN LIKE HIS POST. IF YOU AGREE WITH ME THAT ROY IS ONLY REACTING TO HIS TREATMENT BY CN, THEN LIKE MY POST.

LET'S LEAVE THIS TO POPULAR OPINION!

Mike

 

[cw0909]

CW0909, great find, unfortunately there are quite a few Jacob Waltz names scattered around the US so that one MAY or may NOT be the right one. The country of origin listed as Wurtembourg however would seem to indicate it is a different Jacob Waltz, as Waltz listed his native origin as Prussia on a census. Also the date of birth is close, would be about 1810, but again from the AZ census it would seem to be 1808. Hard to say at this point in time.

Oroblanco, , the doc i posted that says Jacob Waltz is from Wurtembourg, is his
Petition for Naturalization, from Helen Corbin book. The other docs from the WPA
in 1942 does not list a Jacob Waltz Petitioning for Naturalization in Adams county
natchez mississippi. so maybe your right the Jacob from the doc in Helen book
may not be the right Jacob
when i google Wurtembourg i get Wurttemberg, guess ill have to see if Prussia ever claimed/owned Wurtembourg/ Wurttemberg. what year did Jacob claim Prussia on the census

 

[gollum]

CW0909,

The Jacob Waltz from your card is the same Jacob Waltz that sailed from La Havre, France to New York on The Ship Ville de Lyon on 13 July 1839. Here is the passenger list from the ISTG Website. Note that Waltz is the last person on the list, and notice what he claims as home (Wirtemburg):



and should someone get suspicious about Waltz's name just happening to be the very last one, here are the final several names from the original manifest:



Here is also the Naturalization Card from MISSOURI:



Here is also a record of Jacob Waltz arriving in New Orleans aboard the Ship Dublin on 18 NOVEMBER 1843:





It is a two page document, so I cut out the main items. It doesn't show job or place of origin, it does say he crossed the Atlantic with four boxes, a bed, and bedding. Funny thing is, this passenger list is not on ISTG. It is from Ancestry.com.

.......and here is a bit about Wurtemburg:



Mike

P.S.

Forgot a couple of other things:


Something is wrong with this card. It seems our Jacob mixed up his dates of naturalization. Says here 25 April 1861, but the following two Petitions For Naturalization are from 25 APRIL 1849 and 07 DECEMBER 1861.

Waltz's Petition for Naturalization on 25 April 1849:



...and another from 07 December 1861:

 

[Oroblanco]

Here is the 1880 Maricopa county census listing Jacob Waltz: (hope this works)



He is the first name at the top of the list, and names his native country as Prussia. Wurtembourg (spelled various ways) was a separate state/country until German unification wars https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Württemberg so it would not have been considered a province of Prussia until long after Waltz had left.

There are a number of Jacob Waltz's which is what makes it so tough to nail down exactly which one was "our" Jacob? Heck there is even one from PA and another in MO.

To make matters worse, the records for the ships that arrived in San Francisco in the big gold rush era *1849-* only listed the names of passengers that paid for first and second class tickets, the cheapest class of tickets were called "steerage" (they rode in the belly of the ship) and some of the ships carried literally hundreds of "steerage" passengers, which are not named at all just a number for how many there were. If Waltz came by that route, and I now suspect that is the way he came to America, there is every chance his name would not be listed at all if he came by the cheapest "steerage" ticket.

Interesting posts amigos, please do continue! And THANK YOU to mi amigo Mike for the kind words, ConceptualizedNetherlander seems to have a bone to pick with me; I did try to be friendly with him when he first joined T-net but he did not wish that.

 

[Oroblanco]

PS apparently it posted the same page twice, sorry about that! At least it posted for me! Jacob Waltz is also named on at least two other relevant documents for Arizona, as well as the petitions, the claims in the Bradshaws and of course the obituary. So he was a real person, sorry to our nay-sayers.

 

[cw0909]

not sure ill get this typed out b4 the wifi router says crap lol,have to
check the settings again

so the doc in Helen book may be the wrong doc for the Jacob in az
geeze, ok ill keep looking, thanks Mike and Oroblanco,i ran across
some letters home from 2 guys traveling across land to cal. for the
gold rush, havent had much time to read them to see if they mention
a Jacob Waltz, maybe over the wkd i can look through some of them
they are here
gold rush letters from 2 Missourians
Gold Rush Letters Digital Collection

PS: yes i think the Jacob Waltz in AZ was a real person too
i just cant see anyone going to those lengths for a hoax
story about a man and a gold mine years ahead of his death
IE owned land and the census

 

[cactusjumper]

All,

Just a little side note here, but we received a Christmas card from Baker Looney yesterday. He still seems sharp and full of life, although I know he must have had a very difficult year. Baker remains one of the best people I have ever met on the LDM trail. Those who don't know him, have missed out on having a great man for a friend.

Merry Christmas to all,

Joe Ribaudo

 

[cactusjumper]

One of the greatest tragedies in life is the murder of a beautiful theory by a gang of brutal facts.
Benjamin Franklin

Joe Ribaudo

 

[ConceptualizedNetherlandr]

Dude, "jumped" on you? By answering your post?

Exactly, by what you call an answer in your post #82. Instead of contributing and answering the question or responding to the content of the post you jumped on me with your opinion that it was in the wrong place. You did the sidetrack.

I don't know what your problem is, if you have something to contribute to this topic then please feel free. Otherwise perhaps starting your own thread might be a good idea?

the very idea that there exists a rich mine once worked by some guy supposedly waltz and is to this day undiscovered and is located in the Supes is a fable of fantasy. I merely asked if anyone cared to share any proof to the contrary with "What if any proven/known/verified facts do we have?". Couldn't be more on topic. Now please go away and take your sock puppet side kick with you and leave me alone until you decide to be honest.

CW0909, great find, unfortunately there are quite a few Jacob Waltz names scattered around the US so that one MAY or may NOT be the right one. The country of origin listed as Wurtembourg however would seem to indicate it is a different Jacob Waltz, as Waltz listed his native origin as Prussia on a census. Also the date of birth is close, would be about 1810, but again from the AZ census it would seem to be 1808. Hard to say at this point in time.

 

[Oroblanco]

Exactly, by what you call an answer in your post #82. Instead of contributing and answering the question or responding to the content of the post you jumped on me with your opinion that it was in the wrong place. You did the sidetrack.

Wrong, you were shifting the subject matter away from the fable/fictional, to the true.

ConceptualizedNetherlandr also wrote

the very idea that there exists a rich mine once worked by some guy supposedly waltz and is to this day undiscovered and is located in the Supes is a fable of fantasy.

Equals YOUR OPINION. Not fact. Do some research if you are interested in the Lost Dutchman mine at all. If you believe there is nothing to it, why are you here? Didn't we go over this some time ago, before your last episode earning a vacation from T-net?

ConceptualizedNetherlandr also wrote

I merely asked if anyone cared to share any proof to the contrary with "What if any proven/known/verified facts do we have?". Couldn't be more on topic.

There are older thread in which this has been discussed, of course you are free to start a new one if you desire.

ConceptualizedNetherlandr also wrote

Now please go away and take your sock puppet side kick with you and leave me alone until you decide to be honest.

No. You do not get to tell anyone whether they can be here on the forum or participate. Sock puppet? Really? You have a serious attitude problem, I suggest you take a deep breath, have a nice cup of tea or whatever you drink, and chill. Oh and by the way, if you read the current, ongoing threads you would see that I just posted solid proof that Jacob Waltz existed and was living in AZ in 1880, by the census. So much for your "fantasy" opinion. If you did some research on the topic instead of demanding that others do it FOR you, you would know it. RIF.

Wishing everyone reading this a very Merry Christmas,
Oroblanco

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Mike I have fouind that Oro speaks the truth. Course he is mistaken on Naranjal, the Cabollas

 

[ConceptualizedNetherlandr]

Wrong, you were shifting the subject matter away from the fable/fictional, to the true.

ConceptualizedNetherlandr also wrote


Equals YOUR OPINION. Not fact. Do some research if you are interested in the Lost Dutchman mine at all. If you believe there is nothing to it, why are you here? Didn't we go over this some time ago, before your last episode earning a vacation from T-net?

ConceptualizedNetherlandr also wrote


There are older thread in which this has been discussed, of course you are free to start a new one if you desire.

ConceptualizedNetherlandr also wrote


No. You do not get to tell anyone whether they can be here on the forum or participate. Sock puppet? Really? You have a serious attitude problem, I suggest you take a deep breath, have a nice cup of tea or whatever you drink, and chill. Oh and by the way, if you read the current, ongoing threads you would see that I just posted solid proof that Jacob Waltz existed and was living in AZ in 1880, by the census. So much for your "fantasy" opinion. If you did some research on the topic instead of demanding that others do it FOR you, you would know it. RIF.

Wishing everyone reading this a very Merry Christmas,
Oroblanco

I'll make it simple for you pal... the part that seems to escape you at orbital height. No mine.

Show some evidence of some super rich gold mine in the Supes which has yet to be rediscovered. You can't. Fail some more and then get back to us.

The difference between this and some lost ship laden with valuables is that the ship had a known manifested cargo, was witnessed to set sail at sea and then was lost. It is down there somewhere (unless already plundered). Your supposed lost mine? Meh.

Nothing but conjecture. Or as some would call it, fable and fantasy. You sir have a nice day.

 

[cactusjumper]

CoN,

Since the mine can't be legally worked, what would you consider proof?


Thanks,

Joe Ribaudo

 

[gollum]

Joe,

It doesn't matter what he would consider proof. His attitude makes it very easy to put him BACK on ignore.

CN,

Its very easy to sit in your Luxontronic Blammo 6000 Comfy Chair, and tell everybody that they have to prove something to you. Who are you to ask that of anybody? Not one person here has any sort of obligation to prove ANYTHING to you. Maybe if you didn't act like a complete douche, then we may be more inclined to share things with you. Why is it that you never add anything to any conversation you become a part of? All you do is gainsay everybody here, and tell us all we need to prove something to you.

What I recommend is for you to get off your a$$, and first do some real research. Find an archive. Find ANYTHING FOR YOURSELF! Once you find something on your own rather than berating others for not doing all your work for you, you might actually start enjoying yourself, and become a meaningful part of a discussion, rather than a ................ well, you know what you are!

Mike

 

[Oroblanco]

CoN,

Since the mine can't be legally worked, what would you consider proof?


Thanks,

Joe Ribaudo

Good luck on that aspect Joe, Conceptualized is apparently here to try to discourage anyone from looking for it, and discredit the story.

For you ConceptualizedNetherlandr:


This matchbox, and it is a matchbox not a lighter although it resembles one, was made from ore taken from a candle box beneath Jacob Waltz's deathbed. You may choose to disbelieve that, but both Helen Thomas and Dick Holmes both stated that the candle box ore belonged to Waltz. Waltz stated it came from his mine. He pointed at the Superstition mountains when he was still alive, and told his friends that his mine was there. That gold ore came from a MINE.

Waltz sold some gold ore to help his friends Julia and Reinhardt Petrasch, Julia's adopted son, when they were in financial straits. That gold ore came from a MINE.

Waltz had been a successful prospector before ever coming to Phoenix. He helped discover and claim several good gold mines in the Bradshaw mountains, all of which he sold before moving to Phoenix. None have ore that matches what you can see in that matchbox.

Waltz was seen by several prominent citizens of Tucson selling burro loads of very rich gold ore. They attempted to trail him back to the mine, unsuccessfully. Dick Holmes also attempted to trail Waltz to the mine as well, unsuccessfully as he was caught in the attempt.

Waltz signed petitions while working his mines in the Bradshaws asking for protection against the Indian attacks. There is NO doubt that he was an experienced frontiersman and fairly expert prospector.

Actions speak louder than words. Dick Holmes, Julia Thomas and Reinhardt Petrasch all made repeated attempts to find Waltz's gold mine. Dick Holmes son George "Brownie" Holmes then spent his life hunting for the mine, and his partner Clay Worst did likewise and continues to this day.

The official USGS studies done on the Superstition Wilderness Area have shown indications that gold may exist in the range, as well as silver and copper. Gold mines were discovered just across the highway from the Wilderness Area in what became known as the Goldfield district, and had some rich ore especially the Mormon stope. But gold from one of these mines actually runs right under the highway and inside the State Park, which it would be highly illegal to dig for and would belong to the owner of that mine by law anyway. This establishes that gold deposits are known to exist in the area, and makes it more likely that other deposits, like Waltz's mine, do exist.

You can pan gold in a number of places in the Superstitions. This too supports the idea that a rich gold mine could exist in the range, that may be supplying the placer gold found in the canyons and streams, including Fish creek and Pinto creek for examples.

You have brought NOTHING to this discussion ConceptualizedNetherlandr, not even a first name to call you by rather than typing out your full name. Your sarcastic and snide comments only show how un-educated you are about the topic you are attempting to discredit. If you had spent any of your own time researching the lost Dutchman gold mine, and perhaps tried to be a bit less caustic, you would likely have gotten better results. But for you this is all a game, to discredit the LDM legend. Otherwise it is hard to see why you are on a treasure forum at all, for you are certainly not hunting for the lost Dutchman gold mine. Maybe this kind of thing just isn't for you.

One other thing ConceptualizedNetherlandr, but you are not pleased with the kinds of evidence that exist proving the LDM. It is thin indeed - we have no mine shaft, no recorded mine claim, tax receipts or the like. Yet other lost mines, with considerably LESS evidence, have been found. The famous Silver King mine is one example. A soldier out in the hills found some black rock that was very heavy, and when he brought it back to camp and hit it with a hammer, it proved to be silver. The soldier vanished. Four men heard this tale, without having seen any ore or matchbox made from it, and went in search of that outcropping of black rock. The result was the Silver King mine. There are similar cases as well, like the lost Mojave mine. Nothing but a story for that one, and a rumor that the chief of the Mojaves knew where the mine was. An enterprising prospector followed the chief and discovered the mine. You can stand on the highway west of Quartzsite and look south, and see this once-famous lost mine. But to continue to expect and demand all kinds of evidence, you are not going to get anywhere, and since you are SO convinced it is fictional, there is ZERO chance that you would ever find it because only someone that LOOKS for it will have any chance at all.

Good luck and good hunting amigos, I hope you find the treasures that you seek. Apologies for the OFF-topic post. Anyway it does appear that the Jacob Waltz citizenship documents in Helen Corbin's 'Bible' are probably a different man, based on what Waltz himself put in the census, namely that he was from Prussia.

Oroblanco

 

[Loke]

CW0909,

The Jacob Waltz from your card is the same Jacob Waltz that sailed from La Havre, France to New York on The Ship Ville de Lyon on 13 July 1839. Here is the passenger list from the ISTG Website. Note that Waltz is the last person on the list, and notice what he claims as home (Wirtemburg):
...
Waltz's Petition for Naturalization on 25 April 1849:
View attachment 1247915


...and another from 07 December 1861:
View attachment 1247916

Mike, I have some problems with _most_ signatures of ole Jacob - they are more consistent with _American_ handwriting from that era than German - check out an example ...
https://www.google.com/search?q=19t...=X&ved=0ahUKEwif6225eTJAhVHLyYKHdI0DkUQsAQIIg

 

[Loke]

here's another example ...
Here you can learn Suetterlin / German hand

Infact - if you google for '19th century german handwriting' - there are scores of examples ...

 

[deducer]